Another copper ammo question.

[bigboarstopper]

Thought the other copper ammo thread was good so I didn't want to side track it by sending it in a different direction.

My question is:
When switching to copper on a rifle that was previously sighted in for lead, how many rounds of copper do you think somone needs to shoot to be considered "sighted in" in copper? For the sake of the question we will say that the shooter has found zero after shooting a few rounds? Is it sighted in? Or would you finish a box of copper to confirm it? 1 box? 2?

I simply tell my hunters that their rifles need to be sighted in for copper. I don't tell them how to do it. Somone mentioned in the other thread that perhaps they arent making a thorough transition so maybe some suggestions on switching from lead to copper at the shooting bench could be helpful.

I take a lot of new hunters and quite a few are very good shooters but mabye the lack in accuracy in the field comes from an incomplete re-sighting.

[chris]

with my 6.5x55 Mauser it didn't take much to sight in from lead to copper which I consider lucky and my load itself didn't change much either.

to answer your question on how many rounds is tough to say when it comes to my 6.5. i love to shoot it and that is my problem i can shoot it all day and love it.

it took quite a bit for my 7mm since it was the first time taking it out. i took it out a second time just to reconfirm zero and my shoulder was killing me after shooting about 40 rounds out of it.

[NapalmCheese]

I just do the same thing I do whenever I switch ammo or lots of ammo, fire 3 rounds and if they group the way I expect them to based on prior performance, adjust the scope, fire another 3 rounds and if it's on, it's on.

If it's something I've never shot before I'll shoot two 3 round groups. If they are both roughly the same I adjust the scope and shoot 3 more to verify zero.

However, when switching to Barnes you need to thoroughly de-copper your bore. Then you'll have to fire enough to ensure your bore is appropriately fouled (usually 6 rounds or so for me before the rifle is consistent), and then sight in, that's 15 rounds right there, giving you 5 rounds to hunt with.

[Divernhunter]

My experience with new hunters is that they lack shooting when not using a bench. I have yet to have a nice bench with sand bags or a lead sled when hunting game(squirrels are different) to shoot off of.
Also the sight of the animal screws them up some. Call it buck fever or whatever else you want but they are different than when shooting paper. Heart rate, shooting too fast or sometimes overly long before they shoot. They very often overthink the shot. Usually they shoot high. That is why I tell them sight in 2.75" high at 100 yards and hold ON THE ANIMAL. It has never failed me in many years of hunting and harvesting many animals. Too many newer shooters are Mr Gadget and have 47 adjustments to make before shooting. I usually have the animal on the ground before they are ready to shoot. That is AFTER giving them time to make the shot. So forget turrets and number of clicks needed, forget AO, and all the other newest adjustments/extras. This is not TV where the animal waits 15 min for they idiot to take 27 readings and make 47 adjustments before shooting. That can be done on some private ranches(especially hand fed animals) but not so in the wild or on public land that is hunted hard.
Also you cannot expect a standing still broadside shot. Many/most of the times the animal is not broadside and is moving. Learn to put a shot on the animal under those conditions and aim to break a shoulder. There really is not all that much meat on the shoulder and it is far better to had some shoulder waste than loose the animal.

Oh sorry back to your question. The rifle/pistol is sighted in then you have a group that is where you want it from the bench. That should be 2.75" high for rifles.
As far as number of rounds I would say it depends on the person. If I make adjustments and then get 2 rounds next to each other I am good. For others they may not be able to keep 2 rounds any closer then 6" and thus need more practice or a rifle that they are not afraid of and fits them.
This can mean they need a different rifle, one with less kick even though we all know he is a mans man and he thinks he needs a super mag of some sort. This can also mean loading it with lighter bullets at a faster FPS which will do the same job but with less recoil.
When the accuracy is not there they need to get some cheaper ammo and put in some useful range time shooting from the bench then shooting without the bench. Shoot at less than 100 yards also without the bench. Then super clean the barrel, take 3-20 shots getting it zeroed in with the copper(or other non-lead) bullets. Then they are ready. You do not need to practice with the copper bullets if cost is a factor. Also if the rifle is zeroed in with copper you can shoot other loads and just do not worry that they are not printing to the same spot. Just as long as they are printing into a consistent spot and not all over or outside the paper.

