Miller v. Bonta 9th Ckt "assault weapons": Held for Duncan result 1-26-24

[RickD427]

Not that I'm suggesting anyone go out and acquire PMAGs today and remove the dates - I'm just saying there's nothing illegal about defacing (or bedazzling) the datestamps on a magazine; it's not a firearm serial number.

Wrong. The date stamp is an identifying marking placed by the manufacturer (it "identifies" the date of manufacture). Removing it, or obscuring it, would be a violation of Penal Code section 537e. The penalty is six months in jail.

[CandG]

Wrong. The date stamp is an identifying marking placed by the manufacturer (it "identifies" the date of manufacture). Removing it, or obscuring it, would be a violation of Penal Code section 537e. The penalty is six months in jail.

While maybe technically possible, that seems like a bit of a stretch to me. That's one of those laws that, if read literally, could be applied to anything. A holster that covers a pistol's serial number violates the letter of that law. The serial number on the back of my watch is concealed by my wrist, which would also violate it. People who paint the logo on their car. People who cut the tags off their mattresses or t-shirts. Literally everyone is breaking that law right now, and I don't think scratching off the date code on a magazine violates that law any more than any of those other examples. But of course, IANAL.

[Big Chudungus]

Penal Code section 537e

Interesting. Obviously about stolen merch or maybe merch to be fraudulently mis represented for sale, but very poorly written as overly broad.

At min needs a big amendment for "unless they can show it ain't stolen and/or is for personal use".

Who the hell is taking serial numbers off washing machines and vacuum cleaners, stamped into steel frames requiring metal cutting/grinding? To such an extent it needs to be called out in Black Letter Law? The same fiends who take tags off mattresses and why that not called out or is that FBI matter? I'd check my mattress tag but....

How about mandatory drug testing for legislature and staffers first and see if the washer and vac Serial # removal problem doesn't go away on its own?

[bigstick61]

Not that I'm suggesting anyone go out and acquire PMAGs today and remove the dates - I'm just saying there's nothing illegal about defacing (or bedazzling) the datestamps on a magazine; it's not a firearm serial number.

It's also not illegal to replace a magazine body with a new one, which might have a date on it postdating freedom week.

[ar15barrels]

Wrong. The date stamp is an identifying marking placed by the manufacturer (it "identifies" the date of manufacture). Removing it, or obscuring it, would be a violation of Penal Code section 537e. The penalty is six months in jail.

Yeah, I don't see magazines even being close to ANY of those categories and I'm not worried about the "but is not limited to" part because nobody is looking at date codes until after some supposed crime has been committed when they are just looking for more charges to tack on to give the DA more bargaining power.

Also, a date code is NOT an identifying mark because it can't differentiate a specific item from another of the same items made with the same date code.
That law is about discreet item differentiating markings like serial numbers or VIN numbers where there are no duplicates in circulation.
Pmags don't have serial numbers.

[MountainLion]

Interesting that it lists piano separate from musical instruments. Even more interesting: it doesn't seem to apply to accordions.

[Supersapper]

Don't "The People" need to prove I didn't complete the build in Time Frame, rather than me prove I did, sorta like the Big Mags Freedom Week? Would that ever even be an issue? Sorta like you can get a motorcycle Pink reg in your name and Insurance etc and be LEGAL to ride but the DMV never cares if its in pieces on your garage floor.

First question: Yes, "The People" need to prove it, but understand how they do it: First, the cop that stops you looks for a serial number. If there isn't one, that's a violation of the "ghost gun" bill and he can take it. Secondly, if there is one, then the "state" runs the number and the date it got registered formally will be compared to "the window". If it's outside, voila. They have it.

Wouldn't it only be an issue if caught with assembled, "featured" AW without a Numbered and reg as AW lower?

This is where it gets dicey, and I'll defer to the legal beagles here, but there are conflicting things involved. ANY AR with no serial number is a problem right now no matter what the AW ban/no ban does. If the serial number is registered as an AW, and it was registered OUTSIDE of any window of exemption, then still a problem. Lastly, there are some threads about "constructive possession" you might consider reading that talk about having a lower and upper disassembled but in close proximity.

Being as all aspects of ARs are famously modular for even unskilled owners, including all the "features", its it actually all about Time Frames regarding any 100% numbered Lowers and their DROS and reg as AW?

Yes and no. The current laws are based on features. A 100% lower is only that: a 100% lower. The lower can be built into a series of different things, some of which are legal and some of which are not. If you were going to build an AR Pistol or an SBR, the serial number must be for that weapon. Just building an AR series rifle from a 100% lower is easy and very convertable to what's legal at the time. For example:

Back when they were doing that little debacle, I VolReg'd 3 x 100% lowers. Frames only and on my forms I wrote "Bare Frame only" in three places. I can build those into anything that is legal at the moment I build them. Fixed or collapsible stock or mag, flash hider, whatever. As long as it's legal. If the legality changes, I can change the layout.

However, an AW is different. As I understand it, if you register a serialized lower as an AW, AR Pistol or SBR, it can never be anything but.

Does reg as AW require proofs (pics) the gun was actually put together with Features at certain date? Am I missing a whole process of physically getting AW checked as "Featured" by some authorized entity as part of the reg???

