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  #1  
Old 08-26-2013, 7:17 PM
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Default Troy Industries hired Ruby Ridge sniper

I will never buy another Troy product as long as I live. I really liked their gear, but strangely enough I don't like buying from a company who hires a guy who said he'd have shot Vicky Weaver if someone else didn't get there first.

http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=8860

Goodbye, Troy. Lucky for me there isn't anything you make that isn't as well made by a dozen other companies. You are judged by the company you keep.
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eh why bring logic into this, that makes too much sense... besides when you have bested a fool, you have accomplished nothing and he is a fool.
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  #2  
Old 08-26-2013, 7:37 PM
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****'s deep. Props to gunssavelives for putting them on blast. Also is a little strange they took their entire instructor roster off the internet.

In reality though; The sheriff of my county was a commanding officer at ruby ridge. And is now holding public office, and one of power. THAT disgusts me. But your normal person doesn't even bat an eye to it. I'm just gonna stop this here.
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  #3  
Old 08-26-2013, 7:42 PM
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Foul
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  #4  
Old 08-26-2013, 7:46 PM
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I read about this yesterday. Such a bummer.
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  #5  
Old 08-26-2013, 7:47 PM
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All of this is on their FB, including their response. I think it's way overblown and will continue to purchase Troy products.
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  #6  
Old 08-26-2013, 7:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.1904 View Post
****'s deep. Props to gunssavelives for putting them on blast. Also is a little strange they took their entire instructor roster off the internet.

In reality though; The sheriff of my county was a commanding officer at ruby ridge. And is now holding public office, and one of power. THAT disgusts me. But your normal person doesn't even bat an eye to it. I'm just gonna stop this here.

Out him = Sheriff Gore !!
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  #7  
Old 08-26-2013, 8:07 PM
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troy modular combat grip for sale
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  #8  
Old 08-26-2013, 8:10 PM
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there is one company I will never buy from. never heard of them before this thread but because they hired that guy I wont buy from them.
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  #9  
Old 08-26-2013, 8:11 PM
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send it alll here
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  #10  
Old 08-26-2013, 9:31 PM
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To tell you the truth there are better alternative companies than Troy products. Personally I never considered them to be top grade compared to others
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  #11  
Old 08-26-2013, 9:43 PM
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Thumbs down

Didn't they hear about HS Precision?

http://gunsnplanes.blogspot.com/2011...es-as-one.html
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  #12  
Old 08-26-2013, 10:01 PM
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4hrs ago from their FB page

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I appreciate having the opportunity to speak to members of this forum. Troy Asymmetric, part of the “World of Troy,” is a business entity with a director who until this past week, held exclusive hiring authority. I am its owner, it bears my name and as we have witnessed in recent days, effects public opinion of all Troy divisions. Earlier this week, I terminated an instructor who did not support the Second Amendment as ardently as I and members of the community do.

Troy Asymmetric provides training to military and law enforcement personnel. If you spend 5 seconds on the website you’ll see a graphical depiction of a bomb explosion - the primary focus of the company. Take a moment to read the course list and you’ll note a common theme: training pertaining to explosions, bomb threats, post-blast crime scenes, incident command and crisis management. Instructors’ primary areas of expertise lie in the “bomb world,” with EOD experience, critical incident response, and tactical decision making. Some posters on the forum have said we only train “Jack Booted Thugs” and there is a secret agenda. These same posters conveniently ignore Troy Prepared: www.troyprepared.com. Troy Asymmetric to this date has offered no firearms training for Gov’t and LE, but in comparison, Troy Prepared has always offered firearms training to qualified civilians. From a factual, non-emotional context, it is impossible to draw the conclusion that we somehow do not support the Second Amendment and are only training “secret army”.

On August 22, 1992, Dale was an HRT Operator tasked to a mission in which he found himself facing armed adversaries. His thoughts were not only on the situation at hand, but the tragic death of a child and a U.S. Marshal. During this type of confrontation when people die, you don’t have the ability to pick sides, they are drawn before you arrive. Dale did what he was trained to do as a sniper / observer. He was fortunate not to have to take a life at this engagement. Special Agent Horiuchi made the regrettable shot, a mistake for which he will never be forgiven. Of the FBI Agents assigned to the Ruby Ridge tragedy, Dale has been one of the most outspoken. He has delivered dozens of presentations to more than 1000 civilians titled “Mistakes and Lessons of Ruby Ridge”. I weighed carefully the decision whether or not to retain Dale and could find no ethical or moral reason to remove him. Dale has not committed a criminal act, he answered all questions honestly, he did not cover anything up and he did not shoot anyone at Ruby Ridge. Dale was asked to join TA for his critical incident management expertise. Dale was never slated by TA for firearms instruction.

