Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

[ke6guj]

Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

Well, if you look at the CA penal code, there are a couple exemptions to the AOW/SBS/SBR prohibitions in 12020. A couple of the 12020 exemptions do not require CA DOJ permission to acquire an AOW/SBS/SBR, just Federal NFA permission. If we follow the pertinent code (cleaned up to remove non-relevant code) regarding short barrel shotguns and rifles, we see the following:

12001.5. Except as expressly provided in Section 12020, and solely in accordance with Section 12020, no person may manufacture, import into this state, keep for sale, offer for sale, give, lend, or possess any short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020, and nothing else in this chapter shall be construed as authorizing the manufacture, importation into this state, keeping for sale, offering for sale, or giving, lending, or possession of any short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.

12001.5 basically state that SBS/SBR are illegal unless allowed per 12020.

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses ..... any cane gun or wallet gun, … any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container,… any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle ..... any unconventional pistol

12020a basically reiterates that AOW/SBS/SBR are illegal with the following exemptions.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
(2) The manufacture, possession, transportation or sale of short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles when authorized by the Department of Justice pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with Section 12095) of this chapter and not in violation of federal law.
(7) Any firearm or ammunition that is a curio or relic as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the items pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(8) Any other weapon as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the weapons pursuant to the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto. …. The exemption provided in this subdivision does not apply to pen guns.

12020b lists exemptions to the prohibitions in 12001.5 and 12020a.

12020b2 allows possession if you get a permit from the CA DOJ per 12095.
12020b7 allows possession if the firearm is a C&R SBS/SBR as defined by the NFA and is properly registered per the NFA.
12020b8 allows possession if the firearm is an AOW (with the exception of pen guns) as defined by the NFA and is properly registered per the NFA.

ARTICLE 6. PERMITS
12095. (a) If it finds that it does not endanger the public safety, the Department of Justice may issue permits initially valid for a period of one year, and renewable annually thereafter, for the manufacture, possession, transportation, or sale of short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles upon a showing that good cause exists for the issuance thereof to the applicant for the permit. No permit shall be issued to a person who is under 18 years of age.
(b) Good cause, for the purposes of this section, shall be limited to only the following:
(1) The permit is sought for the manufacture, possession, or use with blank cartridges, of a short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun, solely as props for a motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment event.
(2) The permit is sought for the manufacture of, exposing for sale, keeping for sale, sale of, importation or lending of short-barreled rifles or short-barreled shotguns to the entities listed in paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 12020 by persons who are licensed as dealers or manufacturers under the provisions of Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code, as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

This is the code pertaining to DOJ-issued permits, which, as long as we comply with 12020b7/8, we are exempted from. So, if we are exempt ourselves from 12095 by complying with 12020b7/8, we still need comply with the NFA. We do that by submitting in duplicate, 2 sets of the NFA Form 1 or Form 4 along with 2 sets of fingerprints and photos. You will also need to pay the transfer fee for the tax stamp. The stamp costs $200 for any Form 1 (application to make an NFA weapon such as an AOW, SBS, or SBR) or a Form 4 (application to transfer an existing C&R SBS or SBR). An AOW on a Form 4 transfers for $5 instead of $200.

Part of the process is to get your CLEO to sign-off on your application. The CLEO is the Chief Law Enforcement Officer of your area, usually your Sheriff or Chief of Police. Other people are also acceptable to do signoffs per the ATF, such as the District Attorney or Judges. If the CLEO is unwilling to sign-off, which they can refuse to do for any reason, there are other ways to get an approved Form 1/4 without a CLEO sign-off.

Those ways would include submitting the Form1/4 using a Corporation or Trust. As a legal entity, they are not required to get a CLEO sign-off or submit fingerprints or photos. When you submit your Form 1/4 application, you will need to submit your Corp/Trust documents to prove that it is a legal entity.

The ATF will do a background check on you and if you pass, which if you can buy a regular gun, you should, they will mark the Form 1/4 approved, retain one of the Forms in the ATF's files, and attach a cancelled tax stamp to the other Form. That Form with the cancelled tax stamp will be returned to you as your "permission slip" from the ATF showing that you are legal.

There may be a couple minor points I missed along the way, but the overall procedure is laid out.