It says "junior member" for you, so you may not be quite caught up. To answer your question, there's a little history lesson involved and I'll also leave out the horrible little nuances, as even the experts here were getting a little frustrated with it. When you're done reading, just post the questions you have and people here will answer best they can. There's a lot to this.

Once upon a time in the West, a process was created where you had to register your homebuilt via a website created by the state. This was because they passed a bill banning "ghost guns", where people had built rifles with no numbers. For a time, you could put your own serials, then after a certain date, you had to get one from the state. In either case, you had to register the home build.

They were requiring pix to show it was a legal gun. No bullet button, proper sized serial number, vsible, no collapsible stock, or flash hider, etc. The problem was, that with the rules changing and nuances not known, some people were accidentally making themselves potential felons because they accidentally created an AW (via an accidental feature). There were a dozen little traps involved, some obvious, some not. And the poor guy trying to do the right things was getting hammered.

You had to do it by a specific date...I believe it was 01JUL2018, but this is open to correction. If you didn't have the rifle registered, and you were stopped, you would have a "ghost gun" and could be arrested. The site was quirky...it did not work well, if it worked at all and a very large number of folks were in very real danger of not making it. As far as I know, this thing is still quirky and unreliable.

Yes, there were people checking it, but even they did not know or understand all the rules. Plus pix may not have been very clear, etc. They were rejecting for reasons in some cases that didn't make sense or that they thought were something else and time was running out. In a number of cases, these folks thought something was illegal (whether it clearly was or was not wasn't always clear). The biggest issue was that once they made a determination, it took a divine act to undo it, even if they were wrong.

Fast forward to now, with your question: Yes, there is a process, but it is convoluted and the website I think is better, but not by much. And you can still out yourself by accident. And yes...they will send troopers; they did for a few folks if what they said was correct. Most times, the officers were polite and I guess they just confiscated the offending gun, but for a while, people were getting real confused.

[Supersapper]

That's true for magazines stamped before ~April/May 2019. As long as you bought your magazines during freedom week (and didn't get them out of the back of a Delorean) you're obviously in the clear. But it would be pretty easy to convince a jury that a PMAG stamped "6/2020" was probably acquired after freedom week.

Ok, yes. I was presuming that "freedom week" had the specific context of knowing that it ENDED on a very specific date and time. Obviously, anything after that would not be legit. However, ANYTHING before it would be on the state to prove you acquired it illegally, and since they can't (unless you out yourself), it's "legal", in the loosest form of the word. Or at least you're in the clear, anyway.

BTW...as long as that Delorean arrived between May 28(IIRC), 2019 and April 5, 2019, then you could get as many out of the trunk as Marty had.

[mshill]

Yeah, I don't see magazines even being close to ANY of those categories and I'm not worried about the "but is not limited to" part because nobody is looking at date codes until after some supposed crime has been committed when they are just looking for more charges to tack on to give the DA more bargaining power.

Also, a date code is NOT an identifying mark because it can't differentiate a specific item from another of the same items made with the same date code.
That law is about discreet item differentiating markings like serial numbers or VIN numbers where there are no duplicates in circulation.
Pmags don't have serial numbers.

This!

[Uncivil Engineer]

Uh none of the dates matter. As long as you "purchased" the magazine during freedom week they had all the time the needed to ship it to you. Many shops were fulfilling freedom week orders for weeks. So old mags are legal because they sat in a shelf until you ordered them. New mags are legal as it took weeks for shops to ship them all. For all wet know those orders are still being processed.

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[Supersapper]

Uh none of the dates matter. As long as you "purchased" the magazine during freedom week they had all the time the needed to ship it to you. Many shops were fulfilling freedom week orders for weeks. So old mags are legal because they sat in a shelf until you ordered them. New mags are legal as it took weeks for shops to ship them all. For all wet know those orders are still being processed.

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I'm not so certain about that...I thought that the judge set a very specific time and the only orders that were allowed after that time were ones already in transit. If the company knew it would ship after that date, they cancelled the order. Moreover, if the date of manufacture was after the final day, then they were defacto illegal.

Check or hold?

[Batman]

Interesting that it lists piano separate from musical instruments. Even more interesting: it doesn't seem to apply to accordions.

Someone broke into my car after seeing my accordion in the back seat. They didn't steal anything, but left me with a second accordion!!

[jcwatchdog]

I'm not so certain about that...I thought that the judge set a very specific time and the only orders that were allowed after that time were ones already in transit. If the company knew it would ship after that date, they cancelled the order. Moreover, if the date of manufacture was after the final day, then they were defacto illegal.

Check or hold?

I received a Brownell’s backorder 3 months later after freedom week. I would have backordered more but I didn’t think they would fulfill the backorder, but they did. I know others did also, but Brownells is one of the bigger companies. So it’s very possible to have magazines with dates after freedom week which are legal.

[gumby]

High Capacity Magazines that are date stamped post "Freedom Week" will be viewed by California Law Enforcement as Prima Facie Evidence. It's a reasonable assumption. An individual can protest, argue and explain, but their statements will likely be against self interests.

"Date stamped", where?

[Offwidth]

"Date stamped", where?

On the magazine.