K9 unit vehicle search question

[sandman21]

You nailed it in my opinion.
We can disagree on many things, but the name calling is inappropriate and serves no purpose.
Sometimes we will agree, sometimes we won't, but we don't have to dive into the gutter while doing it.

How many posts do you make tin foil hat references towards a group of poster here? What's the saying about glass houses?

The MOD's have said that general statements about behavior by LEOs is off limits, i.e. All cops are bad e.t.c., so report any offending posts and move on.

[Ron-Solo]

The MOD's have said that general statements about behavior by LEOs is off limits, i.e. All cops are bad e.t.c., so report any offending posts and move on.

Wouldn't be better for us to take the high road so we wouldn't have to use the report button?

Instead, people feel the need to come in and make blanket negative statements and use terms like 'nazi' and such, when often they have no background in the subject matter.

I've been involved in quality civil discussions, when someone comes in and slings dirt (not just anti-LE) and ruins what was a worthwhile thread.

I'm sure you agree with me, that it gets a little old sometimes.


And using a tin foil smilie isn't diving into the gutter or calling someone a Nazi.

[rodeoflyer]

And using a tin foil smilie isn't diving into the gutter or calling someone a Nazi.

I have no dog in this fight (*rimshot*), but I believe he referred to the dogs as Nazi's - not the officers.

Are we saying dogs are people too?


Carry on.

[Super Spy]

Ron-Solo, what would you suggest to be the best course of action if a K-9 damages a vehicle during the course of an LEO encounter? (assuming the LEO isn't being overly cooperative becuase he doesn't want to deal with the *** chewing he'll get when this hits the captains desk)

My only experience with this was years back when my sister was married to an LEO who was either a spectacularly poor trainer or just had a gonzo dog.....either way my door got scratched. I was pissed, he laughed it off, and this was all off duty. I love dogs and get along with 99.9% of them. This dog I never liked and it was mutual....maybe we just got off on the wrong foot.....maybe her hubby didn't like me and the dog was just keying off that....I dunno.

[N6ATF]

Dogs trained and serving along LEOs are LEOs themselves, by statute. As such, calling a dog a Nazi is LEO bashing. And dog bashing.

[Ron-Solo]

Ron-Solo, what would you suggest to be the best course of action if a K-9 damages a vehicle during the course of an LEO encounter? (assuming the LEO isn't being overly cooperative becuase he doesn't want to deal with the *** chewing he'll get when this hits the captains desk)

My only experience with this was years back when my sister was married to an LEO who was either a spectacularly poor trainer or just had a gonzo dog.....either way my door got scratched. I was pissed, he laughed it off, and this was all off duty. I love dogs and get along with 99.9% of them. This dog I never liked and it was mutual....maybe we just got off on the wrong foot.....maybe her hubby didn't like me and the dog was just keying off that....I dunno.

If your personal property is damaged by LE (not just K9) for any reason that was not precipitated by you (or someone living in your household) you should immediately contact the watch commander and request a supervisor respond. You should also document the damage with photos and get the names of officers involved. This should be accomplished without being confrontational. This is business not personal. You may have to file a formal claim for damages. Our department (LASD) has them available at every station and they are simple to fill out. It has instructions on where and when to file it.

When I had an incident where it was clearly our fault, I would have one of my sergeants do an immediate inquiry documenting the damage and statements of any witnesses. Since with our department the claim is filed with the board of supervisors, when it was returned back to my unit, I already had the information I needed and could make the recommendation to pay the claim, making it quicker for the claimant to get paid.

Be reasonable with your damage amount. I once had a claim at one of my courthouses where my security people release a man's Swiss Army knife to the wrong person. It was a quality knife worth about $80-90 and the loss was clearly our fault. He filed a claim for over $2000 because he bought it while on vacation in Switzerland and wanted to go back and buy one from the same store. I went on line and found the same model knife from 3 different sources, with an average price of $84. The county offered him $90 and he rejected it. he took the county to small claims court, and the judge awarded him $45 because he found one on line that was similar but less money.

If a stranger gets into your house while fleeing the police, and they have to force entry to get him, you will get reimbursed for the damages to the door. If your kid runs into the house while fleeing the police (just an example folks) and they break down the door in fresh pursuit, you're on the hook for the damages.

As a sergeant and lieutenant I've handled many claims for damages, most of which were approved for payment. Sometimes we break things by accident, sometimes it's on purpose because we need to do it to do our job. If it is not caused by the property owner, it gets paid. We have to cut a lot of padlocks during the normal course of our duties. At one time, field supervisors were provided a supply of locks to give out as replacements. I'm not sure if they still do that or not. When you buy them in bulk, quality locks are not expensive and being proactive in replacing them saves a lot of hard feelings between LE and the public we serve.

Hope this answered your question. It's late and my pain meds for my back and knee (just had surgery #4 recently) haven't kicked in yet.

Regards,

Ron

[Super Spy]

Thanks for the feedback....hopefully info I'll never need to use.

Hope you recoup quickly....back pain sucks!

[NorCalRedneck]

Here's the problem with a situation where a "cop can just make stuff up" in order to search a car. In almost all situations there could be serious fallout for that LEO if he were to do such a thing. It sounds like a K-9 unit has the capacity to do that and make it look completely legit and (here's the crux) the citizen would be completely powerless to do anything about it under the Bill of Rights. This situation creates fear and distrust in non-LEO. I'm convinced most people hate/fear LEO because they don't understand how to assert their rights, they think they are powerless and police can just do whatever they want.


When I hear that a K-9 unit can search my car and a dog can be forced to indicate falsely and that counts as PC and there is nothing that says that officer acted wrongly... I'm at the end of my rope, I've got nothing. I literally cannot assert my rights anymore. Now I'm in fear-mode, trying to figure out how to survive an encounter with a bad K-9 unit.