I am sure that you get "hunters" that have not completely sighted in their firearm. I also think that you get many "new hunters" that 1) do not know their firearm, 2) afraid of it(recoil shy), 3) it does not fit them( such as huge OB bell and/or too tall rings), 4) get "buck fever" even if they do not admit it, 5) have a bad case of flinches and other problems physical or mental.

If I can shoot a firearm with regular bullets I can do the exact same with non-lead once I readjust the zero as needed. Usually less than 5 rounds. If I CANNOT shoot a firearm well it makes no difference what ammo I use.

I do not know if you tell them but I would tell all hunters to try to break a(or both) shoulders and not try to get the max amount of meat by head shooting or such. Using the proper weight/type of bullets also is important. Just because they load a 200gr bullet in 30-06 is not a reason to use it for example.
My rifles/pistols have shot the copper stuff great without and fouling shots. If you feel a need to do so do NOT use reg bullets for fouling shots. I do not clean any hunting rifle/pistol after check or re-sighting it prior to going hunting or during the hunting season. The zero stays the same. I know not all rifles are like that and had a buddy those rifle needed 3 shot before settling into its normal point of impact. You need to see what your rifle/pistol needs or does not need. All firearms should be rechecked before going hunting even if it is several weeks before.

My 2 Cents and Rant done

Hope that helps

[DSMeyer]

For me I treat every different weight, manufacture, hand load seperately for sighting in. By that, I'll send a couple fouling rounds down range, then I'll do the two shot method of sighting in ( shoot one round, then adjust the reticle to the impact hole while not moving the rifle from the Bulls eye hold) then I'll send two more just to verify. So I'm usually out six rounds for sighting in at the range. Then I'll try to send three rounds at a target at or close by the hunt area, I do this just to make sure mr. Murphy hasn't had any fun.

[Howie44]

9 rounds, in 3 shot groups. First 2 groups to zero, the last to verify.

Worked in the Army, still works today.

[Dnele928]

Divernhunter...good post! You cut right to the facts...to what matters for being prepped for being ready in the field. Sounds like the voice of experience...thanks.

[crackerman]

Before I came up and hunted with you last year it took me 15. 5 because I had a case of the stupids and then 4 to get to the bull then a 3 shot confirmation group at 100 and 200 yards.

[jmonte35]

IMO to many shooters try to shoot out of a cold clean bore and expect range results. Clean bores are accuracy killers. I will never bring a freshly clean bore hunting....EVER!! Nothing you can do about cold bore you should practice some cold bore shots.

As for sighting in copper. I like to shoot it 5-10 times. Get it close to zero. Clean once. Then shoot a couple fouling shots. Shoot a 3-5 round group. Adjust to zero. Shoot another 3-5 round group ensure zero. Put it away. Don't clean it don't do anything to it. After hunting season is over or my trip is over. Clean it real good. Next season....shoot a couple fouling rounds. 3-5 rounds to make sure nothing has moved. Hunt the season.

Once I have my load developed and I have my zero perfect. I clean my hunting firearms once or twice a year depending on use. I still clean/oil the exterior but the bore stays fouled.

Those are my hunting rifles...my range rifles usually get cleaned more often because they get much more use. But I always shoot fouling rounds before I get serious.

Just for examples sake. My 22-250 which is my go to range gun....with a clean bore I shoot 5 shots...I average about 4 inch group at 100yds. The very next 5 shots are usually 1.5-2 inch groups. Once I'm through 10 shots my groups usually shrink to less than 1 inch. I've shot 1/4 inch 5 shot groups with my 22-250 on a couple occasions with good weather conditions. I'll never get close to that with a clean bore.

[glockman19]

I shoot 10-20 rounds of copper to zero in before hunting.

[duckman1]

The real answer IMO is enough that you are confident that it will shoot where you are aiming. As stated above there are many different ways to get it done but it's your rifle and you need to be confident it will hit where you want it.

[leadstorm]

Hunters that only check 100-yard zero once a year tend to miss shots that aren't at...well...100 yards.

I have ballistic reticles in my hunting rifle scopes. I map each load out (copper or lead) so that I know what each reticle marker means in relation to the load I'm shooting, and where each load will impact from 50 yards out to max effective range (and ranges in between).

[LynnJr]

Smell or look down there barrels. Clean barrels are typically 100 fps slower that fouled barrels are ruining accuracy.

[Divernhunter]

Leadstorm---I must be doing something wrong.
What would you do if you were using open sights and BP as I have hunted with in Nev.
I check sight my rifle just before hunting. My non-hunting loads shoot often to a different spot and I do not care just as long as they group into wherever they go.