We all know from our biggest failures come the greatest lessons in life. Providing training that is relevant with experienced, qualified instructors can prevent a tragedy like Ruby Ridge. Dale will be able to deliver this powerful message and lessons learned in crisis management and incident command. I am driven and passionate about bringing effective change through pertinent training and speakers that have lived through these nightmares. Many times I have seen posts in forums that state “if you weren’t there then SDASTFU”, with that same school of thought, there is no one better than Dale to speak about tragedies like Ruby Ridge.

I have been a longtime and outspoken supporter of the Second Amendment. I always choose to do what’s right, even if my stance goes against others opinion. I will not throw this man to the wolves as he has demonstrated throughout his life high integrity and honor. I know most of those who would disagree are using this forum to voice your anger towards the United States Government. In some cases that anger is justified. The Ruby Ridge tragedy and the loss of life there make no bigger example of abuse of power and Government gone wrong. However, I disagree with your personal attacks on my family and company as we are not the Government and we are not training “Jack Booted Thugs”. I am a patriot and I swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of The United States, all of it. Those who have taken that same oath recognize the importance of keeping it. Thank you. -Steve Troy
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  #13  
Old 08-26-2013, 10:13 PM
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Sounds like he has Horiuchi's back the whole way. I won't be buying any Troy products. And I'll tell others about this.
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  #14  
Old 08-26-2013, 10:13 PM
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I forget the South Dakota rifle manufacturer that has hired Lon Horiuchi.

After Vicky Weaver was murdered, the Clintoon admin responded by promoting the master mind of Ruby Ridge, to a higher position. I think it was Larry Potts.

I don't believe we need to fear the Lon Horiuchis or this other sniper, they are paid assassins for the admin that encourages them .

The Democratic Party and its NewYork times were great admirers of Joe Stalin.
I think ruby ridge is an example of how much respect for Americans the Democratic Party has. They thought no more of killing those they disagree with than paying to abort a million unborn baby's .

Calguners not complying with state or fed gun laws, may want to contemplate how far the democratic state or fed govt will go, to make examples of these hate filled owners of killing machines !

Nationally a precedent has been set and fed gov faced no consequences. I recall Feinstein covering for the ruby ridge killers .
Yet Californians rewarded her with several more terms .

Steve Troy did write a good letter. I can think of of others with less honor.

Last edited by ja308; 08-26-2013 at 11:16 PM..
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  #15  
Old 08-26-2013, 10:28 PM
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Cool! Maybe some mad soul will sell me their Troy BUIS for a good price
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  #16  
Old 08-26-2013, 10:29 PM
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I have no dog in this fight. I do not use their products because I have no need for them. No other reason.

However growing up I learned that you are judged by the company you keep. Also birds of a feather flock together. It would be hard for me to respect the owner or the company of ANYONE who would hire this guy. Just the same for anyone who would be around OJ.

The Ex-FBI guy "in my opinion" just did as much damage control as he could after the fact, just like the others who were involved in the Ruby Ridge(also Waco) abuse of power when the truth came out. He may retract or pretend he said nothing. However what he said then shows a mindset and attitude.

If someone in the firearms and related industries hires him then reguardless of their 2nd admen talk/actions before hiring they are showing little real respect to it or the people of this country. The fact he was part(acessory) of murder and other things that they got away with.
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  #17  
Old 08-26-2013, 11:52 PM
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In my opinion, what a slimy bunch.
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  #18  
Old 08-27-2013, 12:59 AM
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I'd get rid of my Troy rail if I could afford A Daniel Defense or Spikes/ Seekins rail. Anyone wanna trade? Lol.

Troy TRX Standard, 9".
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  #19  
Old 08-27-2013, 2:19 AM
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The guards at auschwitz where just doing their jobs too.
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  #20  
Old 08-27-2013, 4:56 AM
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The guards at auschwitz where just doing their jobs too.
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  #21  
Old 08-27-2013, 7:15 AM
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The guards at auschwitz where just doing their jobs too.
Going a bit far?

The guy didn't even take a shot..

But he did make a stupid comment.. I don't know the guy, so I can't speak to his character, but I'm not ready to throw a whole company under the bus because they hired one guy, who didn't commit a crime, and who's only fault is a couple of stupid statements.

