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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:36 PM
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Default EU passes tighter gun controls WITH SUPPORT OF HUNTERS

That's ok, do whatever you want....."Real hunters will not be seriously affected" (Scroll to the bottom of the article)

For a continent that was the birthplace of western civilization and all that is good in the world, they sure have devolved a LOT.

EDIT TO ADD: Maybe we DO need to ban the use of lead ammo for hunting....it seems that it is damaging the HUNTERS brains.



http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...EN-EU-Guns.php


European Parliament backs tighter gun controls

The Associated Press
Thursday, November 29, 2007

BRUSSELS, Belgium: Responding to a school massacre in Finland and other deadly shootings, European Union lawmakers on Thursday overwhelmingly backed tighter gun control rules that make buying and possessing firearms more difficult across the 27-nation bloc.

Under the guidelines, updating rules from 1991, only people over 18 not deemed a threat to public safety can buy and keep guns. People under 18 will only be able to get hold of a gun for hunting or target shooting under the guidance of an adult with a valid license.

EU member states will be required to keep computer files with data on each firearm, such as type, model, caliber, serial number and names and addresses of both the supplier and the buyer, including on guns bought through the Internet. The registers must set up by 2014, and data will have to be kept for at least 20 years.

The name of manufacturer, place and year of fabrication and serial number will have to marked on every firearm. Historical collections of arms will be exempt from the new guidelines.

The measures, which still need to be formally approved by EU governments, are expected to come into force by January, the parliament said. All EU member states will then have two years to adopt them.

The parliamentary vote took place less than a month after an 18-year-old student went on a rampage in a school in southern Finland, killing eight people and himself. Although the legislation has been 18 months in the making, parliamentarians said they saw a pressing need to pass the new rules to prevent such massacres in the future.

"A 100-percent risk-free environment can never be created. But we can try to prevent events such as those in Finland or Germany," said Gisela Kallenbach, a German Green deputy charged with steering the legislation through the EU assembly. Germany has seen five tragic school shootings in the past seven years.

British Labour deputy Arlene McCarthy said the assembly sought a 'fast-track' adoption of the rules following the Finnish killings.

The new rules bring the EU into line with a U.N. protocol on firearms and harmonize the different gun control measures across the bloc.

In Finland, for example, 15-year-olds are allowed hunting rifle permits, and there are 1.6 million registered guns in a population of 5.3 million. In Britain, 17-year-olds may buy a shotgun if they have a gun certificate.

"Guns are not something young people should be getting hold of ... Recent dramatic events have shown just how necessary it is to have better control of the purchase and circulation of arms," said EU Commission Vice President Guenter Verheugen, a German.

"The conditions of use of firearms by persons less than 18 years old will be strictly controlled and the purchase of firearms by minors will be forbidden," he said.

Verheugen estimated there were "millions" of illegally-owned weapons in the EU.

"We have a tough job ahead of us trying to get these guns out of the system," he said.

Germany raised the age for owning recreational firearms from 18 to 21 after the massacre in a school in Erfurt in 2002 when a 19-year-old man killed 13 teachers, two former classmates and a policeman, before committing suicide.

Countries that have more stringent gun controls than the new minimum EU-wide standards will be allowed to keep them.

FACE, a Europe-wide association representing 7 million hunters, welcomed the new rules.

"It's an acceptable compromise. Real hunters will not be seriously affected," the organization said.


McCarthy said public auction Web sites such as eBay have been instructed how to conduct Internet firearms sales.

Last edited by DrjonesUSA; 11-29-2007 at 11:42 PM..
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  #2  
Old 11-30-2007, 12:16 AM
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And that's what they're trying here.
...John Kerry and duck hunting, Obama and "right to hunt, etc.

The duck hunters and Thirty Caliber Idiots didn't support the 'AW' folks back when Roberti-Roos slid thru. It came back to bite some of these same folks a decade later when they were busted with their precious M1As with flash hiders - "Oh they ain't bustin' for that."

This is why the NRA is trying to get the gun rights folks to support hunters, and the hunters to be brought into the gunrights fold so we get some unity and recognize that even though one dude's guns aren't the other's cup of tea, the antigunners are going after each one. That's why there was the push to fight the dog tethering bill - while not gun-related directly, it had a great deal of effect on a subset of hunters, and these folks need to be brought into the fold...

Remember, LCAV's model AW law includes pump-action shotguns as AWs. That should get a few 'duck hunters' realizing they're at risk too.
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  #3  
Old 11-30-2007, 12:26 AM
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Because an 18-21 year old conscripted soldier cannot be trusted with a full auto weapon.....

