Paging software engineers and the like...

[NorCalAthlete]

Just wanted to follow up with this a few months later here.

Wrapping up another semester of 18 units, 6 classes. Passing everything, though a couple classes are borderline. Best news though? I start at a certain very large well known colorful logo company in 2 weeks

[Hoshnasi]

I'm quoting mostly for truth here.

Computer Science isn't about learning specific languages. It's about learning all the theory and fundamentals behind computational calculation and information processing.

Programming languages are simply tools used in computer science courses to learn computer science theories.

There a LOT of horrid coders employed. I wouldn't hire 90% of them. It's a license to steal in a large company. Create garbage, ship it, call bug fixing a new project. Repeat as necessary.

FYI, the larger the employer, the more likely there are ALOT of crappy coders employed. Boeing, Northrop, etc. in Southern Ca. have a TON of people like this.

I've designed hardware and software for flight critical boxes. There is no fooling around there. It works, or they cancel your contact for lack of delivery, hire another firm. Huge fines for late delivey. I wish every CS nerd was forced to go through a process like that.

Cancel of cause is always a bad thing to deal with.

Grades and accolades mean nothing except to the fools in HR. I have hired and fired many folks. Truth and desire to solve a problem trump most accolades.

BUT - seriously think about a Masters degree. Its only like 1 1/2 more years and is well worth the cost.

Are you a veteran or former Military?

While I agree with you. To the OP, there are a ton of hiring managers that only see degree and the school you went to. FYI.

I may be a snob after going to school for engineering (twice - BSEE and MSEE) but you aren't an engineer or scientist until you have taken the courses, otherwise you are a hacker, etc.

An engineer is someone that understands the underlying principles and applies thought and methodology to solve problems. A computer scientist the same.

You might well be a programmer/hacker without the college, but you will never make it to Senior, Staff or forbid Principal. A certain level of educational background is expected and at some levels required.

I've seen nothing that disagrees with this with my limited 15 years in the field. Further, the hackers get a reputation and their work gets treated as such. Nothing worse than inheriting some hacked up code.

Understanding architecture, data structures, re-entrant code, recursive code, memory allocation, classes, etc are not things you "just pick up".

I'd like to add, you're not going to gain mastery of anything above in college, you're get some comfort, maybe, but the mastery is going to come later and through time.

Based on the large number of software engineers I know, here are some tips:
1) SW engineers don't get an exemption from personal hygiene upon graduation. You are expected to bathe, and wear clean professional attire just like everyone else.
2) Most places of employment have core hours, coming in at noon every day isn't acceptable.
3) Keep track of how many times your grandma died as an excuse for #2; your boss will eventually start counting.
4) Don't care how great your code is; if you can't write a report or prepare a presentation to defend your work - it's worthless.
5) Software runs on hardware platforms. Learn and understand how those platforms work, and what you need to do to use them efficiently.
6) Software interacts with other "things", understand how that happens and what the big picture is.

The quote above is the best thing to keep in mind.

Being GOOD at your job, engineering SW is expected. You're expected to do the technical stuff to get paid. All the other stuff is what is going to set you apart and set you up for growth and get people to want to help you out as you climb.

FYI, in regards to internships. When I finished my Junior year I went to work for Boeing as an intern. They ended up keeping me my entire senior year and subsequently paying for my last years tuition. If I had to do it over again, I'd still intern and let them pay form my last year but I would pretty quickly look to move to something else.

I'm leaving Boeing at the end of the month for a competitor. I should have probably jumped years ago.

Be tactical about your day to day life at work and be strategic on how you grow you career.

EDIT TO ADD: Picking up programming techniques like Agile and Lean will help when working in teams later in your career. If there are classes or workshops you can take in the area, do it now.

[Hoshnasi]

I start at a certain very large well known colorful logo company in 2 weeks

YAY!

[InFamous20]

Congrats OP!

[Redneck Geek]

Kinda late to the party but first off, way to go OP!

I have a CIS degree, and was hired because of that. I have succeeded because I solve problems. The new crop of kids I see (mostly math degrees) can't logic their way out of a paper bag. Be the guy that won't quit.

[NorCalAthlete]

Thanks guys!

Kinda late to the party but first off, way to go OP!

I have a CIS degree, and was hired because of that. I have succeeded because I solve problems. The new crop of kids I see (mostly math degrees) can't logic their way out of a paper bag. Be the guy that won't quit.

10 years in the Army as a mechanic and a couple other jobs. It was incredibly frustrating at times, and I think that still shows through a mildly negative attitude when I reminisce on it, but it also taught me a lot about problem solving and overcoming deliberately placed obstacles both human and mechanical.

Right now this is just a 1 year contract and I'll be continuing to take 1-2 classes a semester for the duration of it, but I hope to roll it over into a full time position upon graduation.

[bigmike82]

I start at a certain very large well known colorful logo company in 2 weeks

Massive congrats and omg I'm very jealous.