Now that we have the legal requirements laid out, we can get into the fun stuff. What can we do with this info? Well, once we know what we want, we either build our own 12020b7/8-exempt NFA firearm on a Form 1, or find a local Class 3 dealer that is willing to work with us to transfer the 12020b7/8-exempt firearm on a Form 4 to us.

Under 12020b8, we can build/buy an AOW, which are weapons that don’t really fall into the pistol, rifle, or shotgun mold. The most common example would be the short-barrel shotgun-type weapons that don't have a shoulder-stock and have never had a shoulder-stock. An Example would be the Serbu Super-Shorty. Some Combo guns with a shotgun and rifle barrels less than 18" are AOW.
Pen guns fall are AOW, but they don't fall under the 12020b8 exemption. They are specifically excluded from the 12020b8 exemption. But other types of gadget guns like cane/crutch/flashlight guns should be exempt.

Under 12020b7, if we want a SBS or SBR, it needs to be a curio & relic as defined by the ATF. A C&R is defined as:

To be recognized by ATF as a C&R firearm, a firearm must fall into at least one of the following three categories:
1. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest;
3. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

If you find an existing C&R SBS/SBR, you can transfer it on a Form4.

For CA and Michigan (has a similar law requiring C&R SBS/SBR), The ATF has approved the making of an SBS/SBR on a Form 1 out of existing C&R firearms.seems that this method is no longer acceptable to ATF.

These exemptions only apply to AOWs and C&R SBS/SBR. There are no C&R exemptions for Machineguns, DDs, or AWs. There is a C&R exemption for 50BMG rifles. CA’s DD rules start at .60”, so if you wanted a DD between .51” and .60”, you would only need to get ATF approval, not CA DOJ.

The ATF will not approve any transfer that would violate state law.


AOW-legal hosts include Mossberg Cruiser PG-only shotguns or Remington 870 model 24823. Don't know of other modern shotguns sold with PG-only. New AOW option is a fixed-mag pistol build like a AK, AR, or HK51 with a Vertical Forward Grip. With a fixed-mag, it is not an AW and you can get an AOW Form 1 to put a VFG on it.

CA NFA trust atty.

possible ATF change on C&R SBS/SBR Form 1

List of public-friendly CA NFA dealers willing to sell to the public

[Hopi]

I don't believe there is a C&R requirement, the info is under "(e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code".....Am i wrong?

(e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code reads:

The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

[DrjonesUSA]

Very interesting.

Does an LLC count as a corporation/legal entity in the eyes of the storm troopers?

[Hopi]

Originally Posted by DrjonesUSA

Very interesting.

Does an LLC count as a corporation/legal entity in the eyes of the storm troopers?

Yes, but my question is whether or not a new and separate entity (vs. an established LLC) would be favorable if established solely for the ownership of these. Would there be any advantage to incorporate in NV?

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by Hopi

I don't believe there is a C&R requirement, the info is under "(e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code".....Am i wrong?

The C&R requirement is if you want a SBS or SBR. There is no C&R requirement for an AOW.

[Hopi]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

The C&R requirement is if you want a SBS or SBR. There is no C&R requirement for an AOW.

Ahhh, yes. I have been tracking the AOW thing, i had prematurely ruled out the SBR/SBS weapons. So for SBRs, we could hypothetically use one of our C&R rifles, submit Form 1, and upon receipt of the cancelled tax stamp, cut our barrel down?

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by Hopi

Yes, but my question is whether or not a new and separate entity (vs. an established LLC) would be favorable if established solely for the ownership of these. Would there be any advantage to incorporate in NV?

Those would be questions for your lawyer. For instance, if creating a new LLC for just your NFA stuff would be a good idea to keep those assets separate from the exisitng LLC.

Incorporating in NV would give you access to non-CA NFA stuff, but those items would have be kept out of CA. You'd also have to have a registered agent in NV, and maybe register in CA as a foreign corp, I think.

A CA trust is easy to do and meets NFA requirements. You could use a lawyer to draft one up or use a program like Quicken Willmaker to do it. A lot of people have done the willmaker route, so much that the NFA now has a lawyer vet the trusts to make sure they are valid. If I was in another state where full-auto was legal and I had the $$$$$ to buy one, I'd probably spend the $$$ for a lawyer to draft one up. But if the lawyer fees are more than the cost of the AOW/SBS/SBR, willmaker should be good enough.