(see sarcasm 101, subtitle B, paragraph 4 of your handy internet guide book)
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  #4  
Old 11-30-2007, 12:53 AM
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Thumbs down

*farts noxious gas in the EU/UN's general direction*
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  #5  
Old 11-30-2007, 3:03 AM
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It doesn't start until 2014 and historical collections of firearms will be exempted. Hmmmm. Think there will be a lot of new gun purchases before 2014?
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  #6  
Old 11-30-2007, 4:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
The duck hunters and Thirty Caliber Idiots didn't support the 'AW' folks back when Roberti-Roos slid thru.
Those hunters and ".30 cal idiots" ARE the NRA.

Go ahead folks, start with the hunter bashing and watch what little support you have now dissapear.

HUNTERS HUNT MORE WITH "AWs" THEN YOU MALL NINJAS SHOOT AT THE RANGE!

Always gotta have someone to blame for your failings as Californians to retain your 2A rights.

Lets talk about the "Hunters as anti AWs" theory.
Lets see, the States where hunting is a more common and accepted sport or lifestyle, tend to be the States with the LEAST firearms restrictions, for example Kentucky, Georgia, Texas, Arizona....
The States where it is more common to bash hunters, to be anti-hunter and for hunting to not be a as common sport or way of life, tend to have the greater restrictions on firearms, like California, New York, Mass...

You want support? Then support hunters, benchrest shooters, competion shooters, cowboy shooters, and so on.
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2007, 5:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanze View Post
*farts noxious gas in the EU/UN's general direction*
You should use a match next time.
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  #8  
Old 11-30-2007, 5:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
Those hunters and ".30 cal idiots" ARE the NRA.

Go ahead folks, start with the hunter bashing and watch what little support you have now dissapear.

HUNTERS HUNT MORE WITH "AWs" THEN YOU MALL NINJAS SHOOT AT THE RANGE!

Always gotta have someone to blame for your failings as Californians to retain your 2A rights.

Lets talk about the "Hunters as anti AWs" theory.
Lets see, the States where hunting is a more common and accepted sport or lifestyle, tend to be the States with the LEAST firearms restrictions, for example Kentucky, Georgia, Texas, Arizona....
The States where it is more common to bash hunters, to be anti-hunter and for hunting to not be a as common sport or way of life, tend to have the greater restrictions on firearms, like California, New York, Mass...

You want support? Then support hunters, benchrest shooters, competion shooters, cowboy shooters, and so on.
I'm a CAS shooter and a lot of them would sell us EBR shooters out as long as they have their guns. Notice the 10 round mag limit was changed after they screamed about it affecting some lever action rifles.
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  #9  
Old 11-30-2007, 6:01 AM
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Did this pop out at anybody else?

Quote:
McCarthy said public auction Web sites such as eBay have been instructed how to conduct Internet firearms sales.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
Those hunters and ".30 cal idiots" ARE the NRA.

Go ahead folks, start with the hunter bashing and watch what little support you have now dissapear.

HUNTERS HUNT MORE WITH "AWs" THEN YOU MALL NINJAS SHOOT AT THE RANGE!

Always gotta have someone to blame for your failings as Californians to retain your 2A rights.

Lets talk about the "Hunters as anti AWs" theory.
Lets see, the States where hunting is a more common and accepted sport or lifestyle, tend to be the States with the LEAST firearms restrictions, for example Kentucky, Georgia, Texas, Arizona....
The States where it is more common to bash hunters, to be anti-hunter and for hunting to not be a as common sport or way of life, tend to have the greater restrictions on firearms, like California, New York, Mass...

You want support? Then support hunters, benchrest shooters, competion shooters, cowboy shooters, and so on.
It's funny that I'd only ever seen one AR15 (and no AKs or variants) before moving to CA... I knew a lot of hunters in Michigan.

The shoe does fit, in a lot of cases. It's not the hunters who own black rifles we need to watch out for, it's the hunters who don't.
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  #10  
Old 11-30-2007, 6:39 AM
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"Guns are not something young people should be getting a hold of "

This coming from a German. Laughable
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  #11  
Old 11-30-2007, 6:47 AM
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First the UN/EU and then after north America has formed the NAU then it will be us.

Ask residents in those countries if they thought 10 years or so before the EU formed if they thought it would have.

If you have any doubts just wait 10-15 years and watch it all develop.

We forget our rights and freedoms over time and as new generations of Americans come of age.

Think about how those that lived in the 1940's would have received NAFTA.

