Young v. Hawaii (CA9); Dismissed with predjudice 12-16-22

[Librarian]

Repetitive long discursion deleted.

[Aldo The Apache]

[press1280]

May Issue, just like California.

=8-|

. . . until the next case that makes it all the way up to CA9.

Rinse . . . repeat.

=8-(

Young isn't claiming a special need. How does he get issued a permit and they tell the next applicant you can't get one?

[RickD427]

Keep in mind that Mr. Beck's arguments, for better or worse, achieved a win in the original panel's decision.

Yeah, my gears are ground just as badly as any one's about the lack of public speaking skills, but he got the case to this point.

One would hope that the courts, as a bastion of law and reason, would place more value in the written briefs than a public performance.

I'd also like to point out that it was obvious that several judges were looking at pre-written questions off to the side. No need for extemporaneous thought there. These "telehearings" place council at a remarkable disadvantage to a hostile judiciary.

I'm honestly not sure that the best presentation in the world would have mattered. This case was most likely determined by the panel draw.

I hope that you're both correct, and there's some evidence to date that you are.

Mr. Beck's written briefs were quite good, and persuasive. But his oral presentation was quite the opposite.

The real problem is that the appellate process is all about persuasion. If the panel isn't led to adopt your arguments, you lose. I hope that Mr. Beck's written product will be sufficient to persuade, but a well prepared litigator should present well on both fronts.

[pacrat]

That stat is somewhat misleading. A better indicator would be how many cases scotus takes as a percentage of all cases in the 9th circuit and overturns them. Comparing numbers from the 9th and 1st circuits is apples to oranges as they are vastly different in terms of size and case load.

Agree. Of course the circuits get overturn ed a lot on the cases the Supremes take. Where they think the circuits ruled correctly, SCOTUS doesn't take the case.

SAME LINK ALREADY PROVIDED; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...rned_decisions KEEP READING!

Some argue the court's high percentage of reversals is illusory, resulting from the circuit hearing more cases than the other circuits. This results in the Supreme Court reviewing a smaller proportion of its cases, letting stand the vast majority of its cases.[10][11]

However, a detailed study in 2018 reported by Brian T. Fitzpatrick, a law professor at Vanderbilt University, looked at how often a federal circuit court was reversed for every thousand cases it terminated on the merits between 1994 and 2015.[12] The study found that the Ninth Circuit's decisions were reversed at a rate of 2.50 cases per thousand, which was by far the highest rate in the country, with the Sixth Circuit second as 1.73 cases per thousand.[13][12] Fitzgerald also noted that the 9th Circuit was unanimously reversed more than three times as often as the least reversed circuits and over 20% more often than the next closest circuit

[SandHill]

That stat is somewhat misleading. A better indicator would be how many cases scotus takes as a percentage of all cases in the 9th circuit and overturns them. Comparing numbers from the 9th and 1st circuits is apples to oranges as they are vastly different in terms of size and case load.

Agree. Of course the circuits get overturn ed a lot on the cases the Supremes take. Where they think the circuits ruled correctly, SCOTUS doesn't take the case.

[press1280]

That stat is somewhat misleading. A better indicator would be how many cases scotus takes as a percentage of all cases in the 9th circuit and overturns them. Comparing numbers from the 9th and 1st circuits is apples to oranges as they are vastly different in terms of size and case load.

[pacrat]

Would you say that regardless of courtroom performance the En Banc panel is looking closely at Amy Coney Barrett being on the Supreme court thus taking the chance of getting their opinion overturned and open carry becoming the law of the land with strict scrutiny being applied on all 2nd amendment cases . Would States like New Jersey , New York , Illinois, Massachussets apply pressure on the 9th ?

Are you cereal? Circuit courts are nothing but a laughing stock of incompetence when it comes to being over turned. The 9th Circus isn't even the worst.

From wiki:

From 2010 to 2015, of the cases it accepted to review, the Supreme Court reversed around 79% of the cases from the Ninth Circuit, ranking its reversal rate third among the circuits; the median reversal rate for all federal circuits for the same time period was around 70 percent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Court_of_Appeals_for_the_Ninth_Circuit#Rate_of_overturned_decisions

Amazing that highly paid and bennied individuals that only do their jobs correctly 21% of the time are appointed for life.

Getting over turned is just business as usual. Yet the worthless asshats want respect for their incompetence.

[press1280]

[press1280]

Would you say that regardless of courtroom performance the En Banc panel is looking closely at Amy Coney Barrett being on the Supreme court thus taking the chance of getting their opinion overturned and open carry becoming the law of the land with strict scrutiny being applied on all 2nd amendment cases . Would States like New Jersey , New York , Illinois, Massachussets apply pressure on the 9th ?