To me Troy seems like a stand up company. I'm not a fan of thier mags, but I do like thier iron sights and while I will look at thier competitiors closer when I buy new stuff, I'm not getting rid of anything I already have.

This community is way to fast to eat itself when one of it's members does any little thing that "upsets the masses".. I'm sure the antis giggle a bit when we do this.
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  #22  
Old 08-27-2013, 7:23 AM
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On August 22, 1992, Dale was an HRT Operator tasked to a mission in which he found himself facing armed adversaries. His thoughts were not only on the situation at hand, but the tragic death of a child and a U.S. Marshal. During this type of confrontation when people die, you don’t have the ability to pick sides, they are drawn before you arrive. Dale did what he was trained to do as a sniper / observer.
I will have to disagree with Mr. Troy on this aspect. Any man there during that incident had the choice at anytime to refuse an order, or even lay down his weapon and resign.

Mr. Troy acknowledges that Rudy Ridge was an example of abusive Gov't. Gov't is not an entity unto itself. It is made up of people. The Gov't abuse and murder committed there was perpetrated by people. And anyone there that day bare the responsibility for the abuses that occurred.

If people like Mr. Troy are going to reward people like them with good paying jobs then there is no incentive for people who find themselves in those positions to make better choices. If this man was so honorable then he would share his experiences free of charge, rather than make a living standing on Vicky Weaver's grave.
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Old 08-27-2013, 7:30 AM
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Going a bit far?

The guy didn't even take a shot..

But he did make a stupid comment.. I don't know the guy, so I can't speak to his character, but I'm not ready to throw a whole company under the bus because they hired one guy, who didn't commit a crime, and who's only fault is a couple of stupid statements.


To me Troy seems like a stand up company. I'm not a fan of thier mags, but I do like thier iron sights and while I will look at thier competitiors closer when I buy new stuff, I'm not getting rid of anything I already have.

This community is way to fast to eat itself when one of it's members does any little thing that "upsets the masses".. I'm sure the antis giggle a bit when we do this.
Guilt by association. He was there acting in support of illegal orders which were the result of Gov't agents engaging in entrapment.

The simple questions are: Did he refuse the illegal orders? Did he do anything to stop Gov't ordered murder of unarmed civilians? Did he do anything after the fact to bring anyone to justice for their crimes?

If the answers to any of those are "No", then he is just as guilty as the guy who pulled the trigger.

We as a society can no longer afford to accept this "I was just following orders" mentality from those inside Gov't. Gov't will never be accountable to the people unless we start demanding personal responsibility and accountability on the individual level from those in Gov't.
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Old 08-27-2013, 7:40 AM
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Guilt by association. He was there acting in support of illegal orders which were the result of Gov't agents engaging in entrapment.

The simple questions are: Did he refuse the illegal orders? Did he do anything to stop Gov't ordered murder of unarmed civilians? Did he do anything after the fact to bring anyone to justice for their crimes?

If the answers to any of those are "No", then he is just as guilty as the guy who pulled the trigger.
Does the average Joe sniper on the ground KNOW that the Govt is engaging in some sort of entrapment?

You see, I'm not thinking the average FBI grunt knows all the dirt on what's going down.. I can see a sniper, being told a story, and then doing his job.. I'm just not seeing the upper FBI folks having a sit down and laying out thier evil plan to the troops.

So given this I don't see how the FBI shooters would know they were being given "illegal" orders or not. They might have just been told, "we have some baddies, take your positions"

So, I have a hard time condemming everyone that was there.. I guess in your world even the comms guys and minor support personel should be made pariahs because they didn't try to stop the operation? Again, the FBI brass was criminally guilty (IMO), but without more info I can't spread that out to every single human that ANY part of the incident.



Personally, if I were Mr Troy, hiring the guy just wouldn't be worth the hassle.. not really seeing the upside. There must be plenty of qualified bomb-experts and incident investigators out there.
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Old 08-27-2013, 7:47 AM
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Does the average Joe sniper on the ground KNOW that the Govt is engaging in some sort of entrapment?

You see, I'm not thinking the average FBI grunt knows all the dirt on what's going down.. I can see a sniper, being told a story, and then doing his job.. I'm just not seeing the upper FBI folks having a sit down and laying out thier evil plan to the troops.

