What's the reality on prosecution for CCW without a permit?

[CCWFacts]

Here is an interesting publication from the AG with statistics about what happens with PC 12031 (CCW without a permit).

It's a lot of statistics, but they are nicely presented. Here are the conclusions I take from it:

1. 3/4 of the prosecutions are for illegal CCW in conjunction with some other chargers (drug dealing, theft, assault, etc)
2. Most of the people convicted are young; many are under 21 and couldn't even legally buy a handgun. The younger the offender, the more likely it is to be charged as a felony
3. Most of the time it's charged as a felony. I assume it goes to felony because the gun isn't registered to the guy carrying it. I assume the major reason they changed the law to make (illegal CCW + unregistered gun = felony) so that they can bring felony charges against people who acquired the gun "not through normal channels" who are carrying
4. Blacks are twice as likely to be charged with a felony under PC 12031 as whites
5. There aren't a whole lot of convictions. In 2003 only 2140 convictions for PC 12031; 2/3 of them felony. The bulk of these were in circumstances where there was also some other criminal conduct, like drug dealing
6. Women are very rarely charged with PC 12031. 97% of the charges are against men.

Anyway, it's interesting to see what's the reality of prosecutions for illegal CCW: who does it, what the circumstances are, and what the consequences are.

[edwardm]

Interesting how the numbers for whites and blacks are almost exactly opposite in terms of felony v. misdemeanor filings.

Here is an interesting publication from the AG with statistics about what happens with PC 12031 (CCW without a permit).

It's a lot of statistics, but they are nicely presented. Here are the conclusions I take from it:

1. 3/4 of the prosecutions are for illegal CCW in conjunction with some other chargers (drug dealing, theft, assault, etc)
2. Most of the people convicted are young; many are under 21 and couldn't even legally buy a handgun. The younger the offender, the more likely it is to be charged as a felony
3. Most of the time it's charged as a felony. I assume it goes to felony because the gun isn't registered to the guy carrying it. I assume the major reason they changed the law to make (illegal CCW + unregistered gun = felony) so that they can bring felony charges against people who acquired the gun "not through normal channels" who are carrying
4. Blacks are twice as likely to be charged with a felony under PC 12031 as whites
5. There aren't a whole lot of convictions. In 2003 only 2140 convictions for PC 12031; 2/3 of them felony. The bulk of these were in circumstances where there was also some other criminal conduct, like drug dealing
6. Women are very rarely charged with PC 12031. 97% of the charges are against men.

Anyway, it's interesting to see what's the reality of prosecutions for illegal CCW: who does it, what the circumstances are, and what the consequences are.

[RomanDad]

Here is an interesting publication from the AG with statistics about what happens with PC 12031 (CCW without a permit).

It's a lot of statistics, but they are nicely presented. Here are the conclusions I take from it:

1. 3/4 of the prosecutions are for illegal CCW in conjunction with some other chargers (drug dealing, theft, assault, etc)
2. Most of the people convicted are young; many are under 21 and couldn't even legally buy a handgun. The younger the offender, the more likely it is to be charged as a felony
3. Most of the time it's charged as a felony. I assume it goes to felony because the gun isn't registered to the guy carrying it. I assume the major reason they changed the law to make (illegal CCW + unregistered gun = felony) so that they can bring felony charges against people who acquired the gun "not through normal channels" who are carrying
4. Blacks are twice as likely to be charged with a felony under PC 12031 as whites
5. There aren't a whole lot of convictions. In 2003 only 2140 convictions for PC 12031; 2/3 of them felony. The bulk of these were in circumstances where there was also some other criminal conduct, like drug dealing
6. Women are very rarely charged with PC 12031. 97% of the charges are against men.

Anyway, it's interesting to see what's the reality of prosecutions for illegal CCW: who does it, what the circumstances are, and what the consequences are.

I think one of the major factors in this is the anecdotal statistic that many CCW holders can tell you.

Ive NEVER been asked to see my PERMIT... Let alone the gun.

[CCWFacts]

Yeah, if you want a PC 12031 felony, the best way to get it is to be an 18-year-old black male drug dealer with an unregistered gun. I'm sure we're all surprised by that. Conversely if you don't want a PC 12031 felony, the best way to avoid it (other than having a CCW, or not carrying a gun) is to be a middle-aged white woman who's not involved in any other criminal activities, and has the gun properly registered.

[yellowfin]

Considering that it's for concealed carry, no wonder it's rare. Unless you're doing something else wrong or really bad at it there's nothing to go on.

[CCWFacts]

Ive NEVER been asked to see my PERMIT... Let alone the gun.

Yeah. It's called a) you're not involved in any situations that would make an officer want to search you and b) you're not of a profile that officers want to search. In fact once they find out you're an attorney, you're of the profile they want to avoid dealing with.

Anyway, here's another question: What fraction of people who carry illegally get busted for it? Well, 2,000 convictions in that year mean that 0.005% of California's population was convicted of PC 12031 in that year. I'm certain that more than 0.005% of California's population carries a gun without a permit. If I had to guess, I would guess between 0.1% and 0.5% of the population here carries semi-regularly without a permit, so it's only the few who combine bad luck, bad profile, and other misconduct who are getting busted for it.

