Cap & Ball Revolver question of law

[Lupara]

Friends,

I have a question concerning the California law on what constitutes an antique firearm, exempt from many laws. Reading the law it makes mention of the gun (whether pre-1899 or a replica) not being designed or redesigned to be able to, or readily able to fire centerfire cartridges (paraphrased). I also remember a phrase mentioning that the gun may not be "readily convertible" to be able to fire centerfire carriages (paraphrased).

My question is this: What does this mean in the context of an owner of a replica cap & ball revolver, (Uberti, Pietta, etc) but where companies exist that sell cartridge-capable replacement cylinders. Because companies sell these cylinders that fit perfectly into an owner's cap & ball revolver, does that mean that the owner's cap & ball revolver is now "readily convertible"? Or does it mean that the cap & ball owner must also own the cartridge-capable replacement cylinder for this condition to be enforceable? Is there any case law on this?

Thank you for any facts or opinions

[splithoof]

You will get a few takes on this shortly.
Some will say that it is illegal to use such cartridge conversions.
Some will say otherwise.
Whatever the case may be, I personally have not heard of anyone being prosecuted for using such a cylinder, but then again most of the gun culture folks I know do not ordinarily find themselves in positions where this might become an issue. I would personally transport ANY sidearm (black powder, antique, etc.) in a legal manner, so it has a very low probability of ever being an issue.

I have used such a cylindrical for a Walker replica, and while a chore to use, it is fun. With appropriate smokeless powder loads, there is a lot less of the worry about cleaning right away. No hot soapy water required.

[Lupara]

Thanks for your response Splithoof,

I'm thinking ahead about the direction this crazy state is going. Unconstitutional as it may be, Kalifornia is not afraid to violate our rights whenever it wants. Even if their actions are eventually overturned by SCOTUS years later, in the meantime we are left defenseless.

In the event of a general confiscation, or a specific confiscation targeting me, I want to have a back-up plan; a legal weapon that can skirt a confiscation attempt. So my question is, how does the law define the term "readily convertible" as it has to do with standard cap & ball revolvers. In other words, do I need to choose a cap & ball revolver that does not have companies willing to provide a cartridge conversion cylinder, thus making it comply as "not readily convertible"?

I want it to be as watertight a plan as possible or its a waste of money.

Thanks again for your input.

[Lupara]

This is a the pertinent language used in the federal definition:

For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ?antique firearm? shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

[M1NM]

So my question is, how does the law define the term "readily convertible"

I want it to be as watertight a plan as possible or its a waste of money.

I don't think that question has been tried in the courts. Without case law it's a crap shoot.
It's CA nothing is watertight. Change is inevitable and BP is on their list because in the end it's a gun. Will it happen - yes. Will it happen soon - no.

Mailing a BP gun with a conversion cylinder puts it into the "modern" category. If you buy one from someone have them mail the cylinder separately.

[Lupara]

Thanks M1,

If I go ahead with my plan to purchase a cap & ball revolver, I wouldn't have any plans on acquiring a cartridge conversion cylinder for it anyway. Having this type of weapon as a back-up wouldn't be improved much having a conversion cylinder. They can't really be reloaded quickly either way so there wouldn't be much to be gained for self defense. If 6 shots ain't enough... well, I'm just going to have to make sure it is enough.

Thanks again

[splithoof]

The nice aspect of owning a black powder weapon is that one can acquire such through the mail easily, and if done carefully the government will not know that you have it. From that moment on, the government only knows about that which you volunteer to tell them. So in that regard everyone should have at the very minimum something the government has no knowledge of. Be it black powder or modern, if they have no knowledge of its existence, they cannot take it unless they can actually, physically find it.

[Quiet]

Regarding conversions of blackpowder cap & ball revolver to metallic cartridges...

Under Federal and CA laws, a blackpowder cap & ball revolver made before 1898 [18 USC 922(a)(16)(A)] or a replica of a blackpowder cap & ball revolver made before 1898 [18 USC 922(a)(16)(B)] are considered antique firearms. [PC 16170(b)]

Under CA laws, antique firearms are granted exemptions to CA firearm laws. [PC 16520(d)]
Such as CA self-made firearm laws. [PC 16520(d)(17)]

Once an antique firearm is converted to fire metallic cartridges, it no longer meets the Federal and CA definition of an "antique firearm", which causes all of the antique firearm exemptions to CA firearm laws to no longer apply to that firearm.

Which means...