So given this I don't see how the FBI shooters would know they were being given "illegal" orders or not. They might have just been told, "we have some baddies, take your positions"

So, I have a hard time condemming everyone that was there.. I guess in your world even the comms guys and minor support personel should be made pariahs because they didn't try to stop the operation? Again, the FBI brass was criminally guilty (IMO), but without more info I can't spread that out to every single human that ANY part of the incident.



Personally, if I were Mr Troy, hiring the guy just wouldn't be worth the hassle.. not really seeing the upside. There must be plenty of qualified bomb-experts and incident investigators out there.
So you're saying they didn't know that being given "shoot on sight" orders were illegal? You're saying the guy who pulled the trigger was never taught or trained that shooting an unarmed person who was not presenting an imminent treat to anyone is illegal?

And in my personal opinion.....we must spread the guilt to EVERYONE involved because if we dont what ends up happening is exactly what happened with this incident.....everyone involved points the finger at someone else and everyone walks away clean. If the guy receiving the order knows he will pay a price just like the guy giving the order.....they're gonna pay closer attention to the orders they're given.
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Old 08-27-2013, 7:56 AM
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I've met Steve Troy on multiple occasions, and have spoken with Molly Troy on even more.

I regularly shoot with one of their 'house shooters', a guy named Frank Proctor.

The products that they make are made well, and the company stands behind them.

That they hired a guy who was unfortunate enough to be present at the Ruby Ridge debacle is not nearly enough to turn me away from Troy Industries.

As mentioned by another poster, gunners do seem to have an 'eat their own' mentality, often for the slightest of perceived mis-steps. I think that all should step back, and look at the bigger picture, from time to time.

This in no way advocates for excusing blatant behavior. It is simply a call to examine context, and put all things in proper perspective.

Its kind of like all those 'don't use that ffl' type threads where, after further examination of the facts, its shown that the initial complainer was wrong in the first place.
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Old 08-27-2013, 7:59 AM
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I've met Steve Troy on multiple occasions, and have spoken with Molly Troy on even more.
I regularly shoot with one of their 'house shooters', a guy named Frank Proctor.
The products that they make are made well, and the company stands behind them.
That they hired a guy who was unfortunate enough to be present at the Ruby Ridge debacle is not nearly enough to turn me away from Troy Industries.
As mentioned by another poster, gunners do seem to have an 'eat their own' mentality, often for the slightest of perceived mis-steps. I think that all should step back, and look at the bigger picture, from time to time.
This in no way advocates for excusing blatant behavior. It is simply a call to examine context, and put all things in proper perspective.
Its kind of like all those 'don't use that ffl' type threads where, after further examination of the facts, its shown that the initial complainer was wrong in the first place.
They hired a guy who essentially agreed with and protected Horiuchi. This is the kind of cop other threads complain about, those who support and cover up crimes against civilians.
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Old 08-27-2013, 8:10 AM
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Remember something folks.....an unarmed woman holding an infant child in her arms was MURDERED by Gov't agents......and to date NOT ONE SINGLE person has stood trial for ANYTHING that happened there.

It is amazing to me that people here are so quick to hand out free passes to anyone involved in that incident.

I think that if it was YOUR wife you wouldn't be so quick to be doling out free passes.

So long as no man involved is honroable enough to stand up and take the blame and do the time for the crimes committed, and so long as our Gov't is more concerned with maintaining it's power and covering it's arse, then the responsibility must be spread to and born by all involved, and now by extention, any who choose to employ them and reward them for their choices.
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Old 08-27-2013, 8:21 AM
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Disgusting slime balls. I will definitely stay away from any Troy products.
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  #30  
Old 08-27-2013, 8:26 AM
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fighter4cage fighter4cage is offline
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[QUOTE=frankm;12166534]Sounds like he has Horiuchi's back the whole way. I won't be buying any Troy products. And I'll tell others about this.[/QUOTE


Lon Horiuchi', He had a friend- owner of H-S Precision in Rapid City South Dakota... They put him on staff.
Don't ever buy anything from that crap company. Remember H-S Precision for this.
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  #31  
Old 08-27-2013, 8:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
Remember something folks.....an unarmed woman holding an infant child in her arms was MURDERED by Gov't agents......and to date NOT ONE SINGLE person has stood trial for ANYTHING that happened there.

It is amazing to me that people here are so quick to hand out free passes to anyone involved in that incident.

I think that if it was YOUR wife you wouldn't be so quick to be doling out free passes.

So long as no man involved is honroable enough to stand up and take the blame and do the time for the crimes committed, and so long as our Gov't is more concerned with maintaining it's power and covering it's arse, then the responsibility must be spread to and born by all involved, and now by extention, any who choose to employ them and reward them for their choices.

