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Direct Impingement vs. Gas Piston System (a good read/info)

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  • Clark_Kent_X
    Member
    • Mar 2009
    • 317

    Direct Impingement vs. Gas Piston System (a good read/info)

    Found this on a website....pretty good read.


    ONE MORE TIME: WHY NOT A GAS PISTON AR?
    Yep, the horse be dead, long live the horse.

    Note that when we talk of "gas piston systems" for AR-type rifles, we are gathering a number of disparate principles under the tent. You can have long-stroke such as found in the Garand and AK, short stroke as in the SKS, cutoff and expansion as in the M14, and even a "gas trap-like" system. Each of these concepts has its own subset of pros and cons.

    The gas driver is just one part of an integrated system. As with most in life, it's a matter of compromise.

    The direct impingement shines in longer-barrel (16" and up) applications where accuracy, particularly at longer ranges, is the goal. The simplicity, light weight and low cost for the standard parts of the direct impingement system make it the choice for most non-full-auto applications.

    Direct impingement pros:

    Free floated barrels are practical; the gas tube is the only, very minor exception to floating free.
    Simple construction, inexpensive, nothing to wear, foul or corrode.
    Light weight
    In the AR, ready availability of standard parts at extremely competitive prices
    Direct impingement cons:

    Less insensitive to ammo variations.
    Much of the spent gas ends up inside the receiver(s).

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The gas piston system shines in short-barrel, e.g., under 16", applications, which require NFA Registration (where state-legal) for us civilians. The high port pressures found in short barrels quickly erode the gas port. A well-designed piston system can accommodate the changes in port size over time. For much the same reason, gas piston designs can be more tolerant of suppressors (ditto with regard to NFA and state laws). The advantages may increase where full-auto (ditto again) is concerned.

    Gas piston pros:

    Spent gas is vented externally.
    More tolerance of ammo variations
    Gas piston cons:

    Can't free float, at least to not anything like the same extent as direct impingement.
    Heavier.
    More complex, more components to foul, corrode or go bad.
    Much more costly
    No standard, every system is different, heck, some vendors have changed designs two or three times! The owner is locked into a particular vendor for support, and that's assuming that the vendor will continue to support early iterations. If not, you have a thousand dollar tomato stake.
    If you don't fire 1,000 rounds in a session, particularly if it's not full-auto, and you have a civilian-legal barrel length, you will be better off buying ammo and becoming more proficient than spending the money on a gas piston conversion. I'll submit that this will be the case for 99% of civilian shooters.

    Now, let's go shooting!

    Regards,

    Walt
    Last edited by Clark_Kent_X; 04-10-2009, 1:01 PM.
    sigpic
  • #2
    mls343
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2009
    • 1543

    Hey Walt,

    Thanks for the info. Interesting, I built my first AR and have had nothing but problems with it. I had a classic FTF. I was able to swap out the doublestar upper (Chrom 1:7) I bought at a gun show for slightly used Del-Ton (std 1:9). Using the Doublestar, I was unable to get through a single magazine (10 rounds) without some kind of failure. I still have not fired the replacement upper just yet (note: the guy I bought it from was the guy who replaced it).

    With this said, I have been looking into a gas piston system as I heard they are more reliable. I know some of the new systems - HK and SIG - are using some kind of piston system to increase reliablilty. From your experience, is the gas piston upper worth it from a reliability standpoint?

    For me, I just want a rifle to fire and fire consistantly.

    Thanks!
    Next to me in the blackness lay my oiled blue steel beauty. The greatest Christmas gift I had ever received, or would ever receive. Gradually, I drifted off to sleep, pringing ducks on the wing and getting off spectacular hip shots.
    - Ralphie from "A Christmas Story"

    Comment

    • #3
      Jpach
      Veteran Member
      • Oct 2007
      • 4707

      Ask Chris aka Addax. He makes some nice piston uppers and everyone seems to love them. The piston haters talk about how inaccurate the piston ARs are but I have seen groups from one of Chris' rifles and it was quite nice. Sub-MOA I believe. Great reliability as well. And by the way, what mags are you using? You could have bad mags. I know I do and it causes serious feeding issues. I need to toss those and get new ones ASAP
      PM or Email me if you have questions: Jpach89@gmail.com

      Check out my LMT .308 AR
      Originally posted by kotton
      I have to try that method of attaching the front of a sling to the gun via pubic hair.
      Originally posted by bomb_on_bus
      Best part of buying that stock is it comes with its own complimentary jar of anal lube! There were several flavors to choose from, regular, hot cinnamon, or bacon. Im a man of danger so I chose Hot cinnamon to use with my bump fire buttstock.