[Corbin Dallas]

As for the code>debug>code cycle, I'm a big fan of just doing something right the first time, even if it takes a little longer. Yeah, I know - bugs are a way of life in coding. Doesn't mean we should get sloppy.

This is a great mentality but reality is you will not get to work with all the code and you'll never have the time to debug it properly during your scheduled quota.

As for your degree, you can specialize in what you want but honestly it's not likely that will be where you go in your career. Your ability to learn a new language and apply it to your current situation will be your greatest asset. I cannot tell you how little I've used any of the C languages like C+ or C#. I can tell you that I had to re-learn bash scripting and regex and that we use Java and Javascript quite a bit since we are a cloud company. The only thing that I had before I came here and continue to use is MySQL and linux.


Side note about NG:

I'm not sure how NG is doing things now, but if it's the same is it was about 10 years ago, I wish you the best of luck. People at NG are scared of losing their jobs to some up and coming. Managers don't back their employees and employees don't like each other on a professional level. To get anything done that isn't already part of their daily routine, be prepared to talk to lots of coworkers, managers and directors and then be prepared to be ignored.

When I was tasked to build a centralized database for call centers and analyze the incoming data, it took me 3 weeks to get one manager to tell me what they wanted reporting on. It took 4 weeks to get co-workers to show me what they were tracking in excel and where to find all the spreadsheets they used on a daily basis. After 6 weeks in total of going no where and getting no answers, I quit, and NG continued to use spreadsheets for quite some time.

[Redneck Geek]

10 years in the Army as a mechanic and a couple other jobs. It was incredibly frustrating at times, and I think that still shows through a mildly negative attitude when I reminisce on it, but it also taught me a lot about problem solving and overcoming deliberately placed obstacles both human and mechanical.

104% correct. I spent 17 years doing undercar before I went back to school to finish my degree. You know how to diagnose and keep going until a solution to the problem is found. Don't underestimate that ability. (Plus it's comical when people find out you have some other talent. "You understand how an engine works? Whoa.")

[NorCalAthlete]

104% correct. I spent 17 years doing undercar before I went back to school to finish my degree. You know how to diagnose and keep going until a solution to the problem is found. Don't underestimate that ability. (Plus it's comical when people find out you have some other talent. "You understand how an engine works? Whoa.")

One thing that is remarkably similar is debugging. Military maintenance is basically RTFM and choose your own adventure to fixing the problem.

1. Find closest description of vehicle symptoms in the manual, turn to page XX
2. Page XX: If vehicle does A, turn to page YY. If vehicle does B, turn to page ZZ.
3. Page YY/ZZ: Replace this part
4. Steps 1-3 didn't change symptoms, try again from a different symptom tree
5. Repeat until problem is fixed.

Eventually you get better at recognizing different symptoms and testing for additional problems that can narrow down the search for the problem part faster, learn to jump relays instead of testing 5 other parts, learn what commonly fails vs what rarely fails, etc.

Debugging:
1. Ok, code is spitting out slightly different value from expected. Check this line/loop.
2. Ok, that should fix it, I think I was just 1 off and grabbed the wrong value to use as a modifier.
3. Run code.
4. Get exact same result as the first time
5. Go back and insert more debugging breaks, step through code
6. Change something else
7. Get exact same result as first time
8. Repeat.

And eventually you learn what problems you're prone to introducing/overlooking/etc and improve.

[speedrrracer]

Some good info for kids looking to start in the industry, I'll add a couple bits, and some analysis, too.

So I currently do research in machine learning software, and have worked in software since 1992. I have had to hire additional engineers from time to time. I don't know if anyone I've ever hired has even graduated from high school. I haven't looked at a resume (beyond trying to remember the applicant's name) in my professional life. No school curricula can teach you enough to help me; you have to go well beyond that. If you acquire such breadth and depth of knowledge from some combination of advanced degrees, professional experience, long hours reading, coding at home, etc -- I don't care, and have never heard a satisfactory reason why I should.

I give an intentionally brutal coding test even before the phone interview (and if your reaction to the Fizzbuzz test was something significantly different than, 'This is either an insult to my intelligence or maybe a bad joke", you probably wouldn't even understand what you were reading on my test). I have never asked a question like, "Why are manhole covers round" or any of that inane, puzzle-y crap, and I never will.

I find that my friends who are CTOs / managers in many start-up companies have a similar attitude -- they only care if you can help them, not if you have some letters on a piece of paper, and the thinking seems to be, "Hey, neither rms nor ast ever took a compiler course." OTOH, many friends who work for more traditional companies (say, in banking, finance, universities, etc), claim their firms do care about such things, and degrees, universities, resumes, etc matter greatly.

All this to say that there's more than one way to skin this cat, and YMMV. If you are keen to get a degree in CS, go for it. If you aren't, don't. There's room for everyone in the various niches of the world we software engineers occupy. One generality I might make is to say that in software, your education & training never end, so in asking yourself if you're well-suited to this field, ask yourself if you mind continuously learning, and continuously evolving, since that's been one of the few constants in this field.

