Off List Handguns - A New Idea?

[bruss01]

All right, we have a "Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale" list maintained by the DOJ. There are lots of handguns that are perfectly safe that are not on this list, either because they lack some new safety feature or because they are a discontinued model that dropped off the list because the manufacturer quit paying the money to keep them eligible. For instance, the new Stoeger Cougar and Taurus 1911 in the former category - and classics like the Ruger Security Six in the latter category.

Now, this issue of "safe handguns" plausibly benefits the general gun buying public - think of the average "Joe Sixpack" who doesn't want to know a lot about guns, just wants to have one "in case". A lot of women fall into this same category - they feel they need a gun but will do/learn the bare minimum necessary to get one. These people with minimal knowledge and experience (sadly, these probably make up the majority of the gun buying public) DO plausibly benefit by only having access to the "safest" guns as determined by some kind of testing. Let us forget for a moment that the testing done (and fees charged by the state to perform the testing) may or may not be the best determinant of that criteria. The fact exists that it is widely perceived, at least in legislative circles, to be of benefit in protecting the public (sheeple) from themselves. As a result, the Roster is probably not going away anytime in the forseeable future.

Does this impact the average California gun buyer? Not really. If you want to buy a 9mm gun for home defense, you can walk into any gun store in the state and get one. If you want a .45, you can get one of those too. So the average buyer is not impacted in a practical sense.

But who IS impacted by this? The shooting enthusiast or collector, for whom a "garden variety" revolver or semi-auto is not what he wants. A specific make, a specific model, a "classic" from years gone by - which are often not on the list for a variety of reasons, none of which have anything to do with the intrinsic safety of the handgun. You want a Coonan .357 semi-auto? A Cop .357? How about a standard model gun like a CZ75b, but in a finish (let's say stainless) that never made the approved list? Under current law, unless you find someone already in the state who has what you want for sale, forget about it. Even though the shooting enthusiast or gun collector typically has a much broader range of knowledge and experience than your "Joe Sixpack" gun buyer, he is still denied the ability to purchase these safe but no longer listed handguns.

What is happening over time, is that all the "classic" handguns are being moved out of state, beyond the reach of the California collector. This is a terrible tragedy for the handgun collecting community in our state.

What can be done? I have been giving this some thought. First, the existing law is not going away. However, it may be possible to ammend it in some minor way that will open a door for those who are willing to make a bit of extra effort. Second, it would be necessary to make a case for some individuals being acceptable to handle older "obsolete" designs in a safe manner. Third, we do not want to create any new bueracracy or expensive "certification" programs.

Within these parameters, what can be done? I would like to propose ammending current law as follows:

Proposed: An exception added to the non-approved handgun law which would except individuals who are current holders of Curio and Relic liceses AND a CA Handgun safety certificate. These individuals would be able to acquire handguns that are not on the list, provided they were purchased via a FFL as any regular handgun purchase would be, whether ppt or otherwise. So, you could purchase new and used firearms, ordered from out of state, thru your local FFL if you have a HCC and a C&R. Many gun stores currently have a "cops only" display case where the off-list handguns are kept. Under the proposed change, gun shops would instead have a "cops and licensed collectors only" display case.

This modest amendment creates no new bueracracy, no "certification" program not already in existence, and would enable collectors and enthusiasts to obtain non-mainstream handguns for their hobbyist pursuits which are not available to the general handgun buying public.

Am I barking up the right tree, here? Has this got a chance of flying if introduced into the legislature? We have had a few good bills passed into law and beaten some bad ones. This might be one way we can push back a little and reclaim some territory that has been lost. Ideas, comments?

[DRM6000]

maybe they should just amend the list of exempt individuals to include those who have a coe.

[bruss01]

I think I've heard of coe, please refresh my memory on the particulars. Thanks!

[tmuller]

Great idea!!

