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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 12-14-2013, 3:53 PM
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Default ITAR:Federal Felony to Teach Gun Safety to Non-Citizens

http://blog.joehuffman.org/2013/12/13/itar-update/

Kind of scary. I know Joe Huffman and would not consider him an alarmist.

Here in the Bay Area I often encounter folks here on tourist or work visas who are fascinated by the opportunity to shoot a gun for the first time.

Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 12-14-2013, 4:51 PM
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One would hope that the principle de minimis would be applied, but with our modern jurisprudence...eek
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Old 12-14-2013, 5:43 PM
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Reading that blog, which is just opinion, it sounds like he asked someone, who asked someone else, who asked someone else. It's FUD

"NRA cannot provide any assistance in training foreign persons due to conflicting information from the U.S. Government regarding regulations pertinent to foreign persons and arms training."

More FUD.
edit: We'll see if the folks at DTC even want to answer this questions since it isn't related to ITAR. Teaching the basic NRA safety course isn't a controlled item.

Last edited by dwtt; 12-15-2013 at 10:02 AM..
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Old 12-14-2013, 7:05 PM
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dwtt, thank you; I'll PM you my contact info in a moment. I'd be delighted to speak with the right person if he or she'd be willing to discuss with me.
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  #5  
Old 12-14-2013, 9:53 PM
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I kind of call BS on that.

Got a friend in Sweden that would like to visit the US. I'm a firearms owner. Anyone telling me that I can't teach my friend how to safely handle objects in my home can kiss my lily white backside.

And probably his too. Which is even more lily white than mine is.

Edit: It's not like I'm training a terrorist here. I'm actually kinda curious now what his reaction would be.

Handguns are incredibly difficult to obtain in Sweden. My M&P would probably knock his scrawny butt over somehow. *giggles*
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  #6  
Old 12-14-2013, 11:04 PM
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I'm pretty sure a non-citizen can legally purchase and own a firearm in the US with a valid green card, proof of residence, etc..

It would make no sense to make it a felony to train somebody in something he can legally own and use.
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:38 PM
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Does the Department of State really have standing to set up rules about this? Even if they're involved with itar on some levels it still seems out of their area.
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Old 12-15-2013, 12:38 AM
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another example of not thinking policy through...
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Old 12-15-2013, 3:35 AM
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Handguns are incredibly difficult to obtain in Sweden. My M&P would probably knock his scrawny butt over somehow.
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  #10  
Old 12-15-2013, 3:50 AM
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Resident aliens are allowed to shoot, hunt possess firearms. I call this bs.
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Old 12-15-2013, 5:22 AM
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Refuse to follow such an idiotic and unconstitutional law
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  #12  
Old 12-15-2013, 8:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelKent View Post
I'm pretty sure a non-citizen can legally purchase and own a firearm in the US with a valid green card, proof of residence, etc..

It would make no sense to make it a felony to train somebody in something he can legally own and use.
excellent point
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  #13  
Old 12-15-2013, 4:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sl0re10 View Post
Does the Department of State really have standing to set up rules about this? Even if they're involved with itar on some levels it still seems out of their area.

Actually yes and all review is delegated to and performed by the DOD TRADOC IAW Section 121.1 which enumerates 21 categories of the munitions list. Category 1 is firearms. Paragraphs a-h identifies all associated descriptions of non-automatic and semi-automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive. And then talks of application and components. Section I speaks to technical manuals directly associated with section a-h.

This descriptions of technical data that is a phrased used in law that depicts how to field strip a weapon would be the non-licensed export of data if provided to a non-us person. It would be deemed exported without a license if provide to a non-us person whether in the US or overseas.

Violations of ITAR can land you in jail and take money from your wallet.

Now for NRAs four rules of firearms I don't think it's an export without a license having not likely to be in the firearms specifications but the DOD controls the arena.

And yes I represent and act as ITAR monitor at work.

Bottom line - I would not provide firearms technical data to non-us persons.


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Last edited by majtom94; 12-16-2013 at 11:25 AM..
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Old 12-15-2013, 7:47 PM
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Originally Posted by majtom94 View Post
Actually yes and all review is delegated to and performed by the DOD TRADOC IAW Section 121.1 which enumerates 21 categories of the munitions list. Category 1 is firearms. Paragraphs a-h identifies all associated descriptions of non-automatic and semi-automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive. And then talks of application and components. Section I speaks to technical manuals directly associated with section a-h.

This descriptions of technical data that is a phrased used in law that depicts how to field strip a weapon would be the non-licensed export of data if provided to a non-us person. It would be deemed exported without a license if provide to a non-us person whether in the US or overseas.

