Williams v. Maryland ~ Petition for Writ of Cert

[Librarian]

No wishy-washy talking from the side of his mouth: handguns are the bane of evil in urban environments.

Yes, they probably are, but I don't think the AG was thinking that.

[yellowfin]

No wishy-washy talking from the side of his mouth: handguns are the bane of evil in urban environments.

Both to criminal and political ideology types of evil.

[boxcab]

Sorry, but I grew up in Upstate New York, where January is officially noted as "90 Fracking Days of Ice".

It might be hard for my SoCal friends to understand the concept of "seasons". But for those who do, understand that where I grew up we liked to say that we had four season: "Winter...June, July and August."

If you don't get that, you've had too much sun.

And just for clarity...

The Maryland General Assembly meets for 90 days, Mid-January to Mid-April. They can meet at other times if the Governor calls an emergency session.

It's amazing how much damage can be done in 90 days!

-Boxcab

[ddestruel]

And just for clarity...

The Maryland General Assembly meets for 90 days, Mid-January to Mid-April. They can meet at other times if the Governor calls an emergency session.

It's amazing how much damage can be done in 90 days!

-Boxcab

CA is year round

got to wonder

[Kharn]

MD did one thing right: No political fundraising can occur when the legislature is in session. That really cuts down on the uppity politicians that want to extend the session.

[Patrick-2]

MD did one thing right: No political fundraising can occur when the legislature is in session. That really cuts down on the uppity politicians that want to extend the session.

Exactly. That means if something like Williams takes hold with current law on the books, the state will need an emergency session to choose a manner of carry. That means no fund-raising for incumbents while they are in session. This would happen in the summer, right before the 2012 elections.

We expect to see a big push this coming January to make changes aimed at heading off something like Williams. There was a half-hearted attempt this year, but with Woollard still a few years off they didn't do much to "define and clarify existing law."

But Williams or Masciandaro could throw a wrench in their schedule. Everything could shift one year to the early side. That leaves this coming session to "fix" carry laws in Maryland.

The downside: they will eliminate Open Carry for non-occupational carry. They will also push for MA-style gun requirements (safeties and loaded-chamber-indicators).

The upside: any other funny games they play will occur prior to any opinion from the Court. So in theory, it could be countered.

[Mulay El Raisuli]

Gura might have fun with the AG during orals this week or on appeal, but for now the Gura case is in the hands of the District Court. The Williams cert petition is offered by Stephen Halbrook of NRA fame. Halbrook has a stong background in historical views of 2A during the foundation and ratification of the 14th. That is going to be key as we fight the right on originalist terms. Pretty sure that his book on the matter was used multiple times in McDonald. I think he is second only to Volokh and Blackstone on 2A references in pro-gun rulings. But that is anecdotal measurement...so be gentle when you out-ninja me on word counts.


The MD AG is either really dumb or willing to take chances. Time and again he has avoided the same tired responses used by other defendants. He outright tells the courts (at least in Woollard, the Gura case) that handguns are evil. No wishy-washy talking from the side of his mouth: handguns are the bane of evil in urban environments.

He is also the originator of the "loaded open carry of a long arm" defense to challenges over may-issue handgun permits. Some of his defenses may seem crazy, but reading deep you realize he may be crazy like a fox. He appears to have a genuine fear of handguns in Baltimore. Living in the state, I can say he has a great deal to fear from illegal guns in Baltimore. But the residents have more to fear...

Halbrook is less entertaining than some of our other favorite litigators. You probably won't see him crafting artful responses to gun laws that invoke porn and sex toys before calling the other side out for being idiots. I don't smirk reading his work quite as much as I do Gura's, but it's the smile at the end I am waiting for.

That's as close as I will get to handicapping attorneys and picking favorites: the guys at the top all rock. I greatly appreciate all of you guys and am willing to help in any way I can. People here know how to reach me...

I stand corrected. Even if not as entertaining as Gura, I suspect that Halbrook will have fun with this one.


The Raisuli

[Patrick-2]

Last year I completely messed up the level of court Palmer was in. Tracking this stuff takes a lot of energy, so I don't think anyone is surprised when we all get a detail or two off. I lean on Mark (Krucam) to keep me honest. I use his tracking threads over on MDShooters to figure out what it what.