Your rights and freedoms are lost over time not in an instant.
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Old 11-30-2007, 7:20 AM
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The European's only need guns for hunting. They have their masters to protect them.
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Old 11-30-2007, 8:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
Those hunters and ".30 cal idiots" ARE the NRA.

Go ahead folks, start with the hunter bashing and watch what little support you have now dissapear.

HUNTERS HUNT MORE WITH "AWs" THEN YOU MALL NINJAS SHOOT AT THE RANGE!

Always gotta have someone to blame for your failings as Californians to retain your 2A rights.

Lets talk about the "Hunters as anti AWs" theory.
Lets see, the States where hunting is a more common and accepted sport or lifestyle, tend to be the States with the LEAST firearms restrictions, for example Kentucky, Georgia, Texas, Arizona....
The States where it is more common to bash hunters, to be anti-hunter and for hunting to not be a as common sport or way of life, tend to have the greater restrictions on firearms, like California, New York, Mass...

You want support? Then support hunters, benchrest shooters, competion shooters, cowboy shooters, and so on.
I think that getting this heated is counterproductive. Bill said, in a dispassionate way, what many of us see as incontrovertable. Indeed, despite your allegations, I've seen similar statements in (the NRA journal) American Rifleman."

Does this mean that all hunters think this way, or that hunters are our enemy? Certainly not. But one of our poster's signature block says it all. If I can remember, it started something like "They took away machine guns, but I didn't want one so I didn't stand up. Then they came for assault rifles, but I couldn't afford one, so I didn't stand up. . ."

It behooves all of us, whatever our pet interests and ownership, to support each and every encroachment into the rights of all of us dependent upon the 2nd, whether we have a personal interest in that topic or not.
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Last edited by Glock22Fan; 11-30-2007 at 8:09 AM.. Reason: typo
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  #14  
Old 11-30-2007, 8:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Remember, LCAV's model AW law includes pump-action shotguns as AWs. That should get a few 'duck hunters' realizing they're at risk too.
Could you post a link to that?

Thanks!!
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Old 11-30-2007, 8:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
Those hunters and ".30 cal idiots" ARE the NRA.

Go ahead folks, start with the hunter bashing and watch what little support you have now dissapear.

HUNTERS HUNT MORE WITH "AWs" THEN YOU MALL NINJAS SHOOT AT THE RANGE!

Always gotta have someone to blame for your failings as Californians to retain your 2A rights.

Lets talk about the "Hunters as anti AWs" theory.
Lets see, the States where hunting is a more common and accepted sport or lifestyle, tend to be the States with the LEAST firearms restrictions, for example Kentucky, Georgia, Texas, Arizona....
The States where it is more common to bash hunters, to be anti-hunter and for hunting to not be a as common sport or way of life, tend to have the greater restrictions on firearms, like California, New York, Mass...

You want support? Then support hunters, benchrest shooters, competion shooters, cowboy shooters, and so on.

I did not start this as a hunter-bashing thread, nor do I look down upon ANYONE who uses guns for any legitimate purpose; cowboy, hunting, range, defense, etc.

I posted this as a wake up call for everyone that sometimes the enemy is our fellow gun owner.

I *DO* have a severe problem with hunters who think that "nobody needs an assault rifle" or that "handguns are only for killin'" as they support gun laws so long as their precious deer rifles (scoped sniper rifles) and duck guns (street-sweepers) are safe, when in reality, there is no gun that is safe from a ban.
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Old 11-30-2007, 8:31 AM
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The real reality on hunters in CA is that we are a diminishing breed here.

In 1977 there was over 550,000 hunting licenses sold in the state with a population of 22 million residents or about 2.5% of the population. Fast forward to 2007 where there was only 225,000 hunting license issued in CA to a population of over 36 million.....hunters make up only 0.63% of the population now! So the hunters' voice is really declining when you look at the total percentages. A 75% drop in the last 30 yrs.


Edit to add:

Another way to look at it is that all of the "hunters" in CA live in Redding/Redbluff, CA (about the same 225k population) and the rest of CA is made up of non-hunters....who do you think will set the policies on gun ownership? The small town of Redding or the rest of the State?

Last edited by Hunter; 11-30-2007 at 8:44 AM..
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Old 11-30-2007, 8:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
The real reality on hunters in CA is that we are a diminishing breed here.