Violations of ITAR can land you in jail and take money from your wallet.

Now for NRAs four rules of firearms I don't think it's an export without a license having not likely to be in the firearms specifications but the DOD controls the arena.

And yes I represent and act as ITAR monitor at work.

Bottom line - I would not provide firarms technical data to non-us persons.


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ok.
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  #15  
Old 12-15-2013, 7:52 PM
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plenty of NRA members outside the U.S. and non U.S. citizens as well.
Just supporting us.
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  #16  
Old 12-15-2013, 8:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelKent View Post
I'm pretty sure a non-citizen can legally purchase and own a firearm in the US with a valid green card, proof of residence, etc..

It would make no sense to make it a felony to train somebody in something he can legally own and use.
Yes. My first firearm, I had a residents green card when I purchased it.





A resident can also apply for a CCW and not be turned away for not being a citizen. In a few states that has gone to court as well.

The irony of that is… most states require training for a CCW. Including California.
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Old 12-15-2013, 8:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majtom94 View Post
This descriptions of technical data that is a phrased used in law that depicts how to field strip a weapon would be the non-licensed export of data if provided to a non-us person. It would be deemed exported without a license if provide to a non-us person whether in the US or overseas.
Why didn't the government go after all the youtube "how to fieldstrip" and "how to detail strip" your XXXXX gun, as soon as google detects first download from outside of the U.S. ?
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Old 12-15-2013, 8:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majtom94 View Post
Actually yes and all review is delegated to and performed by the DOD TRADOC IAW Section 121.1 which enumerates 21 categories of the munitions list. Category 1 is firearms. Paragraphs a-h identifies all associated descriptions of non-automatic and semi-automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive. And then talks of application and components. Section I speaks to technical manuals directly associated with section a-h.

This descriptions of technical data that is a phrased used in law that depicts how to field strip a weapon would be the non-licensed export of data if provided to a non-us person. It would be deemed exported without a license if provide to a non-us person whether in the US or overseas.

Violations of ITAR can land you in jail and take money from your wallet.

Now for NRAs four rules of firearms I don't think it's an export without a license having not likely to be in the firearms specifications but the DOD controls the arena.

And yes I represent and act as ITAR monitor at work.

Bottom line - I would not provide firarms technical data to non-us persons.
Thank you - the last time I read through ITAR, I came to the same conclusion. Yet another Federal law 90% of the population does not even know exists and that to violate it is a fellony.
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Old 12-15-2013, 9:33 PM
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Originally Posted by majtom94 View Post
Actually yes and all review is delegated to and performed by the DOD TRADOC IAW Section 121.1 which enumerates 21 categories of the munitions list. Category 1 is firearms. Paragraphs a-h identifies all associated descriptions of non-automatic and semi-automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive. And then talks of application and components. Section I speaks to technical manuals directly associated with section a-h.

This descriptions of technical data that is a phrased used in law that depicts how to field strip a weapon would be the non-licensed export of data if provided to a non-us person. It would be deemed exported without a license if provide to a non-us person whether in the US or overseas.

Violations of ITAR can land you in jail and take money from your wallet.

Now for NRAs four rules of firearms I don't think it's an export without a license having not likely to be in the firearms specifications but the DOD controls the arena.

And yes I represent and act as ITAR monitor at work.

Bottom line - I would not provide firarms technical data to non-us persons.


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Thanks for the info.

I dealt with ITAR not from the weapons side but from the cryptography side many many years ago and even then it was only a piece of standard work procedure training, never worked in compliance.

Our guidance was if it is not common information, it is not safe to share with non-us personnel.

The issue is things like field stripping your AR-15, teaching standard safety rules (such as the NRA teaches) etc. do not add up uncommon information by ANY stretch. Youtube will show you tons of these kinds of things for example and they are not in violation. Technical data in particular of anything the NRA teaches etc is all common knowledge.

The Joe Huffman blog post pushes the envelope. Nice and salacious. Raises some eyebrows but providing material and support by teaching basic gun safety is probably not a violation. He brings up a good point though, how much a pain in the butt do you want it to be to prove your point? Maybe it's best to steer clear if you don't feel that strongly about it.

Last edited by rootuser; 12-15-2013 at 9:36 PM..
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riderr View Post
Why didn't the government go after all the youtube "how to fieldstrip" and "how to detail strip" your XXXXX gun, as soon as google detects first download from outside of the U.S. ?
You know the Goverment picks and choose which laws to enforce and when they want to make an example out of someone (Obama/Holder).