If that antique firearm does not have the manufacturer's info marked on the antique firearm, then as soon as it is converted to metallic cartridges it becomes a CA illegal self-made firearm. [PC 29180, 29182(f) and 11 CCR 5508(a)]
^In order to be legal, the person converting the antique firearm to metallic cartridge must submit a USNA to CA DOJ BOF and mark the firearm with the CA DOJ approved info. [PC 29180(b)]

All non-exempt transfers of the metallic cartridge converted firearms must be done through (4473/DROS/waiting periods) a CA FFL dealer. [PC 27545]

Therefore...

If the blackpowder cap & ball revolver has its manufacturer's info (make/model/serial number) marked on it, then conversion to metallic cartridges does not violate CA self-made firearm laws but causes the firearm to no longer be considered an antique firearm.

If the blackpowder cap & ball revolver does not have its manufacturer's info (make/model/serial number) marked on it, then conversion to metallic cartridges violates CA self-made firearm laws, making it a CA illegal self-made firearm, and causes the firearm to no longer be considered an antique firearm.
^In order to be CA legal, a USNA must be submitted to CA DOJ and the CA DOJ approved info must be marked on the firearm.


Summary:

"Antique firearms" [PC 16170(b)] are only exempt from the following CA firearm laws:
01. Infrequent transfers. [PC 16520(d)(1)]
02. CA DROS. [PC 16520(d)(2)]
03. Operation of law transfers. [PC 16520(d)(3)]
04. "used firearm" transfer laws. [PC 16520(d)(4)]
05. Unloaded handgun open carry laws. [PC 16520(d)(5)]
06. Unloaded long gun open carry laws. [PC 16520(d)(6)]
07. Requirement to be a CA FFL dealer in order to transfer it. [PC 16520(d)(7)]
08. CA FFL dealer requirements when transferring firearms. [PC 16520(d)(8)]
09. Required minimum age of 21 for a dealer to transfer to. [PC 16520(d)(9)]
10. Required identifying marks/engravings on handguns. [PC 16520(d)(10)]
11. 10 day waiting period. [PC 16520(d)(11)]
12. PPT requirement to transfer through CA FFL dealer. [PC 16520(d)(12)]
13. Registration requirement for importing into CA and requirement to use CA FFL dealer to legally import into CA. [PC 16520(d)(13)]
14. Requirement to be licensed as a manufacturer in order to legally make in CA. [PC 16520(d)(14)]
15. Residential firearm storage requirements for prohibited persons. [PC 16520(d)(15)]
16. Manufacturing licensing, marking, and registration requirements. [PC 16520(d)(16)(17)]

In addition to the above, specific types of "antique firearms" [PC 16170(c)] are also exempt from these additional CA firearm laws: [PC 17700]
01. Camouflaging firearm container laws.
02. Cane gun laws.
03. Unrecognizable firearm laws.
04. Short Barrel Rifle laws.
05. Short Barrel Shotgun laws.
06. Unconventional pistol laws.
07. Undetectable firearm laws.
08. Wallet gun laws.
09. Zip gun laws.

Note that there are no exemptions for transferring to prohibited persons or to transferring to minors.
Which means it is illegal (felony) to transfer (selling/giving/etc) an antique firearm (blackpowder percussion firearm) to a prohibited person [PC 27500] or to transfer an antique firearm that is also a "handgun" to a minor [PC 27510(a)].



Penal Code 16170
(a) As used in Sections 30515 and 30530, "antique firearm" means any firearm manufactured before January 1, 1899.
(b) As used in Section 16520, Section 16650, subdivision (a) of Section 23630, paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 27505, and subdivision (a) of Section 31615, "antique firearm" has the same meaning as in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(c) As used in Sections 16531 and 17700, "antique firearm" means either of the following:
(1) Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before the year 1898. This type of firearm includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
(2) Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before the year 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

18 USC 921
(a) As used in this chapter -
(16) The term "antique firearm" means -
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica -
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

Penal Code 16520
(d) As used in the following provisions, "firearm" does not include an unloaded antique firearm:
(1) Section 16730.
(2) Section 16550.
(3) Section 16960.
(4) Section 17310.
(5) Subdivision (b) of Section 23920.
(6) Section 25135.
(7) Chapter 6 (commencing with Section 26350) of Division 5 of Title 4.
(8) Chapter 7 (commencing with Section 26400) of Division 5 of Title 4.
(9) Sections 26500 to 26588, inclusive.
(10) Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive.
(11) Section 27510.
(12) Section 27530.
(13) Section 27540.
(14) Section 27545.
(15) Sections 27555 to 27585, inclusive.
(16) Sections 29010 to 29150, inclusive.
(17) Section 29180.

[Lupara]

Quiet,

Very comprehensive response, thank you.

Drilling down to the wording shown under 18 USC 921, toward the end of section "C", how would you define the meaning of the phrase "any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof."