In 1977 there was over 550,000 hunting licenses sold in the state with a population of 22 million residents or about 2.5% of the population. Fast forward to 2007 where there was only 225,000 hunting license issued in CA to a population of over 36 million.....hunters make up only 0.63% of the population now! So the hunters' voice is really declining when you look at the total percentages. A 75% drop in the last 30 yrs.
There was a time I could use a hunting license as my HSC, and even though I could have used my DD214 I'd get a current HL whenever I was going to buy a pistol. I don't have the time or a place to hunt anymore so I don't keep my license current.
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Old 11-30-2007, 8:50 AM
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The hunting contingent that sold out CA on the assault weapons ban is called the NRA, yet so many still belive they are the saviors of firearms rights. When something substatial comes from them, I may become a member, until then Ill continue to throw them a few bucks every so often but will not join. I will not become a member of an organization whos leadership is on record as being anti "AWs".
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Old 11-30-2007, 8:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
..... That's why there was the push to fight the dog tethering bill - while not gun-related directly, it had a great deal of effect on a subset of hunters, and these folks need to be brought into the fold...

Remember, LCAV's model AW law includes pump-action shotguns as AWs. That should get a few 'duck hunters' realizing they're at risk too.
I agree that anyone that handles a gun, needs to be united as one, especially in CA. But as my post on the # of hunters in this state shows, they only account for 0.6% of the population. The percentage of "duck hunters" is way less than that as there is less than 70,000 "duck hunters" active in the state, out of the 225,000 total hunters.

So yes we all need to be on the same page, but I feel the bigger issue is getting the non-hunter/gun owner to wake up a little more. On average there should be over 8 million guns in this state so there should be millions of "gun owners" that own those guns. This is the real goldmine that needs to accessed.
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Old 11-30-2007, 9:18 AM
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And don't forget their involvement in the 1986 McClure Volkmer FOPA LAW that banned future registration of Machine Guns.

NRA was instrumental in giving that law to the antis. And I doubt that they asked their membership how they felt about it before their lobbyists went to work on it.

I suppose the NRA that Glock22Fan talks about is after they changed their way of thinking and started to look out for the encroachment of our 2nd Amendment rights hmmm ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
The hunting contingent that sold out CA on the assault weapons ban is called the NRA, yet so many still believe they are the saviors of firearms rights. When something substantial comes from them, I may become a member, until then Ill continue to throw them a few bucks every so often but will not join. I will not become a member of an organization whos leadership is on record as being anti "AWs".
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Old 11-30-2007, 9:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
Those hunters and ".30 cal idiots" ARE the NRA.

Go ahead folks, start with the hunter bashing and watch what little support you have now dissapear.
During the passage of initial Roberti-Roos ban, we got a ton of guys saying, "I don't need that to hunt", or "I dunno why you need those black poodle shooters, my Garand (or M1A) is just fine, they ain't gonna ban that."



Quote:
HUNTERS HUNT MORE WITH "AWs" THEN YOU MALL NINJAS SHOOT AT THE RANGE!
Maybe the hunters YOU know. But there is unfortunately a disconnect with a hunters that have several 870s and a Winchester model 70 or two (hey, that's a 'sniper rifle'!) and maybe a 1911 or S&W Model 19.

Most of these such guys are (1) not NRA members and (2) not registered to vote. Something about 'not being on a list' - even though they're subscribed to Sports Afield, and sent in a discount coupon with their name, address and phone# for the discount on Federal 12GA goose loads they bought on a VISA card.

Quote:
Always gotta have someone to blame for your failings as Californians to retain your 2A rights.
The orig CA AW ban passed by 1 vote. If we'd had some more engaged people - "the duck hunters", etc. - who would realize things would eventually affect them and that they were not 'protected species' except at the outset - we wouldn't have had these issues.


Quote:
You want support? Then support hunters, benchrest shooters, competion shooters, cowboy shooters, and so on.
I support anyone legal with a gun, no matter what their legal endeavor is.

But please don't mention cowboy shooters. Calif. SASS idiots - in combination with CRPA - are the guys who brought us the Roster of approved handguns by causing some fragmentation up in Sacto and perceived lack of unity, so fence-sitter legislators thought they had a 'safe' vote that wouldn't upset the gunnies.

And some fair fraction of hunters in CA sold us out during initial CA AW ban proposal because they touted the Brady line, "I don't need that to hunt."

I've helped people get outta jail/get charges dismissed/reduce their legal bills, and join with my brethren gunnies in the Fight.