      Comment

      • #4
        mls343
        Senior Member
        • Mar 2009
        • 1543

        Brand new Pro Mag 10-20. Both mags were malfunctioning. I still need to find the time to try the new upper, but right now, if the SHTF, it will be an SKS ofr me.

        Thanks for the tip on Addax! I'll check them out.
        Next to me in the blackness lay my oiled blue steel beauty. The greatest Christmas gift I had ever received, or would ever receive. Gradually, I drifted off to sleep, pringing ducks on the wing and getting off spectacular hip shots.
        - Ralphie from "A Christmas Story"

        Comment

        • #5
          God Bless The Mauser
          Senior Member
          • Jun 2007
          • 1291

          DI has worked fine since the 1960s, keep your weapon clean and it will work. For piston guns I would just go with an AK. An AK74 or milled AK with GOOD quality ammo will be very accurate. I think a lot of the jamming issues people have with ARs are not just because of the DI system but a poorly built rifle or magazine. If you have a well built AR that's DI it will work fine as long as you maintain it. I have about 300 or so rounds through my AR and it has yet to jam, I know that's not a lot of rounds but right out of the box it has never jammed.

          Comment

          • #6
            RECCE556
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2006
            • 1221

            Ok, this is a huge can of worms (DI vs. Piston) but here we go...

            First off, if your DI AR is having problems, it's NOT because it's a DI gun, it's because it's either built wrong or has a faulty part (or parts). The barrel may or may not be the problem.

            As for pistons, the mere fact that it's a piston system won't make it reliable if something like the chamber is the problem...and introducing new component scan exasperate problem or cause new ones...

            Don't buy into the "reliability" marketing of the piston systems. The bottom line is that you're horseshoeing in parts that the gun was never originally designed for. If you look at ground up Gas Piston systems, you'll see that the way the bolts/carriers are designed is different from the DI gun's BCG's. There's a reason for that. It's trying to shove a diesel AWD system into your gas FWD drive....sure, it's doable and you may get it to work but the bottom line is that it wasn't designed that way in the first place and other, unforeseen and long term problems may crop up.

            Case in point, Bolt Carrier Tilt and accelerated bolt lug wear. Both are known problems and there are a couple different "patches" that vendors are trying.

            Another issue with the Piston Conversions has to do with the recoil impulse. It's very sharp compared to DI and for long term DI shooters, it will be different and in some case, very bothersome. Decrease in accuracy is another issue that people have reported.

            I've personally tried out a few different gas piston systems myself (Adams Arms, PWS, HK416, Bushmaster, Ares, POF, LMT, etc.) and honestly, I wasn't particularly impressed. I'm not a piston hater by any means (I have a SIG 556, M1A, RobArms M96, RobArms XCR, etc., etc.) but I'm not sold on the AR15 piston conversions....IMO, pistons improve the system in some regards (runs cleaner/cooler INSIDE the upper) but it worsens it other respects (wear, added weight, potential long term issues, recoil impulse, accuracy degradation, etc.)
            Last edited by RECCE556; 04-10-2009, 1:24 PM.

            Comment

            • #7
              grunz
              Member
              • Mar 2009
              • 291

              A friend just got a Rock River AR15 and was having all sorts of FTF problems first time at the range.

              All was fixed with a mag change to a higher quality unit.

              Amlso mags are less expensive than a piston conversion.

              Comment

              • #8
                Clark_Kent_X
                Member
                • Mar 2009
                • 317

                hey recc...how do you like your RobArms XCR? and have you tried LWRC?
                sigpic

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                • #9
                  mls343
                  Senior Member
                  • Mar 2009
                  • 1543

                  Good to know, thanks!
                  Next to me in the blackness lay my oiled blue steel beauty. The greatest Christmas gift I had ever received, or would ever receive. Gradually, I drifted off to sleep, pringing ducks on the wing and getting off spectacular hip shots.
                  - Ralphie from "A Christmas Story"

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    RECCE556
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2006
                    • 1221

                    The XCR is alright, nothing special. Not bad but not the best thing since sliced bread (but definitely better than Grape Nuts). I prefer my SIG 556. I've shot about 600 rounds on a LWRC. Also not bad but it has the same feel as other AR piston conversions. The LMT is the most recent one I've shot. Again, same as any other AR piston conversion.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      technique
                      I need a LIFE!!
                      • Jan 2008
                      • 10639

                      I still have yet to have failures outta my DI...Thousands of rounds at a time, and probly 6-8 thousand since a good cleaning. She's still going strong. I could hardly take my Flash hider of the other day, there was soooooo much black goop in on and around it.