Having an un-altered Uberti 1858 cap & ball revolver. Would you consider the fact that conversion kits are available to be purchased for that revolver that would convert it into being a center-fire cartridge firearm. Could that qualify as a violation (can be readily converted) of the standing of the gun as an "antique replica" even if I don't purchase the conversion cylinder?

Additionally, that section states "...by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.". On a cap and ball revolver, replacing the cap & ball cylinder with a conversion cylinder that accepts center-fire ammunition, could such a new cylinder be described as replacing the "breechblock"? It wouldn't appear to apply to the words "barrel" or "bolt", so, if a revolver cylinder falls under neither of these three component descriptions, would that part of section "C" not apply to cap & ball revolvers at all?

I know I'm getting into the weeds here on this topic, but words mean what words mean when written into law. It's better to study and understand how this law would be as applied to an "antique replica" cap & ball revolver.

Again, thanks for your detailed response.

[200Apples]

I think the trouble would begin with installing any conversion cylinder made to fire metallic cartridges. It is then that the firearm is no longer considered an antique with its California exemptions...

Regarding conversions of blackpowder cap & ball revolver to metallic cartridges...

Under Federal and CA laws, a blackpowder cap & ball revolver made before 1898 [18 USC 922(a)(16)(A)] or a replica of a blackpowder cap & ball revolver made before 1898 [18 USC 922(a)(16)(B)] are considered antique firearms. [PC 16170(b)]

Under CA laws, antique firearms are granted exemptions to CA firearm laws. [PC 16520(d)]
Such as CA self-made firearm laws. [PC 16520(d)(17)]

Once an antique firearm is converted to fire metallic cartridges, it no longer meets the Federal and CA definition of an "antique firearm", which causes all of the antique firearm exemptions to CA firearm laws to no longer apply to that firearm.

So where does that put the owner/user if said user were to use the firearm loaded w/ metallic cartridges in a self-defense scenario, and if the owner/user were a prohibited person?

Please forgive me if the answer is obvious. Only riffing here off of Lupara's post.

[Quiet]

So where does that put the owner/user if said user were to use the firearm loaded w/ metallic cartridges in a self-defense scenario, and if the owner/user were a prohibited person?

Metallic cartridge conversion does not affect the determination that the use of the firearm was justified or not in a self-defense scenario.

The firearm no longer meeting the legal definition of an antique firearm does affect the legality of how it can be carried or possessed in public.

Antique firearms cannot be legally transferred to or possessed by prohibited persons. [PC 16520(d), 27500, 29800, and 29805]
^It does not matter if it has been converted to metallic cartridges or not, they are illegal for prohibited persons to import/make/transfer/possess/own in CA.

[Lupara]

By-the-way my friends, I'm not a prohibited person. My questions have to do with keeping it that way. I'm concerned with how far can an abusive government agency stretch wording in the law to cause a person trouble. Words or phrases such as "readily convertible".

Some things I have learned coming from case law such as, according to the law, an antique cap & ball revolver is considered a "firearm" if it is loaded and ready to fire. For a cap & ball revolver it means: cylinder charged with powder & ball, but NO percussion cap = an antique replica, not a firearm. Cap & ball revolver with cylinder charged with powder, ball, and percussion cap = a firearm for all definitions under the law.

[Lupara]

By-the-way my friends, I'm not a prohibited person. My questions have to do with keeping it that way. I'm concerned with how far can an abusive government agency stretch wording in the law to cause a person trouble. Words or phrases such as "readily convertible".

Some things I have learned coming from case law such as, according to the law, an antique cap & ball revolver is considered a "firearm" if it is loaded and ready to fire. For a cap & ball revolver it means: cylinder charged with powder & ball, but NO percussion cap = an antique replica, not a firearm. Cap & ball revolver with cylinder charged with powder, ball, and percussion cap = a firearm for all definitions under the law.

[jimmykan]

What about a Ruger Old Army? Designed after 1898...

[champu]

I know I'm getting into the weeds here on this topic, but words mean what words mean when written into law. It's better to study and understand how this law would be as applied to an "antique replica" cap & ball revolver.

I think I have lost the plot of your concern. If the government, for whatever turn of events, comes to your house to confiscate all your firearms, I am not sure what the practical implications are regarding the legality or illegality of a weapon they do not know you have and that you have successfully hid from them.

And if you did not successfully hide it from them, I am not sure what scenario would involve them leaving without it, laws be damned.

That said, the readily converted muzzleloader language needs to be read in context. A Uberti 1858 NMA is covered under sub-paragraph B, so the shall not include statement in subparagraph C does not apply:

(16) The term ??antique firearm?? means?

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or

similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica?

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ??antique firearm?? shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.