What have you done, except fill out your Military AW exemption?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CavTrooper
The hunting contingent that sold out CA on the assault weapons ban is called the NRA, yet so many still belive they are the saviors of firearms rights. When something substatial comes from them, I may become a member, until then Ill continue to throw them a few bucks every so often but will not join. I will not become a member of an organization whos leadership is on record as being anti "AWs".
Cav, you are full of pure unmitigated cr*p. I believe you were not even here then, I believe. NRA fought this tooth & nail and SB23. Admittedly, we're in a bit of a rear-guard action given demographics & districting in CA, but we can fight in the courts and things are gradually moving our way in certain aspects.

Please show me one place where NRA supports or supported an AW ban either in CA or nationally. You can't - period. I think you're just too cheap to send in your $30.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SemiAutoSam
And don't forget their involvement in the 1986 McClure Volkmer FOPA LAW that banned future registration of Machine Guns.

NRA was instrumental in giving that law to the antis. And I doubt that they asked their membership how they felt about it before their lobbyists went to work on it.

More Sam black helicopters crap as usual.

FOPA 86 was promoted to protect HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of shooters who crossed state lines in their travels from being harrassed in other non-home states when passing thru. The NFA amendment stuff was thrown in at the last minute before vote, and not by NRA or its friends in congress. It woulda passed that way, or it would not have passed at all: in 1986 we didn't have as much sway in Congress/Senate as we do now.

It's still being tested, many states are not familiar with it, but it lays the groundwork to bring down other laws.

Would you have us NOT have FOPA '86? That way more people can be arrested for felonies and pay $10+K for attorneys fees.
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Last edited by bwiese; 11-30-2007 at 9:43 AM..
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Old 11-30-2007, 9:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
...... But there is unfortunately a disconnect with a hunters that have several 870s and a Winchester model 70 or two .....Most of these such guys are (1) not NRA members and (2) not registered to vote. ......
Bill,
I have respect for you and agree with you on some points, but you really seem to be pulling the above statement out of thin air. How could anyone know this type of statistic?? As a member of the NRA and a hunter in this state, I have NEVER been asked by the NRA if 1) I was a hunter or not; 2) If I voted or not. I also have never been asked by any of the hunting groups either. So where does this come from?
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Old 11-30-2007, 9:50 AM
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I posted this as a wake up call for everyone that sometimes the enemy is our fellow gun owner.

I *DO* have a severe problem with hunters who think that "nobody needs an assault rifle" or that "handguns are only for killin'" as they support gun laws so long as their precious deer rifles (scoped sniper rifles) and duck guns (street-sweepers) are safe, when in reality, there is no gun that is safe from a ban.
And that was the problem here in CA in 1989, and many of these folks only started waking up in 1998-99 when SB23 rolled around.

You shoulda seen how some of those M1A guys were panicking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJonesUSA
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese
Remember, LCAV's model AW law includes pump-action shotguns as AWs. That should get a few 'duck hunters' realizing they're at risk too.
Could you post a link to that?
All the laws LCAV wants: http://www.lcav.org/library/model_laws.asp

I was wrong:
http://www.lcav.org/library/model_la...lt_Weapons.pdf

They wanna treat pump-action *rifles* as AWs. The model law also codifies constructive possession.

But I do indeed recall seeing somewhere else they wanna treat pump shotguns as AWs.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:04 AM
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Bill,
I have respect for you and agree with you on some points, but you really seem to be pulling the above statement out of thin air. How could anyone know this type of statistic?? As a member of the NRA and a hunter in this state, I have NEVER been asked by the NRA if 1) I was a hunter or not; 2) If I voted or not. I also have never been asked by any of the hunting groups either. So where does this come from?
Mike,

A good get-your-hand-around-this number can be garnered by looking at number of CA gun sales & hunting permits. Those stats are likely obtained by their work with NSSF. Voter registrations are public records so these stats can be run together.

NRA continually harps on getting people out to vote & registered to vote. They never announce their membership in any state for strategic reasons, but I'd bet that ~1/4 active hunters/shooters are NRA members.

[Plus we have GOC in CA actively trying to stop people from joining NRA! Their reps have actually trolled people at NRA sign-up booths at gunshows to join GOC instead. I guess Sam needs his salary.]

I myself have met a ton of folks at the range. Registered to vote? Naah. NRA member? Naah: "they ain't doing anything".

What these guys don't realize is that NRA CA has to work behind the scenes without touting themselves - otherwise that baits the antis. Just think about how AB2728 was played...
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:17 AM
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I myself have met a ton of folks at the range. Registered to vote? Naah. NRA member? Naah: "they ain't doing anything".
You don't need to go to the range to meet these guys, a lot of them post here .
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:20 AM
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Mike,

A good get-your-hand-around-this number can be garnered by looking at number of CA gun sales & hunting permits. Those stats are likely obtained by their work with NSSF. ......
But has the NRA/NSSF actually done this type of search? I have never seen anything that reseambles this data and I would really like to see it.