I didn't write or enforce the law; I'm only passing on what my reading of what the regulations mean.

And quoting Rootuser above it bears a second reading, "Our guidance was if it is not common information, it is not safe to share with non-us personnel."
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Last edited by majtom94; 12-16-2013 at 11:34 AM..
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:43 AM
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And to really complete this discussion, the following is provided to understand who is a "non-us person".

From Cornell.edu "A U.S. person is someone who holds one of the following: U.S. citizenship, by birth or naturalization; a green card (i.e. lawful permanent residency); or political asylum in the United States.

A non-U.S. person is someone who does not have such a status, even if he or she is in the United States or is a student or employee of Cornell. A transfer of controlled items, information, or software to a non-U.S. person in the United States is deemed an export to the country of their mostly recently acquired citizenship."
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  #22  
Old 12-16-2013, 11:57 AM
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Read 120.11 for exemptions. The sky is not falling.
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:52 PM
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Cool! Here's a link to 120.11, it discusses publicly available information as being exempt. See 120.10 (5) immediately above.

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulati...R_Part_120.pdf
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Old 12-16-2013, 2:54 PM
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Cool! Here's a link to 120.11, it discusses publicly available information as being exempt. See 120.10 (5) immediately above.

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulati...R_Part_120.pdf
This was my point. The article is meant to raise eyebrows, but when you dig in to fact, it's probably not that big of a deal.

The NRA teaching a gun safety class probably is common knowledge or "Public domain" as defined. Again, you can always just not do it if you are that worried about it, but unless some one can point me to a case where NRA safety class instructors are being prosecuted, I'm going to think it's mostly just over-reaction.
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Old 12-16-2013, 5:13 PM
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The only foreigners in the U.S. who are not prohibited persons are either 1. permanent residents (green card holders) or 2. licensed hunters (a license from any U.S. state will do).

All other non-U.S. citizens are technically prohibited persons, who cannot buy or be in possession (keyword here) of firearms or ammunition.

Now we all know a few ranges in Vegas who make big bucks renting full auto firearms and other fun weapons to visitors from other countries. But technically, that's not legal, because that's considered possession.

What I suspect is that it's possible that some agencies are suddenly getting nervous at the idea of foreign visitors getting weapon training in the U.S.
Kinda like some guys from Saudi Arabia took some commercial aircraft flying lessons a decade ago or so with some ulterior motives in mind.
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Old 12-16-2013, 5:33 PM
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The only foreigners in the U.S. who are not prohibited persons are either 1. permanent residents (green card holders) or 2. licensed hunters (a license from any U.S. state will do).

All other non-U.S. citizens are technically prohibited persons, who cannot buy or be in possession (keyword here) of firearms or ammunition.

Now we all know a few ranges in Vegas who make big bucks renting full auto firearms and other fun weapons to visitors from other countries. But technically, that's not legal, because that's considered possession.

What I suspect is that it's possible that some agencies are suddenly getting nervous at the idea of foreign visitors getting weapon training in the U.S.
Kinda like some guys from Saudi Arabia took some commercial aircraft flying lessons a decade ago or so with some ulterior motives in mind.
Lets not forget that in Waikiki (Honolulu) they hand out fliers to Japanese tourists to come and shoot "guns" on every street corner.

I think they do quite well too as Japanese tourists probably have never even held a firearm in their lives, Post WW2 of course.
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Old 12-16-2013, 7:37 PM
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It might depend on the type of training under consideration. Basic firearms safety and marksmanship would probably be OK. However I can an see, military, police or para-military training falling afoul of ITAR.
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Old 12-16-2013, 9:00 PM
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ITAR regs are not designed for your basic NRA shooting courses.

I believe they are designed to prevent former military spec ops from teaching advanced firearm courses to non-citizens without prior authorization or to foreigners from unfriendly countries.
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Old 12-16-2013, 9:38 PM
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I'm an NRA Certified Instructor and got this notification some while back when I was logging into my account:

"NRA cannot provide any assistance in training foreign persons due to conflicting information from the U.S. Government regarding regulations pertinent to foreign persons and arms training. NRA cannot process any requests for assistance in training foreign persons. In view of above, we regret to inform you that NRA will not renew NRA firearm instructor certification for any foreign national."

https://www.nrainstructors.org/Instr...enewLogin.aspx

The ban would seem to apply to legal permanent residents including green card holders. Further, given the wording, at its extreme, it MAY be that the NRA would refuse training and refuse to renew the instructor certification of those naturalized US citizens who are also citizens of any other country. No? Read on . .

