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**edwardm** · 12-10-2009, 9:38 AM

My Answer 1: Implications are hassle, possible (wrongful) confiscation of rifle and mags and arrest. However, if the BB was installed and otherwise functional and the 30's were not in the rifle, not assuming some officer misconduct/manufacturing of an AW, nothing should, in theory, stick.

My Answer 2: Officer safety goes a long way and generally yes, a peace officer can ask you to put down/unload a firearm at his or her discretion - it will depend on the officer(s), circumstances and location. Out in Nevada a group of 5 or 6 of us with loaded guns in holsters, etc. have had BLM Rangers roll up more than once. Never have I had the Nevada BLM rangers ask for an unload or to put the guns down. The most they've ever asked is to keep hands above the waist/clear of the holster area until the contact is over. On the other hand, we had some mall-ninja Pershing and Washoe County sheriff's deputies (FFS, they showed up in a borrowed NV National Guard Humvee) have us put everything down, step away, etc.

Assuming the officer conduct is otherwise professional and above the board, I see no problem. They do encounter more numbnuts and goofballs than experienced, safe shooters, so the odds are in their favor to ask for a disarm when initiating the contact.

And no, I don't like it either.

Originally posted by The Director

This is from the last time I went shooting. Let me know what you guys think.

Question 1

I went shooting on blm land intending to bring my featureless and BB equipped AR. I have ten rounders for the BB, and many, many pre-ban hi caps for the featureless. The one time in my life I actually prepared for something was when the ban was setting in on mags and I bought a case.

So I load the prebans into my tac vest and head out. Problem was, I forgot my featureless build at home in the rush to leave. I show up and have my ten rounders, which I use in my BB.

Sooner or later, a BLM cop shows up, and strikes up a chat. I'm kinda sweating bullets because I have a vest full of loaded 30 rounders on my chest, but no featureless build in sight. The BB equipped AR only has the tens in it, and is legal. I never put the 30 rounders in the BB.

I know possession of hi-caps is not illegal, but what's the implications of this scenario? He didn't notice the mags since the tac vest has flaps that cover the tops. Maybe he did but he didn't say anything.

Comments?

*******
Question 2...as the BLM guy approached he asked us to put our weapons on safe and down on the ground as he approached. We complied. Is he legally allowed to request that, seeing as we are in an area where it's legal to LOC?

Why wasn't in holster satisfactory? I didn't care for being disarmed for no particular reason other than he felt nervous.

I guess the question in summary is can a peace officer require me to place my holstered weapon on the ground where it is legal to LOC? Obviously we were not doing anything wrong or criminal. He said it was for his safety/

Comments?

**SteveH** · 12-10-2009, 9:43 AM

I think the fish cop asking you to put down your weapons was a reasonable request.

I've noticed in the past they usually watch us from a distance until a line break or such and approach then. Thats smart as they are often in the middle of nowhere and back up is an hour or more way.

**MudCamper** · 12-10-2009, 9:53 AM

Originally posted by The Director

So I load the prebans into my tac vest and head out. Problem was, I forgot my featureless build at home in the rush to leave. I show up and have my ten rounders, which I use in my BB.

Sooner or later, a BLM cop shows up, and strikes up a chat. I'm kinda sweating bullets because I have a vest full of loaded 30 rounders on my chest, but no featureless build in sight. The BB equipped AR only has the tens in it, and is legal. I never put the 30 rounders in the BB.

I know possession of hi-caps is not illegal, but what's the implications of this scenario? He didn't notice the mags since the tac vest has flaps that cover the tops. Maybe he did but he didn't say anything.

As soon as you realized you didn't have the featureless rifle, you should have unloaded the 30-rounders and hidden/locked them in your vehicle. While you don't technically have to, and technically you weren't breaking the law, it sure looks like you were, or were going to. Only one rifle in your possession, and a bunch of loaded high-caps on your person? Come on. Any reasonable man would conclude the same thing. Circumstantial? Perhaps, but do you want to spend $10000 retaining an attorney to prove otherwise?

Originally posted by The Director

I guess the question in summary is can a peace officer require me to place my holstered weapon on the ground where it is legal to LOC? Obviously we were not doing anything wrong or criminal. He said it was for his safety/

Comments?

I am not aware of any statutory authority for them to demand this. But I'm no expert. And they probably think they have the authority.

**GrizzlyGuy** · 12-10-2009, 9:55 AM

You were legal all the way. You accurately pointed out that the BLM ranger was a cop (some people don't associate rangers with cops, but they are), so when he struck up the chat, I'd have done this.

I agree with what edwardm said for Q2: you were given a lawful order, in the interest of his own safety, so you were required to comply (and good for you, you did).