Quote:
....I myself have met a ton of folks at the range. Registered to vote? Naah. NRA member? Naah.........
Now I do agree with your perception at the range. But just because a guy is shooting a non black rifle, doesn't make him a licensed hunter. As I showed already, the number of hunters in this state is actually quite small percentage wise compared to both the population and the gun owners in CA.

Yes, there are a few hunting groups like CWA that are pushing back more in the legislative arena, but in general our best hopes in this state is to round up more gun owners in general to fight these laws.

Take your pick, 1 million, 2 million, 5 million as the number of gun owners in CA, all are vastly higher than the number of hunters. So while we cannot forget about hunters, to continue to only harp on that group is really not going to amount to much in the end number wise. It is the guy at the range that needs to be recuited and even more the folks that don't even go to the range but still own a gun....that is the real challenge.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:29 AM
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But has the NRA/NSSF actually done this type of search?
The NRA has a lotta private stats that drive their efforts.

If I were a betting man in Vegas, I'd like to have the NRA guys' little black book on assembly/Senate districts in CA.

When I spoke to 'em last summer, they'd called the Poochigian/Brown race 4+ months before Election Day, pretty damned close to the actual poll results.


Quote:
Now I do agree with your perception at the range. But just because a guy is shooting a non black rifle, doesn't make him a licensed hunter. As I showed already, the number of hunters in this state is actually quite small percentage wise compared to both the population and the gun owners in CA.
True. But getting more hunters allied and out of the woodwork is a help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
Take your pick, 1 million, 2 million, 5 million as the number of gun owners in CA, all are vastly higher than the number of hunters.
Again, true. However, those include folks with Ruger 10/22 in the garage rafters or a S&W Model 60 in the nightstand. These folks are harder and costlier to reach than the "active gun owners", which'd certainly include hunters.

However, there is no reason NRA could not get 750+K members in CA with continuing drives, if people would just listen.

If NRA nationally had 8-10 million members nationally instead of ~4million, we'd be in the catbird seat. We're doing well nationally but we can't relax.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:49 AM
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The hunting contingent that sold out CA on the assault weapons ban is called the NRA, yet so many still belive they are the saviors of firearms rights. When something substatial comes from them, I may become a member, until then Ill continue to throw them a few bucks every so often but will not join. I will not become a member of an organization whos leadership is on record as being anti "AWs".

Can you please provide evidence to back up your assertion that the NRA is anti-assault rifle?
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:50 AM
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Can you please provide evidence to back up your assertion that the NRA is anti-assault rifle?
He can't.
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:21 AM
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He can't.
I know, but I'd just like to hear him admit it.
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  #31  
Old 11-30-2007, 12:10 PM
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Quick question.. I wasnt really paying attention to gun politics years ago as I was barely out of my teens, but I'm wondering about these ".30 Cal idiots" .. Were the bans that were coming down pretty much a forgone conclusion or was there some actual debate on the issue? Is it possible the .30 Cal Idiots were just trying to salvage some guns from being banned since they knew there was no hope for the "evil" ones? Once again, I wasnt around so I dont know what really happened.. Seems really messed up people would sell each other out like that. Then again, people in general are self-interested so it's understandable.
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Old 11-30-2007, 12:26 PM
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Quick question.. I wasnt really paying attention to gun politics years ago as I was barely out of my teens, but I'm wondering about these ".30 Cal idiots" .. Were the bans that were coming down pretty much a forgone conclusion or was there some actual debate on the issue? Is it possible the .30 Cal Idiots were just trying to salvage some guns from being banned since they knew there was no hope for the "evil" ones? Once again, I wasnt around so I dont know what really happened.. Seems really messed up people would sell each other out like that. Then again, people in general are self-interested so it's understandable.
I find that Californians take the self-interested thing to great extremes, at least where I live. This isn't just about gun owners, but the way gun owners behave here are indicative of the cultural problem.

Other states manage to organize their gun owners into powerful enough political groups that they can get things like shall-issue CCW laws passed. Heck, Minnesota even managed to do it, and they're one of the few states without RKBA protections in their state constitution!