The Class 3 section of ar15.com has a lot of info on corps and trusts.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by Hopi

Ahhh, yes. I have been tracking the AOW thing, i had prematurely ruled out the SBR/SBS weapons. So for SBRs, we could hypothetically use one of our C&R rifles, submit Form 1, and upon receipt of the cancelled tax stamp, cut our barrel down?

The ATF has approved that method in CA and in Michigan. Michigan has a similar "must be C&R" law.

[whomper]

Alot of folks, in other states, are setting up trusts and placing NFA items under them. I do not know what it takes to set up a trust, but it might be easier than a coprporation or LLC.

ETA:
ke6guj beat me to it.

[Florida Gun Trust Lawyer]

I have written many articles on the advantages and differences in using a trust compared to other business entities such as a Corporation or LLC. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.

Primarily the reason people use trusts is because of the ability to maintain them with little or no ongoing yearly costs associated as compared to Corporations or LLC's.

Each state has its own specific issues to deal with. If you need help contacting a Gun trust lawyer or know of one in CA please let me know and I will see what I can do to help, put you in touch with someone who can help you.

[Hopi]

Originally Posted by Florida Gun Trust Lawyer

I have written many articles on the advantages and differences in using a trust compared to other business entities such as a Corporation or LLC. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.

Primarily the reason people use trusts is because of the ability to maintain them with little or no ongoing yearly costs associated as compared to Corporations or LLC's.

Each state has its own specific issues to deal with. If you need help contacting a Gun trust lawyer or know of one in CA please let me know and I will see what I can do to help, put you in touch with someone who can help you.

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the help!!

[BaronW]

So... someone could buy a C&R break-action shotgun, pay the $200 tax stamp, and then take a hacksaw to it, or would it no longer be an exempt C&R because it was just re manufactured as an SBS?

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by BaronW

So... someone could buy a C&R break-action shotgun, pay the $200 tax stamp, and then take a hacksaw to it,

The ATF has approved that method in CA and in Michigan. Michigan has a similar "must be C&R" law.

[shonc99]

Question about C&R firearms:

How does a firearm become "certified" by way of #3? Are there any examples where a firearm is C&R eligible and ISN'T more than 50 years old?

3. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

[ar15barrels]

Very interesting...

I did not realize there was no specific rule against AOW's.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

I did not realize there was no specific rule against AOW's.

Yup, AOWs are legal in CA (pen guns excepted) as long as they are properly registered with the Feds.

[monkey]

I did this research years ago and don't have any reference materials in front of me at the moment, but as I remember, CA Penal Code differs expressly from federal law regarding an AOW in the form of a shotgun. 12001(a)(2)(f) bridges "pistol" to "short-barreled rifle" and "short-barreled shotgun". This language does not exist in federal law which allows a "Smooth-Bore Pistol" AOW to exist separately from "Short-Barrled Shotgun" though the two can be physically identical.

A Serbu Super Shorty, while maybe an AOW according to federal law, is still a short-barreled shotgun according to CA Penal Code.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by monkey

A Serbu Super Shorty, while maybe an AOW according to federal law, is still a short-barreled shotgun according to CA Penal Code.

Untrue. Paragraph 12020(b)(8) says 12020(a) is not applicable.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by monkey

A Serbu Super Shorty, while maybe an AOW according to federal law, is still a short-barreled shotgun according to CA Penal Code.

If it is registered as an AOW with the ATF, then 12020b8 applies as an exemption to 12020a no matter if CA says it is a short barrel shotgun or unconventional pistol.

edit: too slow

[monkey]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

If it is registered as an AOW with the ATF, then 12020b8 applies as an exemption to 12020a no matter if CA says it is a short barrel shotgun or unconventional pistol.

edit: too slow

I'm happy to be wrong. But who lives in an area where getting the CLEO is remotely possible?

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by monkey

I'm happy to be wrong. But who lives in an area where getting the CLEO is remotely possible?

Thats why you go with a trust or corp, they don't require CLEO sign-off, and with a 12020b7/8 exempt firearm, you don't need the CA DOJ permit as well, just NFA approval.

YOu can do a trust with Quicken Willmaker that will pass NFA muster for under $100, or get a lawyer to draft one up for you.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by monkey

I'm happy to be wrong. But who lives in an area where getting the CLEO is remotely possible?