The important thing is the argument, which we all seem to "get". Gura, Kilmer, Davis, Halbrook, Levy, Jensen...others I am leaving off unintentionally - they are all making similar arguments because the argument is a good one. They are all capable. The arguments do not belong to the litigators or their clients, they belong to all of us.

Style differences exist, and that is a good thing.

[ccmc]

So Maryland's defense is basically that he should have applied for a permit? That's actually not a bad defense even if people seem to think it's a futile exercise. Apparently MD has about 45,000 permit holders (which IIRC is more than there are in California with a state population nearly five times as high), and the pct of applications approved is north of 90 pct. Yeah, I realize the people who actually apply are practically pre-approved because the fit the requirement specified by MD Statute. What if lots more people had applied in MD just to change those 90 pct plus approval numbers that MD will use in their defense. Would that change the dynamics of this case?

[OleCuss]

IIRC, the policy for approval of CCW's in MD is known - and Williams knew he did not meet the criteria. So Williams' probability of successfully getting his CCW was zero and the overall state statistics would seem to be irrelevant.

It would seem ridiculous for the legal system to require the citizen to engage in a futile expenditure of time and/or money in order to petition for their rights in court.

[Patrick-2]

So Maryland's defense is basically that he should have applied for a permit? That's actually not a bad defense even if people seem to think it's a futile exercise. Apparently MD has about 45,000 permit holders (which IIRC is more than there are in California with a state population nearly five times as high), and the pct of applications approved is north of 90 pct. Yeah, I realize the people who actually apply are practically pre-approved because the fit the requirement specified by MD Statute. What if lots more people had applied in MD just to change those 90 pct plus approval numbers that MD will use in their defense. Would that change the dynamics of this case?

Most permits in Maryland are "restricted" by occupational use. So an armed guard can carry, but only while on work. A business owner can carry, but only to and from the bank while depositing cash or other instruments. Doctors, but only if they regularly carry narcotics and only when they care working with narcotics...

The state has refused to process some applicants because of the 'waste of time'. They heavily suggest most not apply at all when self defense is involved. Also, they are open about what they consider 'good cause'. It is right there on the application. If you are applying for self defense purposes, you must submit multiple police reports attesting and verifying credible and specific threats against yourself or your family. Business owners must show deposit slips, etc. Unrestricted permits are rare. The most recent case where one popped up was a wealthy bank president who brought his loaded gun into Baltimore Washington International's security line. He was let go with a warning, but told a newspaper he had unrestricted permit for 25 years. A records search shows no police reports with his or his family's name on it, nor does he make cash deposits to anyone but political coffers.

All that prevents people from applying. We have a project now to do it anyway, and to simply ignore the requested docs we don't have and insist on being processed and investigated.

The MD AG responded to the Gura lawsuit that it was state policy to refuse permits to people like Williams. He was one of the few defendants to these cases that actually didn't hide behind words - he said the state does not want citizens with guns because guns are bad social policy.

As proof, he used Baltimore and Prince George's County as examples of places that would become dens on violence if citizens carried guns.

For those not familiar with either place, they represent the largest concentrations of minorities and African Americans in the mid-Atlantic region. Gansler actually argued that these places were different than other places - like Virginia - in that the population would become more criminal when introduced to guns. Nobody is going to call him on it, but frankly I'd like to hear his opinion on why black people in Maryland are more bestial than other people in other places. Disgusting logic.

As for Williams not requesting a permit, it's only an issue if the court wants it to be one. Gansler submitted to the Federal bench paper which admits the permit would be denied. Even in this brief he does not argue that Williams could have received one...only that he should have applied. He is trying to argue standing, which is always a crap shoot with the Supreme Court. If they think the question is valuable, they will answer it and leave issues like standing to lower courts.

For instance, I would not be surprised to see Williams picked up and decided in favor of a fundamental right to carry, then the actual criminal conviction tossed back to the Maryland state court system with an instruction to decide if the permit is now an issue. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[ccmc]

IIRC, the policy for approval of CCW's in MD is known - and Williams knew he did not meet the criteria. So Williams' probability of successfully getting his CCW was zero and the overall state statistics would seem to be irrelevant.