But in California, if it isn't immediately and obviously beneficial to a particular individual, they want nothing to do with it. Of course, I'm speaking mostly about places like the Bay Area. I imagine the LA area is the same way. The rural counties might behave entirely differently, but then you can get a CCW in the rural counties. I think I might be seeing a pattern here ....
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Old 11-30-2007, 12:29 PM
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.... Is it possible the .30 Cal Idiots were just trying to salvage some guns from being banned since they knew there was no hope for the "evil" ones? ....
I think is was more of an issue of not knowing anything about them. In 1989 the internet wasn't really much of a factor in connecting like minded groups together like it does today...basically one had rec.guns and other such "forums". But the use of even those were minimal compared to what we have in today's world. So there was a lot of gun owners that had never even heard of a HK91 or SAR-48, let alone seen one/handled one. So the first time they become aware of an "AW" is when they see them on the 6 o'clock news. Stories like the Purdy Stockton mass shooting using a"AK47" as the media put it. Or worst, after the actual gun ban bill was passed and they see a passing article in the paper!

So if one didn't have an active interests in these type of guns, even though they were a gun owner/hunter/target shooter, most didn't fight back as they fell into the media's trap of these being only good for the military or just didn't take time to understand. Basically this is very similar to Jim Zumbo's mistake with the black rifles. His first response was from a position of ignorance, but when he had taken the time to understand, it was way to late. Same for a lot of gun owners in the late '80/90s and then again in 2000.
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Old 11-30-2007, 1:02 PM
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Those hunters and ".30 cal idiots" ARE the NRA.

Go ahead folks, start with the hunter bashing and watch what little support you have now dissapear.

HUNTERS HUNT MORE WITH "AWs" THEN YOU MALL NINJAS SHOOT AT THE RANGE!
CavTrooper,

I agree with the core of your sentiment; that a wedge between hunters and other firearm enthusiasts is counter productive. United we stand or divided we fall.


That being said you can not deny the fact that "traditional hunters" have proverbially thrown us EBR enthusiasts "under the bus" in order to protect their "traditional" hunting firearms and sport.

This is IRREFUTABLE FACT.


Not all hunters do this. However there is a very large contingent of traditional hunters who did and still do vote only to protect their firearms at the expense of ours.

Again this is irrefutable fact. To deny this is to be incredibly disingenuous.


No one here is bashing "all hunters." Instead we are speaking out against those hunters who are traditionalists AND would gladly remove our firearm rights to preserver theirs.


Case in point: Jim Zumbo.

Quote:
I must be living in a vacuum. The guides on our hunt tell me that the use of AR and AK rifles have a rapidly growing following among hunters, especially prairie dog hunters. I had no clue. Only once in my life have I ever seen anyone using one of these firearms.

I call them "assault" rifles, which may upset some people. Excuse me, maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I see no place for these weapons among our hunting fraternity. I'll go so far as to call them "terrorist" rifles. They tell me that some companies are producing assault rifles that are "tackdrivers."

Sorry, folks, in my humble opinion, these things have no place in hunting. We don't need to be lumped into the group of people who terrorize the world with them, which is an obvious concern. I've always been comfortable with the statement that hunters don't use assault rifles. We've always been proud of our "sporting firearms."

This really has me concerned. As hunters, we don't need the image of walking around the woods carrying one of these weapons. To most of the public, an assault rifle is a terrifying thing. Let's divorce ourselves from them. I say game departments should ban them from the praries [sic] and woods.
(Emphasis added is mine).


Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
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Old 11-30-2007, 5:45 PM
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I find that Californians take the self-interested thing to great extremes, at least where I live.
My friend from Texas commented on that when he visited (Bay Area, esp. the peninsula). He calls it "me first!"
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Old 11-30-2007, 7:01 PM
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CavTrooper and SemiAuto Sam,
What should the NRA do to please your ideals?

If you were at the head descision making table at the NRA, what would be your inputs to become an ideal pro gun organization?

I'm not asking in a sarcastic manner, I'm interested in what you think the NRA 'ought to be doing' inplace of what they 'ought not' be doing.

What changes in the NRA could you support?

Regarding the Minnesota example. Outside of the Twin Cities it is pretty much rural but still a relatively regional mindset. By comparison I think California has several regional mindsets, SoCal, NorCal, Bay Area and Central Valley any one of which could be another stand alone state.

I remember rec.guns and to me it was a good resource though not organized. It was all we had, so it was good.

Back in the ealry 80's the only fellow gun contact we had was with local gun types, hunters, single action, .30 cal M1 types and anyone else we saw at the Long's Drug counter buying a gun or ammo. Now we huddle together at our keyboards.
We are fighting laws passed years ago as well as trying to keep back the onslaught of Sacramentos gun banning habits that got entrenched while we weren't collectively watching.

