FAQ: Shipping

[kemasa]

Exactly!

Correct, but you seem to be missing the point.

Correct! And the requirement that firearms transfers go through a California licensed dealer is also in the PC. It's CPC Section 27545. Why do you claim that C&R FFLs are exempt from CPC 27545 for all C&R long guns. You just keep saying "it's different for C&R FFLs". CPC 2745 says it applies to anybody who is not a California licensed dealer. That means it applies to C&R FFLs too.

Have you looked at all of the exemptions throughout the CA PC?

You're reading the wrong section of the law. The part you quote has to do with transfers that happen in California. It is for C&R long guns only and requires that the C&R FFL have a COE. The five day requirement that I'm talking about is for C&R handguns purchased while the C&R FFL is outside California. Starting next year it applies to C&R long guns as well, and the reporting requirement is still five days for both handguns and long guns.

Really? 27565(3) specifically says a handgun and there is no wording which says that changes in 2014.

Did you read 27966?

But they must also comply with the laws of the State they are in. Having an FFL doesn't just exempt you from State laws, unless a State actually writes the exemption into their laws.

No exemption is needed if it is not prohibited.

It's funny that you say that. The only reason California law requires C&R handguns have to go through a dealer is because of CPC 27545 and that section applies to long guns as well. Why do you claim that C&R handguns have to go through a dealer and not C&R long guns? You seem to be claiming that C&R FFLs are exempt from CPC 27545. If that's the case (it's not) then why would you think C&R handguns have to go through a dealer? It doesn't make sense.

27545? Interesting as there are many exemptions for that. C&R handguns are specifically mentioned, which is why.

Yes, there are all kinds of exemptions in the CPC for people with C&R FFLs. But just because C&R FFLs are exempt from some CPC sections it doesn't make them exempt from all CPC sections.

I never said it did, did I? The question is whether you have gone through all of the CA PC to see what you are claiming is true. It is difficult, to say the least, to follow everything and looking at one CA PC section is not good enough. Perhaps what you saying is correct, but perhaps not.

The code section that requires firearms transfers in California to go through a California licensed dealer applies to all transactions "Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915." C&R FFLs do not hold a dealer's license, so they are subject to this section of the law just like non-licensees are. That means they are restricted to receiving 50+ year old C&R long guns. You seem to be claiming that California C&R FFLs are exempt from this section of the law for some other reason, but you won't post what it is.

I have posted it, but you are not listening. There are numerous exemptions, written different ways, which makes it hard to tell what the actual case is. You can't just look at one section and ignore all the exemptions.

The law doesn't work that way. The law generally tells you what's illegal to do, not what's legal to do. California law says firearms transfers in California have to go through a California licensed dealer. There is an exemption for C&R long guns that are over 50 years old. Starting next year there is an exemption for C&R long guns of any age, but the receiving party must have a C&R FFL and a COE.

Exactly. You are pointing to one CA PC section and ignoring all others. A search of "27545" which also has exemptions in the same line (if it is on the next line I did not find it and include it) in the CA PC results in:

26361-26391:any of the exemptions from Section 27545, so long as that handgun is
27500-27590:exemption from Section 27545.
27850-27966:27850. (a) Section 27545 does not apply to a sale, delivery, or
27850-27966:27855. Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or
27850-27966:27860. Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or
27850-27966:27865. Section 27545 does not apply to sales, deliveries, or
27850-27966:27870. Section 27545 does not apply to the transfer of a firearm,
27850-27966:27875. Section 27545 does not apply to the transfer of a handgun,
27850-27966:27880. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm
27850-27966:27885. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm if all
27850-27966:27890. Section 27545 does not apply to the delivery of a firearm to
27850-27966:27895. Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, delivery, or
27850-27966:27900. (a) Section 27545 does not apply to the infrequent sale or
27850-27966:27905. Section 27545 does not apply to the transfer of a firearm if
27850-27966:27910. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm to a
27850-27966:27915. Section 27545 does not apply to a person who takes title or
27850-27966:27920. Section 27545 does not apply to a person who takes title or
27850-27966:27925. (a) Section 27545 does not apply to a person who takes
27850-27966:27930. Section 27545 does not apply to deliveries, transfers, or
27850-27966:27935. Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, delivery, or
27850-27966:27940. Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, delivery, or
27850-27966:27945. Section 27545 does not apply to or affect the following
27850-27966:27950. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm, other
27850-27966:27955. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm if all
27850-27966:27960. (a) Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm if
27850-27966:Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a
27850-27966:requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the
28000:28000. A person who is exempt from Section 27545 or is otherwise
32100-32110:applicable exemption to Section 27545.
33850-33895:33895. Section 27545 does not apply to deliveries, transfers, or

