ATF Binary Exploding Targets ruling BATFE

[stix213]

If you put dry ice and water in a 2 liter soda bottle and leave the cap off, you get fog, no boom. If you put the cap on and seal the 2 liter bottle, you get a boom. Ask yourself why.

You need to reread the law:

Any sealed device containing dry ice (CO2) or other chemically reactive substances assembled for the purpose of causing an explosion by a chemical reaction.

Just because the one example listed requires pressure, doesn't mean that all chemically reactive substances that don't require pressure are exempt.

[MrEd]

Untill I see an opinion from CADOJ stating that Tanerite is 100 % legal I will stay away from the stuff .
Is it Legal ? possibly , but is it a good idea to use it without clear directions from CADOJ ? I would say no .

It comes down to simple economics , am I willing to risk a small fortune on a manufacturers claim of something being legal ? Am I willing to stake my freedom on it ?

Let us imagine the best case scenario , I would beat the charges , I still end up with a large legal bill and I still went through a very stressfull time . So in the end I can not call that a win .

You might take a different decision for yourself but then do not expect anyone to help you out with the cost of your legal defense .

As to Tanerite being sold in many places in California , I can go buy a Buterfly knife , throwing stars and so on without any difficulty , does that make them legal ?

[ptoguy2002]

....aluminium powder.....ammonium nitrate. .....chemical reaction......explosive.....ATF says....shoot......target....blown to pieces
.

This thread has enough key words now I'm sure its been flagged by DHS for further review....Hi guys !

Slow day at work..
Information Tanner's patent:

A binary exploding target package, said package including: a first, target container and a second container; one of said first and second containers containing an oxidizer composition, and the other of said first and second containers containing a catalyst composition; said oxidizer composition including ammonium nitrate in an amount between about 50% and 100% by weight, and ammonium perchlorate in an amount between 0% and about 50% by weight; said catalyst composition including aluminum powder and minor amounts of titanium sponge and zirconium hydride; said target container being sized to receive a mixture comprised of all of said oxidizer composition and all of said catalyst composition.

The preferred catalyst composition includes a major amount of explosive grade aluminum powder,

All the DA has to do is read Tanner's own patent...

[LBDamned]

I'm going to throw my $.02 in and say that I've used Tannerite, I was told it is not flammable, I stuck a can in the back of a zombie bleeding target, shot it with a 30.06 at about 150 yards, target blew up in a ball of fire. Putting out the fire from the fragmented burning pieces was a PITA, glad it wasn't windy.
Since there were multiple fragmented pieces of burning material from the zombie target, it is readily apparent that it wasn't just the lead bullet hitting the metal lid of the tannerite that sparked a fire or some other such nonsense.

I beg to differ that it does not produce "a rapid release of gas and heat" and is, therefore, legal on that basis.

as scary and pita that must have been... it's sounds awesome! Video would be great!!!

[jj805]

Is there case law or DOJ opinion that sealed also requires pressure for the chemical reaction? Because pressure is never mentioned in the code.

If you put dry ice and water in a 2 liter soda bottle and leave the cap off, you get fog, no boom. If you put the cap on and seal the 2 liter bottle, you get a boom. Ask yourself why.

[huntercf]

I would love to use this stuff, I see it sold at gun stores and gun shows but knowing CA and how they like to make felons out of nothing I will keep my distance. I think the same arguments are being made here as with the slidefire stock, the BATFE says they are legal to use and own BUT CA has made a habit out of banning items that the feds say are legal. It is ok to own NFA items in free states but not here, +10 mags are legal elsewhere but not here (in certain BB guns), the feds no longer ban "assault weapons" but CA has their own ban, etc, etc, etc. Just because they are sold all over CA doesn't make them legal, some LEO's may be ok with them if they see you use them because they think they are cool as well and other LEO's may call for the bomb squad if they catch you with them. In CA it is a crap shoot at best, sometimes you will win but it only takes once to lose and that one time you will have went all in.

[bwiese]

For all those claiming preemption by Fed law I challenge you to show me that specific preemption and/or why CA law would NOT apply separately.

Otherwise, hell, I could get my SBR tax stamp and tell CA DOJ to go fly a kite.

It doesn't work that way.

[stix213]

IANAL. but my take on the sealed container part that was stated in 12301PC(a)6 is that the container needs to be an integral part of the explosive by becoming a pressure vessel. Tannerite dose not need a pressure vessel to explode. Also if, and I mean IF, Tannerite is preemted by federal law, then CA can't do much about that since the ATFE has said it is ok, per the OP.

Is there case law or DOJ opinion that sealed also requires pressure for the chemical reaction? Because pressure is never mentioned in the code.

You also skipped the constructive possession felony, when Tannerite is in its unmixed state, that the vendor here himself says in that state isn't covered by the federal preemption (if that in itself isn't fictitious). Using tenpercentfirearms above example on how a bust may likely go, in that example you wouldn't be transporting in the mixed state, but in the unmixed state. Still smells of a felony if an officer who encounters this stuff is actually aware of what they have got and the law regarding it.

[bwiese]

Well from those definitions gun powder, primers and bullets should all be illegal too then. They all cause an explosion.

There are specific exemptions for ammo for firearms & relevant materials.

[bwiese]

Tannerite is aluminium powder and ammonium nitrate. Not some sort of magic chemical reaction.

IMO, it isn't an "explosive" even when mixed (despite what the ATF says). You could wash the aluminium powder off of the ammonium nitrate, it hasn't become a single substance, and therefore it could not possibly have been "manufactured", as it is still two distinct substances which happen to be in close proximity.