We are somebody now, a team, gotta make it work.

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  #37  
Old 11-30-2007, 7:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Maybe the hunters YOU know. But there is unfortunately a disconnect with a hunters that have several 870s and a Winchester model 70 or two (hey, that's a 'sniper rifle'!) and maybe a 1911 or S&W Model 19..
The AR is a common hunting rifle in states where there is no AW ban, perhaps the reason that you dont see them used here in CA is because they are banned.

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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
What have you done, except fill out your Military AW exemption?.
Well, it may not be much, or mean anything to you, but before I had even entered the state I had (personally and alone) effected change in the written policy of the Redding and Hollister BLM areas. Prior to my phone calls, the written policy of both of those areas were to not allow legal, registered "AWs", contrary to the state agency policy, which was to allow them to be used on any BLM managed land. I made several phone calls and found the right people to talk to and in about a week, the written policy had been changed to what it is today.
Again, it may not mean anything to you, but as a total outsider to the law and politics of CA, that minor victory was significant to me.
BTW, I will never find myself hunting in that portion of the state, so it had no effect on me either way, the districts where I do hunt, were already in line with the state agency.

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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Cav, you are full of pure unmitigated cr*p. I believe you were not even here then, I believe. NRA fought this tooth & nail and SB23. Admittedly, we're in a bit of a rear-guard action given demographics & districting in CA, but we can fight in the courts and things are gradually moving our way in certain aspects..
I left the state in 2002.
I still remeber walking into Army surplus stores in NorCal that were selling AKs and SKSs by the crateful for dirt cheap prices. My priorities were different then and I was not a shooter, so I could care less, but I was here.

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Please show me one place where NRA supports or supported an AW ban either in CA or nationally. You can't - period. I think you're just too cheap to send in your $30..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSGySNLyACE

Cheap?
I pay my dues every day to defend your Constitutional rights, in the amount of "up to and including my life", pizz on 30 bucks.
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  #38  
Old 11-30-2007, 7:24 PM
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That's one single board member being stupid with his mouth.

That AIN'T THE "NRA". Care to ask Ted Nugent about their stance?

How about Wayne, Ed and Paul?

BTW, Jackson seems to have had his azz handed to him Zumbo-like.
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Old 11-30-2007, 7:25 PM
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Originally Posted by pnkssbtz View Post
CavTrooper,

I agree with the core of your sentiment; that a wedge between hunters and other firearm enthusiasts is counter productive. United we stand or divided we fall.


That being said you can not deny the fact that "traditional hunters" have proverbially thrown us EBR enthusiasts "under the bus" in order to protect their "traditional" hunting firearms and sport.

This is IRREFUTABLE FACT.


Not all hunters do this. However there is a very large contingent of traditional hunters who did and still do vote only to protect their firearms at the expense of ours.

Again this is irrefutable fact. To deny this is to be incredibly disingenuous.


No one here is bashing "all hunters." Instead we are speaking out against those hunters who are traditionalists AND would gladly remove our firearm rights to preserver theirs.


Case in point: Jim Zumbo.

(Emphasis added is mine)




Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
Zumbo stepped on his d--- with that statement and paid dearly for it. Before the ARF.com crowd was on top of it, the fellas on the hunting boards I frequent were already making phone calls DIRECTLY to his sponsors. No need to rally for boycotts and roundabout protest, these guys are the IN crowd and they made thier points know, and Zumbo felt the wrath. Im not saying that the ARF.com crowd had zero effect, I am only saying the they were echo to what other hunters had already said (quieter, but in the right direction).
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Old 11-30-2007, 7:29 PM
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That's one single board member being stupid with his mouth.

That AIN'T THE "NRA". Care to ask Ted Nugent about their stance?

How about Wayne, Ed and Paul?

BTW, Jackson seems to have had his azz handed to him Zumbo-like.
Go back and read my post, the one you quoted, where I said "whos leadership is on record", I did not say the whole of the NRA was on record as being anti-AW.

Questions to you:

What did the NRA do to defend against the original "AW" ban in CA?
What are they doing now to have it repealled?
Did the NRA comprimise away our rights in the original "AW" ban?

Did Jackson have his azz handed to him? Is he still on the board of the NRA? Or was his sorry excuse for an apology the "beating" he took for his remarks? You know the one where he said he was talking about 5 round magazines for fully automatic weapons?

No need to acknowledge the rest of my post.

Last edited by CavTrooper; 11-30-2007 at 7:35 PM..
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