I also do NOT use a ballistic reticle. Just a simple duplex reticle. I also know I will kill the animal for 3 feet(my closest deer to date) to 600+ yards which was range finder checked after the shot on Pronghorns. I have taken quite a number of 300-500 yard shots here, Wy, Nev and in Africa. Most deer in Ca are shot at less than 100yards and I have taken 100+ over the years with only 3 that I remember over 100-200 yards. Same for my daughters rifles. Just a duplex reticle Leupold scope and she has taken a number of deer, hogs and African plains game and has never missed. All of hers has been one shot kills and just a very few of mine have needed more than one shot. I have been hunting since the 1960's and can count on one hand my number of misses for big game. Many more than that for PD's and ground squirrels but I will take shot at insane ranges for them.

I do shoot at least 2 times a month and often at least 4 times using between 6-18 rifles for a day at the 100 yard range. I do shoot at a 1000 yard range on occasion.

Somehow this works for myself, my daughter, her husband and a number of people I have helped get into hunting quite well. No need for all the gismos, 47 adjustments etc before shooting.
If you do well and feel comfortable with the ballistic reticle for hunting great but not having one is not the reason people miss. If I were to buy a range finding reticle it would be a Shepherd Scope. Very fast and excellent but I use Leupold on my hunting rifles since I have seen too many others fail while hunting. Never a Leupold. I have had people say the Leupold was bad but every time it turned out to be a problem with the rifle or mounts/rings. But most of the time the problem is the person who cannot shoot.
Almost every month I end up sighting in some ones rifle that they could not get to shoot well. After I print a small group and zero it in they know the rifle/scope is not the problem. For some it is a real ego buster. For other it is a wake up call to properly practice with the rifle.

[jmonte35]

Leadstorm---I must be doing something wrong.
What would you do if you were using open sights and BP as I have hunted with in Nev.
I check sight my rifle just before hunting. My non-hunting loads shoot often to a different spot and I do not care just as long as they group into wherever they go.

I also do NOT use a ballistic reticle. Just a simple duplex reticle. I also know I will kill the animal for 3 feet(my closest deer to date) to 600+ yards which was range finder checked after the shot on Pronghorns. I have taken quite a number of 300-500 yard shots here, Wy, Nev and in Africa. Most deer in Ca are shot at less than 100yards and I have taken 100+ over the years with only 3 that I remember over 100-200 yards. Same for my daughters rifles. Just a duplex reticle Leupold scope and she has taken a number of deer, hogs and African plains game and has never missed. All of hers has been one shot kills and just a very few of mine have needed more than one shot. I have been hunting since the 1960's and can count on one hand my number of misses for big game. Many more than that for PD's and ground squirrels but I will take shot at insane ranges for them.

I do shoot at least 2 times a month and often at least 4 times using between 6-18 rifles for a day at the 100 yard range. I do shoot at a 1000 yard range on occasion.

Somehow this works for myself, my daughter, her husband and a number of people I have helped get into hunting quite well. No need for all the gismos, 47 adjustments etc before shooting.
If you do well and feel comfortable with the ballistic reticle for hunting great but not having one is not the reason people miss. If I were to buy a range finding reticle it would be a Shepherd Scope. Very fast and excellent but I use Leupold on my hunting rifles since I have seen too many others fail while hunting. Never a Leupold. I have had people say the Leupold was bad but every time it turned out to be a problem with the rifle or mounts/rings. But most of the time the problem is the person who cannot shoot.
Almost every month I end up sighting in some ones rifle that they could not get to shoot well. After I print a small group and zero it in they know the rifle/scope is not the problem. For some it is a real ego buster. For other it is a wake up call to properly practice with the rifle.

Duplex I miss the old optics that had the old school manual range finder. Put the deer in the box once it fits you know the range. Loved those. I never had a need for rangefinder with those. I can't remember what manufacturer had it. I think maybe Leupold...wish I still had that scope.

Never been a fan of fancy reticles. Hunting situations are so different. I go through this with archery folks as well. There are guys that love to dial in the single pin. I always told them...what happens when you have a buck closing the distance and you cant move. Then you only have a few seconds to draw, rest and fire. I've seen seconds be the difference. I want as few moving parts as possible. I also don't like 7 pin sights either. 3-5 is usually all that is necessary.