Do the trust.

The more challenging thing might be finding a local NFA dealer to go along and do the transfer.

[Mr. Ed]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Do the trust.

The more challenging thing might be finding a local NFA dealer to go along and do the transfer.

If you can get ATF approval for AOW, can you just make a single shot ar pistol into an AOW (ie. adding a forward pistol grip)?

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by Mr. Ed

If you can get ATF approval for AOW, can you just make a single shot ar pistol into an AOW (ie. adding a forward pistol grip)?

Interesting, have to look into that. However, if you wanted to later convert the single-shot into a semi-auto, your AOW status won't help you regarding the AW status of a semiautomatic pistol with 2 handgrips, or if you wanted to have it with a detachable mag.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Mr. Ed

If you can get ATF approval for AOW, can you just make a single shot ar pistol into an AOW (ie. adding a forward pistol grip)?

That's a thought...

Is there an area of the state laws specifically exempting NFA registered items from the state's AW rules or do you have to comply with both?

A regular AR pistol with a forward pistol grip would be an AW per the state.
Is there a solid exemption to do this on an NFA registed gun?

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by monkey

I'm happy to be wrong. But who lives in an area where getting the CLEO is remotely possible?

No CLEO sig needed on Form 4 if trust created.

[ke6guj]

There are some nice possibilities with the AOW exemption. You could get a Taurus Judge rebarrelled with a smooth-bore barrel and AOW it. Hard part is getting a hold of it to file the Form 1 on it. How to get it in hand legally? Get it with a .45 only cylinder? It would still need to be on the Roster unless it was a single-action. Once in hand, you could file a form 1 to AOW it. Get the Form 1 approved, install the smooth-bore barrel, install a .45/.410 cylinder and convert to double-action. SOunds like a lot of work.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Is there an area of the state laws specifically exempting NFA registered items from the state's AW rules or do you have to comply with both?

The only NFA registered exemptions I found were 12020b7/8 and those only apply to 12020 prohibitions, which include SBS, SBR, and AOWs. I haven't seen any relevant exemptions to AWs at all. However, if you did already have a registered AW that was a C&R, you could possibly Form 1 it into an SBS/SBR. A Form 1 on a non-registered-AW semi-auto C&R rifle wouldn't help you since if you went under 30" OAL, you'd trigger AW status.

[quoteA regular AR pistol with a forward pistol grip would be an AW per the state.
Is there a solid exemption to do this on an NFA registed gun?[/QUOTE]haven't seen that exemption.

[vandal]

Why did you pick a break-action for your example? Why not a C&R pump 12 ga? Ithaca 37 maybe (haven't checked the list yet but I think it is at least 50 years old.)

Originally Posted by BaronW

So... someone could buy a C&R break-action shotgun, pay the $200 tax stamp, and then take a hacksaw to it, or would it no longer be an exempt C&R because it was just re manufactured as an SBS?

[Hopi]

Originally Posted by vandal

Why did you pick a break-action for your example? Why not a C&R pump 12 ga? Ithaca 37 maybe (haven't checked the list yet but I think it is at least 50 years old.)

There are a few pump and auto-loading shotguns that are C&R eligible.

[DRM6000]

Originally Posted by shonc99

Question about C&R firearms:

How does a firearm become "certified" by way of #3? Are there any examples where a firearm is C&R eligible and ISN'T more than 50 years old?

i believe a ruger model is considered a curio (anniversary edition 10/22 or mkII)

[RANGER295]

Originally Posted by DRM6000

i believe a ruger model is considered a curio (anniversary edition 10/22 or mkII)

Yes, I just looked that up and that specific edition of the 12/22 is C&R. So does that mean that I could buy one, get a stamp for it, then put a short barrel on it and convert it to FA?

Secondly, I agree that I can not find any exemption from the AWB for any NFA items. Other than a few, this eliminates a good portion of the available SBR’s and machine guns. They either have pistol grips, are center-fire and under 30”, have folding stocks, or a combination of all of those things and more. This is unless the SB 23 AWB does not apply to some of them by definition. IIRC, it states “a Semiautomatic center-fire rifle with…” or “a Semiautomatic pistol with…” The key word being “semiautomatic”. If the weapon were full-auto or burst (are there any burst C&R?) would it not apply based on the generic features because it is not semiauto? Just a thought.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by vandal

Why not a C&R pump 12 ga? Ithaca 37 maybe (haven't checked the list yet but I think it is at least 50 years old.)