I fear that I might run into a THUG like one of these tough guys. I can't watch these videos because my blood boils. That is not serving, that is not protecting. These bastards are literally jack-booted thugs. And I worry that men like them have "authority" over me.



Again, I know most LEO aren't like this. I may have gone overboard with those videos, I know they lack context too. But this is my point: When the capacity for abuse is there, we non-LEO imagine running into those kinds of cops and we fear because we are powerless. And we all know what fear leads to!

The first video I don't really see a problem with. I didn't like the way the officer approached the guy. But I can see where he was coming from after just dealing with all those people and trying to get everyone to clear out of the parking lot. But I did like how the officer came back and talked to the guy and explained himself in a calmer and more professional manner. Although his actions at the beginning were wrong he did admit that he was wrong and shouldn't have done that. If that was me I would have probably forgiven the officer.

Now the second video just makes me want to puke. I can't believe that any officer would talk to a kid like that and push him down like he did. I can't imagine that officer didn't get fired. If that was my kid I would have gone straight to every local news station and to the department to file a complaint and lawsuit. There is just nothing in that video that officer did that was right.

[Stonewalker]

The first video I don't really see a problem with. I didn't like the way the officer approached the guy. But I can see where he was coming from after just dealing with all those people and trying to get everyone to clear out of the parking lot. But I did like how the officer came back and talked to the guy and explained himself in a calmer and more professional manner. Although his actions at the beginning were wrong he did admit that he was wrong and shouldn't have done that. If that was me I would have probably forgiven the officer.

Now the second video just makes me want to puke. I can't believe that any officer would talk to a kid like that and push him down like he did. I can't imagine that officer didn't get fired. If that was my kid I would have gone straight to every local news station and to the department to file a complaint and lawsuit. There is just nothing in that video that officer did that was right.

I believe the officer in the 2nd video was fired after several other incidents. Just google "Baltimore cop". I didn't really want to start a discussion on the videos though, I just wanted to use them as an example of the type of officer I (a law-abiding citizen in everyway I can possibly know how to be) am afraid of running into if he's K-9 and wants to seriously inconvenience me by searching my car. Again, I, a law-abiding citizen, completely aware of my rights and how to assert them, am powerless in such a situation. Other than being friendly and civil of course!

I'm gonna take down the first video because it doesn't really fit my point and the person with the camera is super biased (even if it's bias I mostly agree with) and it probably doesn't help this discussion very much.

[Munk]

Hoo yeah, the baltimore cop Riviere has a few good videos up. ALL of them showing how abusive he is, and he's assaulted more people. I'm AMAZED he wasn't destroyed for Assault and Battery on a minor. That DUDE should be in jail.

Closer to the topic at hand, people are distrustful of cops because of the potential for abuse. If they should decide that they want to do something illegal to us, and we have no evidence to the contrary, we have no recourse. In many cases someone may HAVE evidence, and there is STILL no recourse or legal action possible. For all the things a cop IS held accountable for, there are so many that they are NOT, and it's always a worry for me during a LEO encounter. Hell, as an example, officer Dude Riviere kept assaulting people, ON VIDEO, and it took FOREVER for proper administrative action to be taken against him and that's WITH multiple videos clearly showing him breaking the law, being unprofessional, and generally being a horrible human being.

I believe the officer in the 2nd video was fired after several other incidents. Just google "Baltimore cop". I didn't really want to start a discussion on the videos though, I just wanted to use them as an example of the type of officer I (a law-abiding citizen in everyway I can possibly know how to be) am afraid of running into if he's K-9 and wants to seriously inconvenience me by searching my car. Again, I, a law-abiding citizen, completely aware of my rights and how to assert them, am powerless in such a situation. Other than being friendly and civil of course!

I'm gonna take down the first video because it doesn't really fit my point and the person with the camera is super biased (even if it's bias I mostly agree with) and it probably doesn't help this discussion very much.

[dfletcher]

Would it be appropriate, when a dog is called out but before the search commences, to ask LE exactly what behavior the dog exhibits when it alerts? If possible, as in, you're not cuffed, would vidtaping the search and dog's response then be worthwhile?

[Wherryj]

just wear this underwear.

http://cargocollective.com/4thamendment

I't's a "dog eat dog" world, and I'm stuck wearing milk bone underwear.

[sandman21]

Wouldn't be better for us to take the high road so we wouldn't have to use the report button?
Instead, people feel the need to come in and make blanket negative statements and use terms like 'nazi' and such, when often they have no background in the subject matter.
I've been involved in quality civil discussions, when someone comes in and slings dirt (not just anti-LE) and ruins what was a worthwhile thread.

Clearly the forum would be better, however that will never happen, you can ignore, debate, or report, only options. I seen a number of threads crapped on that get locked or deleted, we could have a whole other debate on that issue.

I'm sure you agree with me, that it gets a little old sometimes.

It gets old all the time.

And using a tin foil smilie isn't diving into the gutter or calling someone a Nazi.

Using the tin foil smiley as a way of attacking the credibility of the poster and their argument is diving into the gutter, not at the same level but in the gutter all the same.

[Ron-Solo]

Clearly the forum would be better, however that will never happen, you can ignore, debate, or report, only options. I seen a number of threads crapped on that get locked or deleted, we could have a whole other debate on that issue.

It gets old all the time.

Using the tin foil smiley as a way of attacking the credibility of the poster and their argument is diving into the gutter, not at the same level but in the gutter all the same.

Well, I think we agree on more things than we disagree on, but that's OK, we don't have to agree all the time. My intent with the TF smilies is obviously not how you received the message, so if you are offended, my apologies. I meant it for people to take a step back and look at the issue and how realistic the perception really is.

Regards,

Ron