Wiki : "According to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security a foreign national is defined simply as "an individual who is a citizen of any country other than the United States."

Now, according to wiki other organs of government rules/interpretations are different: ". . the U.S. Department of Energy, further explains that, from the perspective of the United States, a foreign national is, "A person who was born outside the jurisdiction of the United States, is a citizen of a foreign country, and has not become a naturalized U.S. citizen under U.S. law"

The above definition would exempt naturalized citizens who are also nationals of another country, from the ban.

Last edited by winslowgirl; 12-16-2013 at 9:52 PM..
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Old 12-17-2013, 6:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winslowgirl View Post
I'm an NRA Certified Instructor and got this notification some while back when I was logging into my account:

"NRA cannot provide any assistance in training foreign persons due to conflicting information from the U.S. Government regarding regulations pertinent to foreign persons and arms training. NRA cannot process any requests for assistance in training foreign persons. In view of above, we regret to inform you that NRA will not renew NRA firearm instructor certification for any foreign national."

https://www.nrainstructors.org/Instr...enewLogin.aspx

The ban would seem to apply to legal permanent residents including green card holders. Further, given the wording, at its extreme, it MAY be that the NRA would refuse training and refuse to renew the instructor certification of those naturalized US citizens who are also citizens of any other country. No? Read on . .

Wiki : "According to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security a foreign national is defined simply as "an individual who is a citizen of any country other than the United States."

Now, according to wiki other organs of government rules/interpretations are different: ". . the U.S. Department of Energy, further explains that, from the perspective of the United States, a foreign national is, "A person who was born outside the jurisdiction of the United States, is a citizen of a foreign country, and has not become a naturalized U.S. citizen under U.S. law"

The above definition would exempt naturalized citizens who are also nationals of another country, from the ban.
It also exempts permanent residents, who are not considered "foreign persons".
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Old 12-17-2013, 6:29 AM
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It might depend on the type of training under consideration. Basic firearms safety and marksmanship would probably be OK. However I can an see, military, police or para-military training falling afoul of ITAR.
No, it doesn't depend. Possession is possession.
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Old 12-17-2013, 9:17 PM
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It also exempts permanent residents, who are not considered "foreign persons".
Yes, and it may be operant WRT the NRA ban on training (that would be up to the NRA).

Yet. if the wiki citations are accurate, permanent residents ARE considered foreign nationals according to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, the U.S. Department of Energy et al, and that brings us to the salience of this wording and definition to the following statement from the NRA:

" [The] NRA will not renew NRA firearm instructor certification for any foreign national".

https://www.nrainstructors.org/Instr...enewLogin.aspx

Best thing to do is call and see what they say.
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Old 12-17-2013, 10:17 PM
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I'll pay just about as much attention to ITAR as I do to the laws about magazine capacity or FFL transfers or the tag on my mattress that says "DO NOT REMOVE".
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Old 12-18-2013, 8:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winslowgirl View Post
Yes, and it may be operant WRT the NRA ban on training (that would be up to the NRA).

Yet. if the wiki citations are accurate, permanent residents ARE considered foreign nationals according to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, the U.S. Department of Energy et al, and that brings us to the salience of this wording and definition to the following statement from the NRA:

" [The] NRA will not renew NRA firearm instructor certification for any foreign national".

https://www.nrainstructors.org/Instr...enewLogin.aspx

Best thing to do is call and see what they say.
Permanent residents are foreign nationals, but they're also U.S. persons.

I don't have my U.S. citizenship yet, and I would be very upset at the NRA if next year I am turned down for a training simply because my green card and 14 years in this country are not enough yet, even though I have a FFL03 and on my way to get a CCW.
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Old 12-18-2013, 12:06 PM
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LMTluvr LMTluvr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarville View Post
It might depend on the type of training under consideration. Basic firearms safety and marksmanship would probably be OK. However I can an see, military, police or para-military training falling afoul of ITAR.
This.
The pivotal factor is the training you are providing. If it's some high speed low drag stuff that's currently in use by armed forces, thus potentially providing an advantage to the enemy fighting them it may be considered a violation.
I think that's reasonable.
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Old 12-18-2013, 12:27 PM
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I'm a non-citizen with a permanent resident status, I've taken about 72 hrs in various classes where nobody batted an eye.
I have an IL firearms owner id card, UT and FL ccw permits and a C&R license.

If there was a problem with non-citizens, it's not with permanent residents
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Old 12-18-2013, 9:37 PM
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Default ITAR:Federal Felony to Teach Gun Safety to Non-Citizens

Again a US-person include permanment resident.


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