So, have you gone through all of the spaghetti of the CA PC to ensure that it is not legal? Remember, if it is not prohibited, it is not illegal.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

The CA PC documents what is illegal and/or what must be done. It does not document what is legal.

Exactly!

The requirement that a C&R FFL holder report a C&R purchased out of state and brought into CA is in the CA PC.

Correct! And the requirement that firearms transfers go through a California licensed dealer is also in the PC. It's CPC Section 27545. Why do you claim that C&R FFLs are exempt from CPC 27545 for all C&R long guns. You just keep saying "it's different for C&R FFLs". CPC 2745 says it applies to anybody who is not a California licensed dealer. That means it applies to C&R FFLs too.

I said it changes in 2014 and it will no longer be 5 days, but 30 days, so it is not the same for long guns as it is today for handguns.

You're reading the wrong section of the law. The part you quote has to do with transfers that happen in California. It is for C&R long guns only and requires that the C&R FFL have a COE. The five day requirement that I'm talking about is for C&R handguns purchased while the C&R FFL is outside California. Starting next year it applies to C&R long guns as well, and the reporting requirement is still five days for both handguns and long guns.

CPC 27565.
(a) This section applies in the following circumstances:

(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.
(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.
(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.
(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the department in a format prescribed by the department.

It is legal under Federal law for a person with a C&R FFL to receive any C&R firearm.

But they must also comply with the laws of the State they are in. Having an FFL doesn't just exempt you from State laws, unless a State actually writes the exemption into their laws.

CA requires C&R handguns to go through a dealer.

It's funny that you say that. The only reason California law requires C&R handguns have to go through a dealer is because of CPC 27545 and that section applies to long guns as well. Why do you claim that C&R handguns have to go through a dealer and not C&R long guns? You seem to be claiming that C&R FFLs are exempt from CPC 27545. If that's the case (it's not) then why would you think C&R handguns have to go through a dealer? It doesn't make sense.

There are exemptions in the CA PC for those with a C&R FFL, as an example. So please show me where it is illegal for a person with a C&R FFL to receive a C&R long gun.

Yes, there are all kinds of exemptions in the CPC for people with C&R FFLs. But just because C&R FFLs are exempt from some CPC sections it doesn't make them exempt from all CPC sections.

The code section you quoted does not deal with the issue of the person having a C&R FFL.

The code section that requires firearms transfers in California to go through a California licensed dealer applies to all transactions "Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915." C&R FFLs do not hold a dealer's license, so they are subject to this section of the law just like non-licensees are. That means they are restricted to receiving 50+ year old C&R long guns. You seem to be claiming that California C&R FFLs are exempt from this section of the law for some other reason, but you won't post what it is.

Please show me where in the CA PC it allows a person to eat a blueberry muffin in a park on a Sunday.

The law doesn't work that way. The law generally tells you what's illegal to do, not what's legal to do. California law says firearms transfers in California have to go through a California licensed dealer. There is an exemption for C&R long guns that are over 50 years old. Starting next year there is an exemption for C&R long guns of any age, but the receiving party must have a C&R FFL and a COE.

[kemasa]

Can a FFL ship to a private party?

In some cases, yes, such as a return of a firearm for gun smithing work.