                      Piston system.....Great for suppressed shootin.

                      Thats my review
                      California Uber Alles, California Uber Alles
                      Uber Alles California, Uber Alles California

                      I am Governor Jerry Brown, My aura smiles and never frowns, Soon I will be President...

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        RECCE556
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2006
                        • 1221

                        Originally posted by technique
                        I still have yet to have failures outta my DI...Thousands of rounds at a time, and probly 6-8 thousand since a good cleaning. She's still going strong.
                        Yup, I have the same thing going on....~8000 round on it, NO cleaning...I just oil the bolt...

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          ar15barrels
                          I need a LIFE!!
                          • Jan 2006
                          • 56893

                          Originally posted by technique
                          I still have yet to have failures outta my DI...Thousands of rounds at a time, and probly 6-8 thousand since a good cleaning. She's still going strong. I could hardly take my Flash hider of the other day, there was soooooo much black goop in on and around it.
                          Originally posted by RECCE556
                          Yup, I have the same thing going on....~8000 round on it, NO cleaning...I just oil the bolt...
                          You guys sure shoot a lot.
                          I only have about 2500-2600 rounds on my under-gassed 3gun race rifle since the cleaning last spring.
                          I think I'll clean it next year just to see how the metal parts under all the gunk look...
                          There's about a 1/32" layer of carbon/oil sludge in the receiver but it runs just fine...

                          Cleaning AR's is for mall ninjas.
                          Just oil it and shoot it.
                          Randall Rausch

                          AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
                          Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com
                          Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com
                          Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns.
                          Most work performed while-you-wait.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            JohnBrian
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2003
                            • 1203

                            I've considered going to a piston system on my AR but the prices have been a bit high. I did see one system on the 'Net last week & it was only $249.99. I don't remember who the makers was. I was tempted but I've never had gas system issues.

                            The only real problem I've ever had with a standard AR15 is the extractor spring. In the 16 or so years I've had an AR I've probably gone thru 3 dozen springs & one extractor. I've tried different bolts and different rubber/silicone/whatever spring inserts (the blue silicone seems to work the best) and different types (strengths?) of springs. The last few years I simply replace the extractor spring & insert once or twice a year whether I am having issues or not.

                            And no, it's not the upper assembly. I've had probably a half dozen different types (upper receiver, barrel, hider or comp) over the years and have had the same problem.
                            THIS SPACE FOR RENT

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                            • #15
                              Hunt3r
                              Junior Member
                              • Mar 2009
                              • 33

                              I'd imagine that DI on a 5.56 AR would be fine and dandy, but I'd imagine that there would be more problems on an AR10, if the barrel is less then say... 18 inches?

                              It could be the same deal with the AR10, and that DI is fine for that.

                              Well, pistons are still fine, but right now the only rifles that LWRC has out use a carbine length system. That means a very short piston, and that means more force transmitted to the piston, and violently. I think the mid-length piston would be better. Also, for those of us who hate cleaning gunk from guns can shoot their guns longer without having to wipe it down.

                              No real reason against direct impingement, but gas pistons run cleaner and run cooler, and don't need lube. I don't believe that carrier tilt is a MAJOR problem, since there's many ways to fix that problem. Like.. say... a PWS gas piston system in theory and probably in practice solves the problem to the point where it's not noticeable. That and a CHF barrel, and the NP3 coating they use on the POF rifles would make the AR15 cycling system as perfect as it can be, if you shove a piston system in there.

                              Sure gas piston ARs are like putting a W12 into a Golf, but they've done it, and it works quite well.

                              And it'd be GREAT if PWS would make a piston conversion for the AR10.
                              Last edited by Hunt3r; 04-10-2009, 5:29 PM.

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