An Ithaca 37 would be a good choice

From 1937 to 1957 would be C&R, pretty much any serial # under 704,000.

Other C&R guns would be Winchester M1897 and M1912, Remington Model 11, Browning A-5, even the first 7 years of production of the 870.

[Hopi]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

An Ithaca 37 would be a good choice

From 1937 to 1957 would be C&R, pretty much any serial # under 704,000.

Other C&R guns would be Winchester M1897 and M1912, Remington Model 11, Browning A-5, even the first 7 years of production of the 870.

You devil
My choice would be the Browning A-5. They are expensive to start, so we're talking at least $1000 after she's home in the safe. It would be worth it.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by RANGER295

Yes, I just looked that up and that specific edition of the 12/22 is C&R. So does that mean that I could buy one, get a stamp for it, then put a short barrel on it and convert it to FA?

Yes, there is a commemorative Canadian edtion C&R 10/22 that was Form 1'ed in Michigan as an C&R SBR. No, you can't convert to FA. No new FA's can be made for civilian use after 1986. And there is no exemptions in CA for FA that we can use with this method, only AOW/SBS/SBR .

Secondly, I agree that I can not find any exemption from the AWB for any NFA items. Other than a few, this eliminates a good portion of the available SBR’s and machine guns. They either have pistol grips, are center-fire and under 30”, have folding stocks, or a combination of all of those things and more. This is unless the SB 23 AWB does not apply to some of them by definition.

The only way this exemption could help is if you already had a registered AW that was C&R that you wanted to SBS/SBR. Maybe in 10-20 years, this exemption may open up for some of the older registered AWs.

IIRC, it states “a Semiautomatic center-fire rifle with…” or “a Semiautomatic pistol with…” The key word being “semiautomatic”. If the weapon were full-auto or burst (are there any burst C&R?) would it not apply based on the generic features because it is not semiauto? Just a thought.

If it were full-auto or burst, then you wouldn't have to worry about the AW rules, because you'd be dealing with the machinegun rules.

And yes, there are C&R machineguns. Anything made before 1957 or listed specifically, like the Stoner 63.

edit: Just to re-iterate, No you can't use this method to get/build a machinegun or suppressor. And you could get into unregistered AW areas if you aren't careful. This link is your friend, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/ , read it well. Parse everything you read carefully and then read it again There are exemptions that are available to us, just have to find them without triggering a prohibition somewhere else.

[shonc99]

Are there any other examples of C&R firearms that are more modern?

Come on people, this could be the beginning of a mini "OLL" type situation.

[jdberger]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

An Ithaca 37 would be a good choice

From 1937 to 1957 would be C&R, pretty much any serial # under 704,000.

Other C&R guns would be Winchester M1897 and M1912, Remington Model 11, Browning A-5, even the first 7 years of production of the 870.

Oh great....now we're gonna see a run on Ithaca 37s....!

[Yankee Clipper]

Good job ke6guj, makes forum users think and lets 1st time visitors know that one of the main things we do here make sure our firearms are legal and continue to expand, whenever possible, the numbers that fall into that category.

[TheMan]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Do the trust.

The more challenging thing might be finding a local NFA dealer to go along and do the transfer.

If you started out with a pistol grip equipped shotgun, did the trust, then filled out the NFA paperwork yourself to create the AOW, you wouldn't need any NFA dealer or LEO signoffs, right?

Then once you got the paperwork, you could legally modify it to a config like the Serbu. Or am I missing something?

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by TheMan

If you started out with a pistol grip equipped shotgun, did the trust, then filled out the NFA paperwork yourself to create the AOW, you wouldn't need any NFA dealer or LEO signoffs, right?

Then once you got the paperwork, you could legally modify it to a config like the Serbu. Or am I missing something?

Yup, if it was a pistol-gripped shotgun, and has never had a stock attached, you could do a Form 1 for an AOW with a trust with no CLEO signoff and no need for an NFA dealer.

Once you get the Form 1 approved, then go ahead and create your own Super Shorty. Just make sure that you never attach a stock to it or you will have created an illegal SBS.