It would seem ridiculous for the legal system to require the citizen to engage in a futile expenditure of time and/or money in order to petition for their rights in court.

I agree, but the case would be a lot stronger IMHO if he had applied and had been arbitrarily denied. It probably wouldn't have mattered for him personally since IIRC he had only owned the firearm for about a week prior to his arrest. Still I can imagine a SCOTUS justice raising the question. Williams' probablity of success was certainly low or extremely low if he had applied. It could only be zero by not applying.

There are a lot of things that are ridiculous in the legal system. Others have raised case law precedents about citizens not having applied for elusive permits not being held against them in a trial, but I wonder if that really is cut and dried decided. This one will be interesting.

[ccmc]

Most permits in Maryland are "restricted" by occupational use. So an armed guard can carry, but only while on work. A business owner can carry, but only to and from the bank while depositing cash or other instruments. Doctors, but only if they regularly carry narcotics and only when they care working with narcotics...

The state has refused to process some applicants because of the 'waste of time'. They heavily suggest most not apply at all when self defense is involved. Also, they are open about what they consider 'good cause'. It is right there on the application. If you are applying for self defense purposes, you must submit multiple police reports attesting and verifying credible and specific threats against yourself or your family. Business owners must show deposit slips, etc. Unrestricted permits are rare. The most recent case where one popped up was a wealthy bank president who brought his loaded gun into Baltimore Washington International's security line. He was let go with a warning, but told a newspaper he had unrestricted permit for 25 years. A records search shows no police reports with his or his family's name on it, nor does he make cash deposits to anyone but political coffers.

All that prevents people from applying. We have a project now to do it anyway, and to simply ignore the requested docs we don't have a insist on being processed and investigated.

The MD AG responded to the Gura lawsuit that it was state policy to refuse permits to people like Williams. He was one of the few defendants to these cases that actually didn't hide behind words - he said the state does not want citizens with guns because guns are bad social policy.

As proof, he used Baltimore and Prince George's County as examples of places that would become dens on violence if citizens carried guns.

For those not familiar with either place, they represent the largest concentrations of minorities and African Americans in the mid-Atlantic region. Gansler actually argued that these places were different than other places - like Virginia - in that the population would become more criminal when introduced to guns. Nobody is going to call him on it, but frankly I'd like to hear his opinion on why black people in Maryland are more bestial than other people in other places. Disgusting logic.

I appreciate that information. Are there documented instances where the state really has refused to process an application? Did they return the applicant's money in such cases? I went to the MSP website to have a look at the application. IIRC it's line item 9a or 9b that asks the question about need for a carry permit in MD. I couldn't find anything along the lines of what you suggested ie Good Cause being defined on the application but maybe I didn't look hard enough.

[Patrick-2]

Of the two cert petition we are watching, I think Williams is the more likely pickup primarily because Williams - unlike Masciandaro - did not petition the court to deal with judicial standards (scrutiny) and related topics. He kept it straight up and simple.

Heller and McDonald both steered clear of these topics for a reason. There is not enough jurisprudence out there on the right to start applying standards against it.

I'd be happy with either case getting the nod, and overjoyed if both were picked up (a remote possibility). I have no stake either way, but prognostication over the internet being the sport it is...I think Williams is more the most likely outlet chosen.

[ccmc]

As for Williams not requesting a permit, it's only an issue if the court wants it to be one. Gansler submitted to the Federal bench paper which admits the permit would be denied. Even in this brief he does not argue that Williams could have received one...only that he should have applied. He is trying to argue standing, which is always a crap shoot with the Supreme Court. If they think the question is valuable, they will answer it and leave issues like standing to lower courts.

For instance, I would not be surprised to see Williams picked up and decided in favor of a fundamental right to carry, then the actual criminal conviction tossed back to the Maryland state court system with an instruction to decide if the permit is now an issue. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Is the MD AG really that disingenuous that he would submit a brief saying Williams would have been denied a permit only later to argue that he should have applied? What part of this story am I missing?