I listened to oral arguments and I'm somewhat changing my tune on what I heard. Young's counsel although having trouble putting words together probably said what needed to be said. Some of the questions from some of the liberal judges seemed to indicate some caution. I thought I heard some talk about possibly sending back to the lower court for discovery as far as number of permits being issued, exc. Concealed carry was brought up again by one of the judges; this shouldn't even be part of this case however one wonders if they realize the writing is on the wall and may want to backtrack on Peruta and give the state the more desirable option (CCW over open).
Perhaps some judges are realizing that they have boxed themselves in and now even more so with the makeup of the court swinging against them. They can't simply re-write another Peruta/Kachalsky/Drake for Hawaii with a ZERO issuance scheme and send to SCOTUS.
Those states you mention can't pressure the court, they'd probably pressure Hawaii (if they lose) to not appeal to SCOTUS or perhaps go shall-issue if Young appeals a loss and SCOTUS grants cert. Since Young didn't claim any specialized need, the state can't just issue a permit and make the issue simply go away.

[press1280]

Yes -- everyone always forgets to mention that it also means the "living Constitutionalists" couldn't trust him, either. But I do hope the new Court embraces and protects the 2A, and Roberts squirms and fidgets and suffers as a result of the media storms which will proclaim the tired, old, blood-in-the-streets tropes.



I sure hope so, but remember, neither Gorsuch nor Kavanaugh have opined on a 2A case, let alone a fireams 2A case, since they've been on SCOTUS. Kav had a nice enough decision at the Circuit level, but he's not bound by anything anymore. Neither of them are, same with Barrett. We'll see the truth, which I hope is that they're all pro-2A originalists, but we don't know until an opinion comes through.



I hope so. The 2A certainly needs years of TLC before it can be said to be at the same level as abortion, let alone an actual enumerated right.

They both have dissents from cert denials, Peruta and Rogers. Oddly both are very similar public carry cases. Kav wasn't around for Peruta, however Gorsuch was around for the Rogers denial and didn't join the dissent.
So I'm not sure what each justice is specifically looking for to grant cert, it's almost like making perfect the enemy of good and we end up getting no grants except for extremely low hanging fruit (NYSRPA) which is so low hanging the city had no problems letting go when the gig was up.

[Fat Old Guy]

Would you say that regardless of courtroom performance the En Banc panel is looking closely at Amy Coney Barrett being on the Supreme court thus taking the chance of getting their opinion overturned and open carry becoming the law of the land with strict scrutiny being applied on all 2nd amendment cases . Would States like New Jersey , New York , Illinois, Massachussets apply pressure on the 9th ?

I am not that well versed in whether or not this would set a precedent for constitutional carry. From what I saw and understood (too much leagal-ese for my peanut brain) I got the feeling that the court was looking more closely at why the County of Hawaii specifically had not issued any carry permits in a long time.

Don't confuse the County of Hawaii with the "STATE" of Hawaii. There are 5 counties in the state of Hawaii: 1) County of Hawaii = the Big Island, 2) Maui County = Islands of Maui, Lanai, and Molokai, 3) Honolulu County= Island of Oahu, 4) County of Kauai, 5) Kalawao County, on the island of Molokai, population of 90.

[vaka]

I truly would like to be able to get a CCW and not have to prove that I have cause. I watched the arguments that were presented to the 9th circus court, and I have to tell you that I was not impressed with the lawyer for Mr. Young (our side). He seemed unpolished and not in command of what he wanted to present.


Armed Scholar's thoughts: https://youtu.be/_oIGvt-zBW0

Arguments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cg_1J3Dj0E

Would you say that regardless of courtroom performance the En Banc panel is looking closely at Amy Coney Barrett being on the Supreme court thus taking the chance of getting their opinion overturned and open carry becoming the law of the land with strict scrutiny being applied on all 2nd amendment cases . Would States like New Jersey , New York , Illinois, Massachussets apply pressure on the 9th ?

[vaka]

That is true but right now the sheriff or issuing agency controls the process and you have to meet their standards . Would issuing agency feel as comfortable issuing ccw to law abiding citizen with out sheriff having a final say on the matter ? How is law enforcement going to handle viewing law abiding gun owners who decide to exercise their open carry right ?

[sonofeugene]

Well, if you look at the county by county chart on California concealed carry, you’ll find that the vast majority of counties are solid dark green. It’s only some counties in the SF and LA area that are hold outs.