How to become an FFL (gun dealer) in California

[Toby's Tactical]

Do it legit

Having just gone through this process, I can tell you what I experienced in response to all of your questions. You should verify everything to your satisfaction since there are endless pages of local, state, and federal codes that change often.

Is it possible to get and FFL without ever having the intentions of going into business?

No. There is a box on the ATF form that asks this question and says don't bother if you don't plan on making it a profitable business

Do you need to be 'in business' to complete PPTs?

Yes and no. You have to get your FFL and complete lots of other business-related forms and licenses. But you can't get those unless the ATF thinks you are forming a legitimate business. If you tell them you plan on doing PPT's as your business, they will probably issue the license.

If you get a FFL are you now exempt from the 10-day wait?

Yes, for any firearms you buy for your business. Then you can transfer them to yourself with no waiting period. You do not need to file a form 4473 or do a NICS check. I think all you have to do is record the transaction in your bound book (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/brad...-transfer-nics). Similar rules apply to disposition of firearms from your collection (http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.125a)

Basically I am considering getting an FFL if I can circumvent the 10-day wait for myself and maybe knock out a few PPTs a year for people I know. I would be based out of my house and 100% non-profit. I wouldn't be looking to write anything off on my taxes.

Again the ATF wants you to be running a profitable business. Treat it as such when you apply. However, I will let you know that with all of the license fees, insurance, etc. it's not cheap. I've spent well over $1000 on fees and I'm barely up and running. It's going to take a long time to get that back if you are just doing PPT's.

If you win the lotto or beat the stock market, buy all the guns you want from an existing shop and don't mess with the headache of opening a shop. Spend your days shootin' and collectin' guns and not working.

[Toby's Tactical]

So I was following this forum and I got the idea that I wanted to run an FFL out of my home. After calling the San Jose business licence deaprtment they said oh yeah sure no problem, BUT you should call your local PD first. So I did and I actually talked to a nice guy and he said in this day and age it is IMPOSSILE. A couple years ago, yes it was possible.

He said his friend had one and gave it up because the ATF was bugging him at all times of the day at least every few months. Too much of a hassle. He said commercially it is possible, but in a residential district it will not happen. You can get so far with a business license, a FFL, but the road block is the second hand dealer license allowing you to take items on consignment and such.

San Jose Municipal Code expressly prohibits firearm sales and service as a home-based business. It's one thing for the planning department to issue you a business permit. They will likely do so. The bottom of my (Mountain View) permit says that I still need to follow city code. It's not the business permit office's job to interpret the city code. They just issue the licenses.

[t-1]

This thread has been extremely helpful. I'm about a week into the process..Got the business name listed with the county recorder and fictitious name running in the paper as we speak.

I'm fortunate that I live in a county that doesn't require a business license and I'm in an unincorporated area so we shall see if that helps or hurts..

Got my sellers permit and ATF sending me finger print cards in the mail. Will knock out my COE tonight and wait for Live Scan and prints. So far the fees have been….

Business name recorded with the clerk---$30
Sellers permit --Free from BOE
Fictitious name statement in the paper $140
AFT FFL App $200


Prints and Live Scan seen to run about $100…keep your finders crossed..

[Toby's Tactical]

I recently obtained my FFL (07) and SOT, both for manufacturing/sales so I can comment on all of these fees you're going to see. I hope this helps a lot of people who are interested in obtaining their FFL. We see that $150-$200 FFL fee and get excited but there's so much more to it.

Sounds like you are off to a good start. Even if your county doesn't require a business license, you will still need to deal with the local firearms license but it's probably free. Mine was came from Mountain View Police Department; still took a month.

As far as fingerprinting and passport photos for FFL, that cost me $65 (photos + rolling fee on cards but I got an extra fingerprints on paper and photos done for future use), but for the DOJ COE fingerprinting, that cost me $91 ($54 DOJ + $19 FBI + $18 Livescan rolling)

I dug through my records for the following approximate fees and expenses I paid:
California Firearms Dealer license: $115 (http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#3G)
Mag Stripe Reader: $54
Bound book or software: $3 (potentially hundreds if you want to do the electronic version but $3 is a steal at Brownells.)
Handgun Safety Certificate Program Certified Instructor Application: $75
Handgun Safety Certificate Program Certified Instructor Training: $100 (very few can give this class. This and the instructor status are required to both administer the HSC and verify the safe handling demonstration. You could hire someone to come in and do this for you but you'd have to do it every time you got a new customer for the HSC and then again for handgun pickup handling demonstration.)
Handgun Safety Certificates: $150 (book of 10 minimum)
Insurance: $varies but likely hundreds to thousands a year
SOT: $500 (totally optional but you know you want it. Received mine in about a week.)

I'm sure there's something I'm missing but so far we're up to $650+ more for you. I figure I've spent about $1000 just on all these fees and expenses. I don't think anyone can do it for much less as a legitimate business. And then don't forget marketing, stock, etc. Good luck with it all. Don't hesitate to ask for details or help.

[t-1]

I recently obtained my FFL (07) and SOT, both for manufacturing/sales so I can comment on all of these fees you're going to see. I hope this helps a lot of people who are interested in obtaining their FFL. We see that $150-$200 FFL fee and get excited but there's so much more to it.

Sounds like you are off to a good start. Even if your county doesn't require a business license, you will still need to deal with the local firearms license but it's probably free. Mine was came from Mountain View Police Department; still took a month.