Lets say I travel a long distance for a FTF private party transfer/DROS.
Can the FFL then ship the firearm to me after the waiting period?

In that case, no. You need to sign the 4473 at the end of the waiting period and the FFL also has to see your ID again.

[kemasa]

The CA PC documents what is illegal and/or what must be done. It does not document what is legal. The requirement that a C&R FFL holder report a C&R purchased out of state and brought into CA is in the CA PC.

I said it changes in 2014 and it will no longer be 5 days, but 30 days, so it is not the same for long guns as it is today for handguns.

It is legal under Federal law for a person with a C&R FFL to receive any C&R firearm. CA requires C&R handguns to go through a dealer. There are exemptions in the CA PC for those with a C&R FFL, as an example. So please show me where it is illegal for a person with a C&R FFL to receive a C&R long gun. The code section you quoted does not deal with the issue of the person having a C&R FFL.

Please show me where in the CA PC it allows a person to eat a blueberry muffin in a park on a Sunday.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

I don't even know how to reply. You are just quoting random bits of penal code that don't apply to what we are talking about. I talk about California C&R FFLs receiving C&R firearms inside California from people who are not California licensed dealers, and you post a blurb from the penal code about receiving C&R firearms from California licensed dealers. I tell you that California C&R FFLs have to report C&R handguns that they acquire while outside of California within five days of returning to California with the handgun, and you claim it's thirty days. Then you post the penal code section dealing with transfers of C&R long guns that happen inside of California after January 1, 2014.

WTF!?!?

CPC Section 27545 says that in California, when neither party to a transaction is a California licensed dealer, the transaction must go through a California licensed dealer. CPC 27965 exempts C&R long guns that are over 50 years old from this requirement. What is so hard to understand about that? Are you claiming there is another section of the Penal Code that exempts newer C&R long guns? If so, please point it out.

[kemasa]

It's Penal Code Section 27965...

I would not count on that.

There are sections, which that section does not, which reference licensed collectors, as an example:

(d) The person receiving the firearm has a current certificate of
eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710.
(e) The person receiving the firearm is licensed as a collector
pursuant to Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the
regulations issued thereto.

That section does not deal with those who are licensed as a collector, which means it applies to everyone. You need to search for the exemptions for licensed collectors.

...
While outside of California, a California C&R FFL is not subject to California laws. So they can acquire C&R handguns and C&R long guns of any age. When the California legislature realized this some time in the mid to late 1990's they came up with the requirement that C&R FFLs had to register any C&R handguns they acquired while they were outside of California within five days of returning. Starting next year the same will apply to C&R long guns acquired while outside of California.

Actually, that is not quite true. Since it is 30 days:

27966. Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following
requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the
sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in
Section 16730.
(b) The firearm is not a handgun.
(c) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11
of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
(d) The person receiving the firearm has a current certificate of
eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710.
(e) The person receiving the firearm is licensed as a collector
pursuant to Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the
regulations issued thereto.
(f) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person
to whom it is transferred shall forward by prepaid mail, or deliver
in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes
information concerning the individual taking possession of the
firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of
the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete
pursuant to this section shall be provided to them by the department.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Do you have a reference for the requirement that it has to be over 50 years old? The 50 year rule applies to FTF w/o going through a FFL.

It's Penal Code Section 27965...

CPC 27965
(a) If all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:

(1) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.
(2) The firearm is not a handgun.
(3) The firearm is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date but is not a replica, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.

(b) This section shall remain in effect only until January 1, 2014, and as of that date is repealed, unless a later enacted statute, that is enacted before January 1, 2014, deletes or extends that date.

As you know, all firearms transfers in California have to go through a "California licensed dealer" unless there is an exemption. C&R FFLs in California are able to get C&R long guns that are over 50 years old shipped to their door because of the above exemption. C&R handguns and newer C&R rifles don't qualify. So even though a California C&R FFL is exempt from the federal requirement to transfer C&R firearms through a dealer when the firearm is coming from outside of California, they still have to comply with California's dealer transfer requirement on everything except 50+ year old C&R long guns. It's the exact same exemption non-FFLs in California use to transfer 50+ year old C&R long guns, but non-FFLs are limited to transfers between two California residents.