I am new to the state and this seems unreal as do so many other CA gun laws. I think you're right on target and I can believe how difficult they make it for law abiding enthusiasts...Welcome to PRK I suppose. I would definatley support this bill in any manner that I could. I had to sell several firearms b4 I moved to the state and was fortunately able to replace most with something interesting and enjoyable that was legal. To be forced to only get general run of the mill guns doesn't do me any good...I already own or have owned a lot. I am always looking for something new and interesting. Keep up the good work and let me know if there is anything I can do to help. Would jump right behind this extremely reasonable proposal. Thanks!!

[bwiese]

There is some talk (approximately) about used handguns sold in CA being able to be again sold thru dealers (as opposed to just via PPTs).

I think folks are realizing that stupid restrictions like these may drive the underground market.

I am also doing further investigation, but you should know already that exempt handguns include:

(1) single-action revolvers holding 5 or more shots, 3" min bbl length, 7.5" min overall length;

(2) single-shot pistols with min 6" bbl length and min 10.5" overall length.

S&W wheelguns, at least, are readily renderable into single-action form by removing the double action sear.

12133PC exemptions only reflect the current status of the gun, and not any original design intent. Future changes to a handgun have never been restricted either (other than assault weapons related stuff or NFA stuff like smoothbore restrictions).

A subsent of S&W Model 14 production are, in fact, factory single-action revolvers. The sister double-action revolver is a K38 Masterpiece.

It is entirely legal for FFL to import/sell a single-action S&W Model 14. It thus appears entirely legal for an FFL to import other modified to single action S&W revolvers, if the modification is done outside CA. There is no crime in restoring DA status after DROSing & acquisition of revolver after 10 day wait.
[It is (to me) an open question whether a CA FFL can import a non-rostered DA revolver, and modify it in CA and then sell it to nonexempt part (i.e. nonLEO), which remains to be seen.]

Single-shot conversions like Springfield's SASS system and Pachmayr's Dominator allow rifle calibers to be used on a 1911 frame. These would be exempt single-shot pistols, if if the barrel length and overall length were compliant w/12133PC.

If you really wanted a certain brand of 1911, find a Springfield SASS or Pachmayr single-shot upper with a long enough barrel, have it slapped on to the 1911 frame of your choice before shipment into CA, and DROS it as an exempt single-shot pistol. After you're done with the deal, sell the single-shot upper to another guy...

I suspect a cheap low-cost single-shot 22Short conversion with locked slide could be created to render any 1911 frame into an exempt single-shot, as well.

[CalNRA]

I suspect a cheap low-cost single-shot 22Short conversion with locked slide could be created to render any 1911 frame into an exempt single-shot, as well.

I would go for a 250 dollar single-shot 22 short Caspian brand target pistol.
you?

[vf111]

And don't forget C&R handguns

can be bought through a dealer instead of always doing a PTP.

[bwiese]

I would go for a 250 dollar single-shot 22 short Caspian brand target pistol.
you?

Dunno what Caspian sells their frames for.

I imagine this is more useful to split up a $2K (or whatever) Caspian outside CA, drop the 22short or single-shot rifle upper on, and bring the frame in. The 45acp slide/bbl would be shipped directly to you.

The people doing this would be willing to pay $250 for the upper itself, and sell it to another Californian down the line.

[CalNRA]

can be bought through a dealer instead of always doing a PTP.

you haven't been following the prices of 50+ year-old 1911s these days have you?

[bwiese]

And don't forget C&R handguns can be bought through a dealer instead of always doing a PTP.

Many of the really desirable handguns are not C&Rs - say, mid-70s S&W 29s, or limited-production 1911s.

[vf111]

you haven't been following the prices of 50+ year-old 1911s these days have you?

Oh I'm well aware of the prices GI 1911's are going for these days- wish I had started collecting them sooner! I was thinking more along the lines of the Sistema Colts (I just saw a nice one recently at a local shop for $450), CZ52's, Tokarev, etc.

[mike452]

Dunno what Caspian sells their frames for.