As far as fingerprinting and passport photos for FFL, that cost me $65 (photos + rolling fee on cards but I got an extra fingerprints on paper and photos done for future use), but for the DOJ COE fingerprinting, that cost me $91 ($54 DOJ + $19 FBI + $18 Livescan rolling)

I dug through my records for the following approximate fees and expenses I paid:
California Firearms Dealer license: $115 (http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#3G)
Mag Stripe Reader: $54
Bound book or software: $3 (potentially hundreds if you want to do the electronic version but $3 is a steal at Brownells.)
Handgun Safety Certificate Program Certified Instructor Application: $75
Handgun Safety Certificate Program Certified Instructor Training: $100 (very few can give this class. This and the instructor status are required to both administer the HSC and verify the safe handling demonstration. You could hire someone to come in and do this for you but you'd have to do it every time you got a new customer for the HSC and then again for handgun pickup handling demonstration.)
Handgun Safety Certificates: $150 (book of 10 minimum)
Insurance: $varies but likely hundreds to thousands a year
SOT: $500 (totally optional but you know you want it. Received mine in about a week.)

I'm sure there's something I'm missing but so far we're up to $650+ more for you. I figure I've spent about $1000 just on all these fees and expenses. I don't think anyone can do it for much less as a legitimate business. And then don't forget marketing, stock, etc. Good luck with it all. Don't hesitate to ask for details or help.

Again sir--thanks in advance. You truly are a wealth of information! I just heard the term "Firearms dealer license" this past Friday when I got a callback from DOJ. Of all the things that surprise me (so far) is the difference in dealing with ATF and DOJ…The DOJ folks have all been very accommodating and helpful. The ATF folk--um..not really rude, just short and a bit "stiff" I guess.

I have a lunch date with the Sheriff in my area. Huge gun guy and very pro-business so I'll let you know how that goes.

Again--thanks so much for your help. After seeing you're in the MV area, I'm about four hours away, and if this things pans out am excited to have a resource I can go to.

I may PM you in the future for sensitive issues if that's alright.

[efillc]

I'm sure there's something I'm missing but so far we're up to $650+ more for you. I figure I've spent about $1000 just on all these fees and expenses. I don't think anyone can do it for much less as a legitimate business. And then don't forget marketing, stock, etc. Good luck with it all. Don't hesitate to ask for details or help.

You forgot the big kahuna for 06's, 07's, and 10's:
PMDDTC ITAR Registration

[Toby's Tactical]

He didn't say he had one of those types and stated $200 for the fee so I assumed it was 01. But yeah, if you get one of those types and do any manufacturing, the consensus is to pay the fee ($2250).

[t-1]

He didn't say he had one of those types and stated $200 for the fee so I assumed it was 01. But yeah, if you get one of those types and do any manufacturing, the consensus is to pay the fee ($2250).

[t-1]

Sent FFL app out today along with DOJ COE. Spoke with local ATF AIC and she said give it about 4 weeks to hear something...weight off my shoulders just getting that part done. Now----I wait.....

[Toby's Tactical]

Open!

Finally received my CFD in the mail today. That took 2 weeks (literally). The entire process took over 5 months and cost me over $1000. If you can't tell by the long thread, this is not something you should do just to save a few bucks on some guns. However, if you have a passion for firearms and are patient, you can make it happen. I just got a request for an AOW. I wasn't planning to jump off the deep end of the pool but it looks like I just got pushed in!

[jerryballs]

I have read all of these details and I am still a bit foggy.

I am looking to start an FFL07 shop and I am in a county that business license is not required. Would my order be as follows:

1.) get approval letter from zoning/planning
2.)send in FFL paperwork wth Check for fees
3.) File for COE (anytime is ok?)
4.) wait for FFL approval then file for CFD?


I am more curious about process and what needs to be sent in with oringinal FFL paperwork. Meaning the zoning letter, etc... I currently have approval to proceed as long as enviromental, building, fire, and sheriff sign off my use permit/plans. I am wondering if I can send my paperwork in now before I have something in writing from planning (they have already given me paper outlining firearms is an ok use). It sounds like the BATF only wants to see that letter when they visit. is this correct?

Your help is much appreciated as this is a laboring process.

[Toby's Tactical]

Here's the short answer:
1) I don't think you need an approval "letter". For me, the ATF just wanted the city to say there was no restriction. My city planning department screwed up and said I couldn't have my FFL at home which was incorrect. I had to go up the line until I found someone who could clearly say it was not restricted. The final result was an email to the ATF to that effect. If you have a letter, it might save you the trouble I ran into, but I don't see it as a requirement up front. They wouldn't issue the FFL to me until the city said no problem.
2) Send in FFl any time. It's one of the first things I did after checking my city code, mainly the home-based business section.
3) Get your COE any time. You'll need it to submit the CFD.
4) Wait until you get your FFL and send a copy to the DOJ for the CFD. The DOJ encourages submittal of the Large Capacity Magazine Permit at the same time.

[jerryballs]

Thank you so much sir!!

[Toby's Tactical]

I should clarify that of the required documents on the CFD application, there are two items that look similar but are not:
2) Any regulatory or business license, or licenses, required by local government.
5) A license granted by the duly constituted licensing authority of any city, county or city and county.
#2 says ANY and may not apply to everyone. In my city this is a "Business License". Mine was $30.
#5 says license and in my city is called a "Firearms license". This one is essentially required as indicated here: http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#1G. I'm not sure what option 1 means "In the form prescribed by the Attorney General". But options 2 and 3 mean you have to get a letter that says "Valid for Retail Sales of Firearms" or a letter from similar authority that says no such license exists. I ended up with "option" 2 from my local police and was free.

[Toby's Tactical]

To clarify any FUD, the latest ATF newsletter has a section on 'Residence as a Licensed Business Premises' or in other words: home-based. Having just obtained my FFL at home, I can say the ATF never questioned it.

See the newsletter here: http://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-2012-11.pdf. Section is on the right of page 6.