[Hoshnasi]

Side note about NG:

I'm not sure how NG is doing things now, but if it's the same is it was about 10 years ago, I wish you the best of luck. People at NG are scared of losing their jobs to some up and coming. Managers don't back their employees and employees don't like each other on a professional level. To get anything done that isn't already part of their daily routine, be prepared to talk to lots of coworkers, managers and directors and then be prepared to be ignored.

When I was tasked to build a centralized database for call centers and analyze the incoming data, it took me 3 weeks to get one manager to tell me what they wanted reporting on. It took 4 weeks to get co-workers to show me what they were tracking in excel and where to find all the spreadsheets they used on a daily basis. After 6 weeks in total of going no where and getting no answers, I quit, and NG continued to use spreadsheets for quite some time.

NG = Northrop?

They are going crazy with hiring right now. 2,000+ jobs in Socal, Redondo, SD, etc. I had six different recruiters all call me for hiring events and interviews in a one month period.

Bunch of people I know had left another large Aerospace company for NG in SoCal and are liking it.

[NorCalAthlete]

NG = Northrop?

They are going crazy with hiring right now. 2,000+ jobs in Socal, Redondo, SD, etc. I had six different recruiters all call me for hiring events and interviews in a one month period.

Bunch of people I know had left another large Aerospace company for NG in SoCal and are liking it.

I think the most annoying aspect so far is the ridiculous amount of spam I get from recruiters just from updating my LinkedIn to say I was studying CS. At least, I'm assuming that's where they got my email - if recruiters are just passing my email around to each other that's worse...though come to think of it, my email isn't even ON my LinkedIn.

I get emails on a regular basis saying "Hey, I have an urgent need to fill X position, please view the qualifications below and if you think you're a good fit send me a copy of your updated resume and let me know!" Then the requirements will say stuff like "Senior web developer, 6-8 years experience required, bachelor's in CS or similar required, knowledge of A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H required, master's degree preferred." A bunch of stuff that's nowhere near me and I'm like ok, obviously you didn't read my profile - and isn't the job of a recruiter to determine if I'm qualified? Why are you sending me stuff and telling me to figure out for myself if I'm qualified?

I'm guessing they just have something scraping profiles for keywords and if they get a hit they blast out an email. Throw $h!t at the wall and see what sticks. Don't care about the person they're recruiting, just filling quotas and clawing for commissions. Not cool imo.

[Hoshnasi]

I think the most annoying aspect so far is the ridiculous amount of spam I get from recruiters just from updating my LinkedIn to say I was studying CS. At least, I'm assuming that's where they got my email - if recruiters are just passing my email around to each other that's worse...though come to think of it, my email isn't even ON my LinkedIn.



I get emails on a regular basis saying "Hey, I have an urgent need to fill X position, please view the qualifications below and if you think you're a good fit send me a copy of your updated resume and let me know!" Then the requirements will say stuff like "Senior web developer, 6-8 years experience required, bachelor's in CS or similar required, knowledge of A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H required, master's degree preferred." A bunch of stuff that's nowhere near me and I'm like ok, obviously you didn't read my profile - and isn't the job of a recruiter to determine if I'm qualified? Why are you sending me stuff and telling me to figure out for myself if I'm qualified?



I'm guessing they just have something scraping profiles for keywords and if they get a hit they blast out an email. Throw $h!t at the wall and see what sticks. Don't care about the person they're recruiting, just filling quotas and clawing for commissions. Not cool imo.

Hmm. Has NG contacted you? They were hiring entry levels on the spot at their Hiring events in redondo beach. Hiring levels 1-3 are their goal right now.

Bummer about the spam though.

[NorCalAthlete]

No, it's not Northrop Grumman. I thought "colorful logo" was enough of a hint heh. Think "Hooli" in Silicon Valley on HBO.

I'm 2 weeks in now. Training period is intensive, but expected and far less of a pace than I anticipated. I'm settling in nicely - perhaps a bit too quickly, I've noticed myself getting far too comfortable too quickly around coworkers I haven't really felt out yet. So far it's working out well but I keep holding back and reminding myself this IS a civilian company and that certain stuff, behaviors, and mannerisms simply won't fly. It's pretty relaxed though overall, the perks are great, and they're liking me. I'm ahead of most of the other people they've had as new hires in recent cycles (or so they tell me), to the point where an instructor specifically commented on how well I was doing and that he hadn't expected me to be where I was after only 1 week. I credited the initial other 3 instructors I'd had during the first week for ramping me up as quickly as they thought I could handle.

Should be done with my training period in 3-4 weeks, maybe a bit more but inside 6 max. Hours are long right now, 9-10 hours a day, but relatively interesting and with a great group of coworkers. I can honestly say it's the best group of people at all levels, bottom to top, that I've ever worked for or with. Also the best environment I've ever worked in. Really happy I took the offer right now.