Well said; I agree entirely. Unfortunately we're at the point where police may execute or murder a person and it's called a "justified shooting" with no further recourse.

If us Calgunners don't stand up against this I don't know who will.
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  #32  
Old 08-27-2013, 8:33 AM
Stockton Stockton is offline
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I couldn't take any instruction from anyone knowing he/she in the moment of truth stood still while cold blooded murder was being committed. He took no accountability as an individual. He is a coward. Troy could've bought a video of Ruby Ridge and showed as what not to do and saved money and loss of business.
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  #33  
Old 08-27-2013, 8:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
Remember something folks.....an unarmed woman holding an infant child in her arms was MURDERED by Gov't agents......and to date NOT ONE SINGLE person has stood trial for ANYTHING that happened there.

It is amazing to me that people here are so quick to hand out free passes to anyone involved in that incident.

I think that if it was YOUR wife you wouldn't be so quick to be doling out free passes.

So long as no man involved is honroable enough to stand up and take the blame and do the time for the crimes committed, and so long as our Gov't is more concerned with maintaining it's power and covering it's arse, then the responsibility must be spread to and born by all involved, and now by extention, any who choose to employ them and reward them for their choices.
+1

These are looking pretty good right about now
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  #34  
Old 08-27-2013, 8:54 AM
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As Kevin Harris made his way through the doorway, Horiuchi placed the cross hairs of his rifle's scope on the edge of the door and fired a second shot. The bullet penetrated the door window, passed through Vicki Weaver's head and struck Kevin Harris in the left arm and chest. The bullet had miraculously missed baby Elisheba. Vicki Weaver fell to her knees, still holding her baby, and cried out in agony for approximately 30 seconds before slumping to the floor and succumbing to her fatal injury.

The psychological warfare became even worse the following day. "Good morning Mrs. Weaver," Fred Lanceley, an FBI negotiator, called out. "We had pancakes this morning. And what did you have for breakfast? Why don't you send your children out for some pancakes, Mrs. Weaver?" Following the statements made by the negotiator, the whole family began sobbing loudly. The phone, which had been placed outside the cabin door, rang continuously every 15 minutes as the negotiator continued yelling through the bull horn, at times stating that if they failed to come out, they were all going to die

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/g...weaver/15.html

From arf.com:
Originally Posted by abandonedship
my personal opinion is that SOMEONE had to know hiring this guy was a terrible PR move, and either they were silenced because of who knows what or they just let it happen thinking no one would notice. Troy asymmetrical and troy industries are on the same location (from my understanding in the ARFCOM thread) so the fact that Mr. Troy "didn't know" about it is a bit of a stretch. If you've ever seen the CSPAN video of Dale, the ruby ridge sniper, claiming he was going to shoot the woman but was just slow on the trigger makes that guy a huge pro-government statist douche bag in my opinion and there are plenty of other crisis management people they could have hired who don't have that red flag on their resume.

Its Mr. Troy's personal word that he's keeping Dale on, so I'm never buying troy products.

I agree F them.
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  #35  
Old 08-27-2013, 9:19 AM
compulsivegunbuyer compulsivegunbuyer is offline
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Apparently he is ok with executing a unarmed woman holding a 10 month old baby, and would have done the same, an innocent woman at that. Acquitted on all charges, except the failure to appear on the bogus charges. The liberals and their thugs would do it to all of us in a heartbeat, and have no trouble sleeping afterward. F Troy, they can kiss my ***.
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  #36  
Old 08-27-2013, 9:30 AM
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I see some emails in their future including one from me.
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  #37  
Old 08-27-2013, 9:34 AM
SuperSet SuperSet is offline
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Would it be ironic and sad that Troy could receive more outrage than Sacramento?
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  #38  
Old 08-27-2013, 9:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swat View Post
I am going to buy some stuff from Troy today. The FBI did the nation a service on Ruby Ridge! One less POS in the world is a good thing!
Weaver's wife was a POS? Um, ok, comrade.
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  #39  
Old 08-27-2013, 9:46 AM
wizzbane wizzbane is offline
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Oh swat so to you a woman holding a baby is the pos you celebrate the murder of..... god I hope that in the future a fascist supporting liberal says the same about you after jbgt murder some one you care about.

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  #40  
Old 08-27-2013, 10:02 AM
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It was an all around bad situation but that still does not give a free pass to try and cover up the situation.
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