A person with a C&R FFL is a licensee in terms of C&R long guns and the requirement that it go through a dealer applies to a handgun.

California's requirement that it go through a dealer applies to all firearms except those listed in the CPC 27965 exemption.

If the person goes out of state, then can pickup a C&R firearm with a C&R FFL and only for handguns do they have to submit a form. I have to wonder if there was a mistake made.

While outside of California, a California C&R FFL is not subject to California laws. So they can acquire C&R handguns and C&R long guns of any age. When the California legislature realized this some time in the mid to late 1990's they came up with the requirement that C&R FFLs had to register any C&R handguns they acquired while they were outside of California within five days of returning. Starting next year the same will apply to C&R long guns acquired while outside of California.

[GunsAndAmmoGirl]

I would suggest that you call the USPS number from the web page since they are wrong to try to educate them. There is nothing which requires that a firearm be shipped registered, which requires papertape.

Get their names, push the issue by asking to talk to a supervisor and/or postmaster. Realize that they might just be idiots, so don't try to push it too far other than taking names for later use.

You might just need to go to another post office.

You don't need your ID nor your FFL, although it is good to have it.

Thanks for your quick reply Kemasa, and always for your knowledge and sound advice.

[kemasa]

I would suggest that you call the USPS number from the web page since they are wrong to try to educate them. There is nothing which requires that a firearm be shipped registered, which requires papertape.

Get their names, push the issue by asking to talk to a supervisor and/or postmaster. Realize that they might just be idiots, so don't try to push it too far other than taking names for later use.

You might just need to go to another post office.

You don't need your ID nor your FFL, although it is good to have it.

[GunsAndAmmoGirl]

So, reading this has helped a lot, however, is there any updated information regarding shipping a handgun via USPS? Because I was out and about today, I personally took a handgun shipment, inside a flat rate priority mail box, insured and going to another FFL (I am the shipping FFL). They flat out refused saying it needed to be "registered" for an additonal fee of $11.72, and NO clear tape allowed, only brown paper tape..... I did have my ID, FFl license, and the Form 1508 on hand.

Has anyone had this problem or have any suggestions or updated information? Much appreciated in advance. Thanks!

[kemasa]

As of right now this is legal of the C&R rifle is also over 50 years old and the receiving party is a C&R FFL. The person shipping it doesn't need any kind of FFL.

Do you have a reference for the requirement that it has to be over 50 years old? The 50 year rule applies to FTF w/o going through a FFL.

A person with a C&R FFL is a licensee in terms of C&R long guns and the requirement that it go through a dealer applies to a handgun.

The DOJ says that it can go direct if it is over 50 years old, but there was no reference given. If the person goes out of state, then can pickup a C&R firearm with a C&R FFL and only for handguns do they have to submit a form. I have to wonder if there was a mistake made.

[EOD Guy]

Just to be clear this is only from a manufacturer and doesn't pertain to when someone sends in work to a FFL gunsmith, correct?

No. The exception also applies to licensed gunsmiths or repair facioities,

[CifaldiPrecision]

- return of a repaired firearm to its owner by a manufacturer.

.

Just to be clear this is only from a manufacturer and doesn't pertain to when someone sends in work to a FFL gunsmith, correct?

[tenpercentfirearms]

How about just deleting your post asking about it instead? :-)

The Internet is permanent.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

can a C&R03FFL in maryland ship a C&R rifle to a C&R 03FFL in san diego,ca? my buddy says no,the maryland C&R says yes SKS is type of rifle.

As of right now this is legal of the C&R rifle is also over 50 years old and the receiving party is a C&R FFL. The person shipping it doesn't need any kind of FFL.

Starting next year a rifle will no longer need to be over 50 years old, it will just need to be C&R. But the California C&R FFL will also need to have a COE from CalDOJ.