[JDay]

Yeah, if you want a PC 12031 felony, the best way to get it is to be an 18-year-old black male drug dealer with an unregistered gun. I'm sure we're all surprised by that. Conversely if you don't want a PC 12031 felony, the best way to avoid it (other than having a CCW, or not carrying a gun) is to be a middle-aged white woman who's not involved in any other criminal activities, and has the gun properly registered.

The best way to avoid it is to not break the law in the first place.

[G30 Steve]

Yeah, if you want a PC 12031 felony, the best way to get it is to be an 18-year-old black male drug dealer with an unregistered gun. I'm sure we're all surprised by that. Conversely if you don't want a PC 12031 felony, the best way to avoid it (other than having a CCW, or not carrying a gun) is to be a middle-aged white woman who's not involved in any other criminal activities, and has the gun properly registered.

I don't know where you're trying to go with the stats but
I'd bet an overwhelmingly high percentage of convictions are due to being involved in criminal activity while armed.
I've never been asked for mine either RD.

[Librarian]

12031 is loaded - 12025 is concealed without CCW.

They're often charged together, of course.

The link to the 12025 pub is

http://www.ag.ca.gov/cjsc/publications/misc/cfc03/12025.pdf

In FY 2003,
Of the 3,738 males charged with PC section 12025:
Felony-level filings accounted for 58.1 percent (2,170).
Misdemeanor-level filings accounted for 41.9 percent (1,568).

Of the 192 females charged with PC section 12025:
Felony-level filings accounted for 46.9 percent (90).
Misdemeanor-level filings accounted for 53.1 percent (102)

In FY 2003, there were 3,030 charges filed in
addition to a primary charge of felony PC
section 12025. Of these additional charges:
Felony-level filings accounted for 89.8 percent (2,721).
Misdemeanor-level filings accounted for 10.2 percent (309).

[CCWFacts]

12031 is loaded - 12025 is concealed without CCW.

They're often charged together, of course.

The link to the 12025 pub is
http://www.ag.ca.gov/cjsc/publicatio...fc03/12025.pdf

Ah, good point and good find. It looks like the stats on 12025 are very similar to PC 12031, except there are almost twice as many 12025 charges (close to 4,000 vs. close to 2,000).

It's still all rare, and the bulk of the people busted for either of them are people engaged in other criminal activities (drug dealing, theft etc) and who meet certain profiles (young, black, male).

Still, wouldn't want to risk it, because I've got things to lose, as they say.

[G30 Steve]

Ah, good point and good find. It looks like the stats on 12025 are very similar to PC 12031, except there are almost twice as many 12025 charges (close to 4,000 vs. close to 2,000).

It's still all rare, and the bulk of the people busted for either of them are people engaged in other criminal activities (drug dealing, theft etc) and who meet certain profiles (young, black, male).

Still, wouldn't want to risk it, because I've got things to lose, as they say.

Profiles? Racial profiling won't hold up in court. Probable cause does.

What difference does race, age or gender make? If you're involved in criminal activity, you give the arresting officer(s) PC to take you to jail.

Seems like you're trying to connect the wrong dots.

[Standard]

So if one is CCWing without a permit, and it's loaded, you get charged with both? Would that be a felony then? For a 25 yr old white male with no criminal record, not involved in a crime, carrying a gun registered to him (so about 75% of Calguns)

[CAL.BAR]

I can only speak for OC, but after 15 years of defending cases brought by the OC DA's office, I can say that for unlicensed CCW you can almost COUNT ON prosecution.

[CCWFacts]

So if one is CCWing without a permit, and it's loaded, you get charged with both? Would that be a felony then?

If nothing else is wrong (no school zone, the gun is registered, a million other "if"s), then it's two misdemeanors: 12025 and 12031.

For a 25 yr old white male with no criminal record, not involved in a crime, carrying a gun registered to him (so about 75% of Calguns)

It's very unwise to carry without a permit unless there's some overwhelming reason to do it. You'll probably get away with it, if you're not involved in any other criminal activities or bad situations, but there's a lot to lose and nothing to gain.

[RomanDad]

Ah, good point and good find. It looks like the stats on 12025 are very similar to PC 12031, except there are almost twice as many 12025 charges (close to 4,000 vs. close to 2,000).

It's still all rare, and the bulk of the people busted for either of them are people engaged in other criminal activities (drug dealing, theft etc) and who meet certain profiles (young, black, male).

Still, wouldn't want to risk it, because I've got things to lose, as they say.

And I bet if you DIDNT have "Things to lose" you still wouldnt break the law, because youre a LAW ABIDING PERSON.... You go out of your way to obey the LAW, EVEN when you disagree with it, and EVEN when it may ultimately be harmful to you. You and me and people like us stop at the red light on the deserted road at 2 am, even if theres not another car around for a hundred miles and wed never get caught running it..... Because its in our DNA to FOLLOW THE LAW.

And thats really the POINT....

LAW-ABIDING People, DON'T carry because they dont have a permit and they dont break the law, which makes them vulnerable to the NON LAW ABIDING, for whom the misdemeanor of carrying a concealed gun is a drop in the bucket to the felonies they plan on committing with it.