**joelberg** · 12-10-2009, 10:40 AM

I can understand why they'd ask you to put your guns down. They are far from back up and surrounded by people with guns. It still bugs me though. It's happened to me once too, out in the desert. I had loaded all of my chambers in my 1858 with black powder and was in the process of ramming the balls in. BLM cop tells me to put down the gun and come over here. Ended up spilling powder all out of the chambers thanks to him. Other than that he was a nice guy though.

**The Director** · 12-10-2009, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by MudCamper

As soon as you realized you didn't have the featureless rifle, you should have unloaded the 30-rounders and hidden/locked them in your vehicle. While you don't technically have to, and technically you weren't breaking the law, it sure looks like you were, or were going to. Only one rifle in your possession, and a bunch of loaded high-caps on your person? Come on. Any reasonable man would conclude the same thing. Circumstantial? Perhaps, but do you want to spend $10000 retaining an attorney to prove otherwise?

I think I realised it more when the cop showed up!

Tac vest was loaded up the night before, and I just plain forgot. Still...it leads to an interesting scenario either way since even when I had the featureless rifle other times, you still have a bunch of 30 rounders in your possession in the proximity of BB equipped rifles, which is totally legal, but at the very least will require some 'splaining to cops....

**sepiid** · 12-10-2009, 12:16 PM

well why couldn't you? you could have your original mag release, one of those grip wraps, and a pin for your collapsible stock.

even if you had a fvg they are usually quick disconnect. you can move from bb>fl>bb fairly quickly. two legal configurations of the same firearm. hence you could have two different capacity mags.

**gunn** · 12-10-2009, 1:07 PM

Originally posted by sepiid

well why couldn't you? you could have your original mag release, one of those grip wraps, and a pin for your collapsible stock.

even if you had a fvg they are usually quick disconnect. you can move from bb>fl>bb fairly quickly. two legal configurations of the same firearm. hence you could have two different capacity mags.

That's is a possible hypothetical solution but the simplest answer (from the cops POV) is that you have hicaps and you were intending to use them in your BB rifle. After all, they were loaded in your vest and you had the BB gun in your hands.

Occam's razor states the simplest answer is the most probable one.

Sure, the crack a cop finds on the road a mile behind where they finally pull over some hoodrat could be someone elses, but what's the simplest answer? You've seen the show Cops...

Back to the OP: I would have disassembled those magazines IMMEDIATELY upon realizing I didn't bring my featureless rifle. You realized the situation and took corrective action.

Just yesterday, a guy came into the range where I volunteer monthly and had his BB fall out (it wasn't installed fully and backed itself out). Since he didn't have the tool to put it back in, I recommended that he seperate the upper and lower before packing up the gun. With no constructive possession law, this becomes an easier explanation than why his rifle has no mag release. Sure, it might be legal. Sure, he probably won't get pulled over. But if it costs you nothing, why take the risk?
-g

-g

**The Director** · 12-10-2009, 3:23 PM

I think dissasembly is a little over the top considering I was 100% legal, but I understand your sentiment, though....better safe than sorry.

I really only realized it when I saw the truck pull up. I was like....oh, ****.

**BT JUSTICE** · 12-11-2009, 12:21 AM

I'd be surprised if a Federal cop was at all knowledgeable or even cared about California's goofy state gun laws. Remember, AWs are only illegal if they aren't registered. He'd have to run the serial numbers through dispatch to prove your gun wasn't registered. As long as you're not being a turd, he's probably not motivated to dig that deep to enforce a goofy state law on a guy shooting cans in the boonies.

**SJgunguy24** · 12-11-2009, 1:01 AM

We had the BLM guys come up at Panoche one time. They were pretty cool and didn't ask us to put anything down. They were there BSing with us and I had a featureless AK loaded accross my back and a G17 holstered.
We even shot Tannerite with them standing right there.

**The Director** · 12-11-2009, 9:17 AM

Originally posted by SJgunguy24

We had the BLM guys come up at Panoche one time. They were pretty cool and didn't ask us to put anything down. They were there BSing with us and I had a featureless AK loaded accross my back and a G17 holstered.
We even shot Tannerite with them standing right there.

It's a mixed bag with BLM cops.....you never know what you're gonna get. That being said they weren't hostile......just.....tense.

And I don't blame them either, Our party heavily outgunned and outnumbered them so I see where they are coming from.

**edwardm** · 12-11-2009, 9:56 AM

Those are some incredibly dangerous assumptions.

BLM Rangers that I have had contact with generally have knowledge of at least some California firearms laws and generally a ranger in a given state will be familiar with various state laws covering more than just firearms.

This is not to say they are experts, but they know enough to turn you into a fleshy handpuppet.

Originally posted by BT JUSTICE

I'd be surprised if a Federal cop was at all knowledgeable or even cared about California's goofy state gun laws. Remember, AWs are only illegal if they aren't registered. He'd have to run the serial numbers through dispatch to prove your gun wasn't registered. As long as you're not being a turd, he's probably not motivated to dig that deep to enforce a goofy state law on a guy shooting cans in the boonies.

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