I imagine this is more useful to split up a $2K (or whatever) Caspian outside CA, drop the 22short or single-shot rifle upper on, and bring the frame in. The 45acp slide/bbl would be shipped directly to you.

The people doing this would be willing to pay $250 for the upper itself, and sell it to another Californian down the line.

Let's group buy a few and start a loan program!

[bruss01]

Ok.... so back on track (back on topic)...

I do not currently hold a C&R. C&R people are collectors by nature. They are already exempted from certain restrictions on firearms purchases, it would be a logical extension to exempt them from the Certified Roster as well.

My chief frustration right now is that there are numerous handguns I want, that I cannot get because of the roster, by any means. There must be plenty of other Firearm Afficianados who feel the same way, who wouldn't mind jumping thru a few hoops to get what they want, if only there was a legal path to do so. The state would not be flooded with unsafe handguns because those are typically the cheaper "Saturday Night Specials" that hold no interest for a collector. The collector would be purchasing for himself, not for the purpose of re-selling to non-C&R holders. The number of collectors is small compared to the general gun-buying public, so only a small percentage of the general population is impacted. Certainly not enough to diminish the over-all safety, and therefore not a threat to DOJ or anyone, really, from a political vantage point.

So I'm asking, are there others who feel the same way? Who thinks this has a chance of passing? It's much easier to pass an amendment to existing law than to overturn a law entirely. It would simply add C&R holders to the exempt list, as police are already exempt (see there is already a precedent... ). Who would one talk to about getting this introduced as a bill? Who would be willing to apply for your C&R if it meant you could purchase handguns not on the approved roster?

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

[JPN6336]

There is some talk (approximately) about used handguns sold in CA being able to be again sold thru dealers (as opposed to just via PPTs).

I think folks are realizing that stupid restrictions like these may drive the underground market.

I am also doing further investigation, but you should know already that exempt handguns include:

(1) single-action revolvers holding 5 or more shots, 3" min bbl length, 7.5" min overall length;

(2) single-shot pistols with min 6" bbl length and min 10.5" overall length.

S&W wheelguns, at least, are readily renderable into single-action form by removing the double action sear.

12133PC exemptions only reflect the current status of the gun, and not any original design intent. Future changes to a handgun have never been restricted either (other than assault weapons related stuff or NFA stuff like smoothbore restrictions).

A subsent of S&W Model 14 production are, in fact, factory single-action revolvers. The sister double-action revolver is a K38 Masterpiece.

It is entirely legal for FFL to import/sell a single-action S&W Model 14. It thus appears entirely legal for an FFL to import other modified to single action S&W revolvers, if the modification is done outside CA. There is no crime in restoring DA status after DROSing & acquisition of revolver after 10 day wait.
[It is (to me) an open question whether a CA FFL can import a non-rostered DA revolver, and modify it in CA and then sell it to nonexempt part (i.e. nonLEO), which remains to be seen.]

Single-shot conversions like Springfield's SASS system and Pachmayr's Dominator allow rifle calibers to be used on a 1911 frame. These would be exempt single-shot pistols, if if the barrel length and overall length were compliant w/12133PC.

If you really wanted a certain brand of 1911, find a Springfield SASS or Pachmayr single-shot upper with a long enough barrel, have it slapped on to the 1911 frame of your choice before shipment into CA, and DROS it as an exempt single-shot pistol. After you're done with the deal, sell the single-shot upper to another guy...

I suspect a cheap low-cost single-shot 22Short conversion with locked slide could be created to render any 1911 frame into an exempt single-shot, as well.

Along those lines if the recoil spring from a 1911 were removed do you think that would be enough to consider it single shot? There isn't a requirement to shoot the pistol in that configuration, simply do a safehandling demonstration. Or maybe put in a really strong spring that can be pulled by hand but won't cycle the action. Could similar methods be used in other pistols? Berettas, Sigs, etc.?

[sintax]

where would one find a slide like that?? I've done a few google searches but no luck