That argument has zero legal merit. It's a conglomeration in one location that goes 'boom'. Period.

Remember this is a friggin' state that bans putting dry ice + water in a closed jug and declares it a felony.

[bwiese]

California state laws are far more restrictive than federal laws.

Yup. CA is separate from Fed law. Touting ATF crap has not much relevance in CA.

Tannerite = Felony in CA. Contrary to what friggin' Dan Tanner said.

1. He never responded to my request for supporting documents he has from a "competent" CA agency (really, DOJ) showing exemption.

While a 1" square target might get off, guys with 1gal jugs blowing sky high are just waiting for a bust.


2. There has been at least one Tannerite arrest/conviction. It took around
$15k of competent lawyering to get the charges down to misdemeanor.

[shadowofnight]

I'm telling you that DOJ hasn't cared because it wasn't on their radar.

Recent arrests make that no longer true.

In any case, some people are going to have very costly criminal defenses to mount. I suspect that it will be something of a miracle if they don't end up as felons and lose their rights for life.

-Brandon

Thats all I need to hear to stay away from the stuff.

Lets just hope they dont ban banging metal in this state, those old metal targets can cut you and have lead all over their surface.

[mud99]

Tannerite is aluminium powder and ammonium nitrate. Not some sort of magic chemical reaction.

IMO, it isn't an "explosive" even when mixed (despite what the ATF says). You could wash the aluminium powder off of the ammonium nitrate, it hasn't become a single substance, and therefore it could not possibly have been "manufactured", as it is still two distinct substances which happen to be in close proximity.

When you shoot it, the two substances get smashed together at high speed, causing a chemical reaction which creates a boom, and I would posit that at that point it might legitimately be considered an explosive.

As to a few Tannerite talking points:
-Tannerite most certainly does create heat. Ignoring the chemical reaction which may or may not produce heat, the movement of the substance through the air definitely creates some amount of heat.
-Tannerite when mixed as directed does not create any sort of a flame
-Tannerite can ignite things around it
-If you mix too much Aluminum powder in, it appears that the extra Aluminum will ignite, and this might be why people claim that it can burn.
-They sell it as an "exploding" target.
-It looks like an explosive.
-It acts like an explosive.
-BATFE says it's an explosive.
-It has a ammonium nitrate, well known as a piece of most explosives.
-California has laws against explosives.
-No court will have any sympathy on you.

The only things that might help you in court are:
- Hard to actually gather evidence when it's been blown to pieces
- The manufacturer said it was legal
- I wasn't using it to as an explosive (i.e. I didn't use it blow microwaves 50 feet into the air)

[Josh3239]

Swing and a miss. 1) FUD is fear, uncertainty and doubt. How am I spreading that by mentioning a personal anecdote and the fact that Top Shot uses it? I am not. And it is a fact that Top Shot uses it, I used the stuff, it is a fact that it is sold all over the state and it is a fact that any prohibition on it, if there is one, is not enforced by the DOJ. Not unlike the whiners including some senior people on this board who for years protested the bullet button. Learn the definition before using the word. 2) I didn't say they didn't have their permits in order, I was talking about tannerite guy. Your link to register an explosive device is a dud, this entire thread is about the ATF's ruling that such a permit is not needed for this stuff, if by the ATF's own definition it is not a destructive device, then why would they issue a permit for it? (FUD much)

The issue isn't the ATF, it is the CA DOJ. Read.

So much FUD in this post! Trust me, they have all their permits lined up. For a $200 permit they are not going to screw around and you need one for:
A) Manufacture
B) Importer
C) Dealer
D) User ($100)
and a temporary one is available for $25. Renewals are half the original rate.
BATFE explosives permit

[jj805]

Um it is a destructive device because it qualifies as "chemically reactive substances assembled for the purpose of causing an explosion by a chemical reaction" which is separate from and not dependent on the "explosive" definition connected to the health and safety code, and notice there is no requirement of "heat" to qualify as a DD there, is just needs to explode via a chemical reaction (endothermic reaction is a form of chemical reaction), which for some reason you are completely ignoring.

Please counter each one of these arguments if you disagree: (notice Bill points out that having the components not even mixed if there is intention of ever mixing them in the future is it's own felony, meaning even if your federal preemption theory is valid, you can still get busted while just driving on the freeway with it unmixed, or maybe you didn't have 100% of your stuff mixed when you get the LEO encounter, and then lose your gun rights across all 50 states for life with your felony conviction.)

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=62011

From my reading of it, your customers can be busted on felony charges when they take 1 step away from your booth after making a purchase, while you may be safe behind the counter since you personally aren't intending on mixing it. All a cop would have to say to establish intent to mix them is, "hey, is that that cool tannerite stuff? Hey, when you mix that you're going to make sure you go way out into the desert where it is safe right?" and then bam customer talks themselves into a felony just by answering "yep that's my plan."

A lack of injuries from this product so far is probably the only reason there hasn't been a crack down. I'm not a lawyer either, so why do I know more about this than the guy selling it? (answer: I spend way too much time here)

IANAL. but my take on the sealed container part that was stated in 12301PC(a)6 is that the container needs to be an integral part of the explosive by becoming a pressure vessel. Tannerite dose not need a pressure vessel to explode. Also if, and I mean IF, Tannerite is preemted by federal law, then CA can't do much about that since the ATFE has said it is ok, per the OP.