Sturdy Vs. Amsec

[Grakken]

Hi all,

It seems as though my other thread gotta a little long winded. Due to price constraints I *think* I narrowed my search down to an Amsec BF6030. Anyone have this safe? For the price (1200.00 + Delivery) it is hard to pass up. I know there are better safes out there but I dont want to kill my wallet.

Some specs on it:

Body encloses a proprietary DryLight insulation eliminating the use of gypsum board.

2" total wall thickness on all sides.

Two layers of steel consisting of an outer and inner steel liner for dual security protection (I believe it is 10 gauge outer with 16 gauge inner)

1/2" steel plate door combined with 1" DryLight insulation.

10 massive 11/2" thick locking bolts to provide superior door security (there are no bolts on the top or bottom and I'm not sure if one side of the bolts dont move at all)

Mercury class II fire protection of 1275 degrees for 90 minutes. Designed to maintain an interior temperature of less than 350 degrees.

New DryLight insulation is poured between inner and outer steel walls for premier fire protection

RSC Rating.

Weighs 885#

Now how long will it take to hack through the side with a fire ax? Probably not long I dont know but how many theives carry something like that? I'm more worried about a drill attack from the side and than hammering in the bolt to make them all retract. How are Amsec's locks and mechanisms in the door? I cant find any literature on that really.

I am also very interested in Sturdy Safes in Fresno (model# 3224). I recieved a price list and they seem very good for the price. They use thicker gauge steel (8) and (7)gauge is optional (which I really dig). Fireproofing looks good from what I can tell. The lock seems to be good (brand) but how are the mechanisms? Same question with the Amsec, is it reliable from a side drill attack/hammer the bolt? Does it have a good thick relocker? Does it have a Browning type system? What does it have?

Anyone have expeirence with either one of these safes? I'm not really interested in the other safes as I have done enough research to come up with what I have.

So does anyone out there have either one of these safes? Any opinions/comments are welcome

[Matt C]

I have a sturdy safe, I love it, but you can't beat the AMSEC either. I think I would pick whichever I could get cheapest by the cubic foot. That will probably be the sturdy. The Amsec is a "prettier" safe, but I like the all business look of the sturdy.

[Grakken]

Hey Blackwater,

Can you take a pic of the locking mechanisms? Is that active bolt system? Can u hammer in all the bolts by hammering just one of them in? On the website, it looked as though some sfaes came with a white interior? didnt look like Carpet though. What interior # did u pick? Thanks dude

-G

[mike100]

wow..without the fire lining and sheetmetal covers, you can really see in there. nice to have the door shelves, which the lined ones do not.

I took mine off to look at it and have pics at home...it's not finished as nice as blackwaters. You can see sturdy doesn't use a center cam plate in the center. the pivots are inside the edge tube.

if the deal is unlocked, 2 of the locking pins can be pressed in to move the handle open. when it is locked, a drill attack would, I believe, break off and the relocker would fall into place. I was trying to figure out how to break into my own safe and couldn't because all that stuff is behind steel that is not removable. maybe if you layed it on it's side and drilled thru..dunno, not gonna kill my safe trying, but it might be fun to try on a free one. I'd like to talk to terry now that I have had time to think about it, but I gave up so I think most any thief would also... I'd cut a big hole in the side if I had to get in there, the door doesn't need to be THAT good when you are talking .180" thick steel or less.

[Steyr_223]

I have the older AMSEC Cascade 6030 Fire Proof Gun Safe, great safe. No issues or concerns since 2000.

http://www.securitybase.com/Web_stor...ch=Y&ns=Y&dci=

S

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by Grakken

Hey Blackwater,

Can you take a pic of the locking mechanisms? Is that active bolt system? Can u hammer in all the bolts by hammering just one of them in? On the website, it looked as though some sfaes came with a white interior? didnt look like Carpet though. What interior # did u pick? Thanks dude

-G

All that stuff is welded up, so I can't take pics. I just said I want the gray one, and said the dimensions I wanted, and they did the rest. I opted out of the fireproofing since it upped the cost 45%, and he said I could buy it later as an add on. The rest should be directed to Terry at sturdy safe. He has all the answers, I'm just a customer.

[scootergmc]

Originally Posted by Grakken

Hey Blackwater,

Can you take a pic of the locking mechanisms? Is that active bolt system? Can u hammer in all the bolts by hammering just one of them in? On the website, it looked as though some sfaes came with a white interior? didnt look like Carpet though. What interior # did u pick? Thanks dude

-G

Grakken,

I believe I have the same safe as blackwater, only fire lined. Terry at Sturdy Safe is the man. I can't put more emphasis on this. The day I went down to pick up the safe (on a saturday) was an off-business day but he met me there, walked me through the fab area, etc, showed me a cannon safe that took him less than 5 minutes to drill and open, and then proceeded to show me how his safes are superior. Not being the safe technical wizard that he is, I didn't retain alot of the info. But IIRC, the bolt hammer trick does not work on his safes. Give Terry a call. He's full of info.

[Grakken]

What model is that? I would either get the 3224 or the 36" wide version with fireliner.

[mike100]

that looks to be the 3224 shown in the pic link because I have the 3627 (also a 5 ft high model) and it looks wider.

[tlillard23]

they have 7ga body, and 10-7 ga liner... Amsec does have a nice ad campaign though.

[Librarian]

Just for comparison, here's a pic of the door of an AMSEC TL-15:

[Grakken]

Librarian,

That looks nice, real nice but I dont think that will hold any of my long guns...

Well i spoke with Terry at Sturdy. He seems to know his stuff. I really like the Sturdys but no inside delivery. As I have a few stairs to contend with and no real equipment to move it, I dont know how I could get one. I have no exp moving something this large (I hire movers to move my stuff) but If I had to hire movers for this it would get priced out of my budget I would imagine. How hard is to move a 900# safe?

[Satex]

The moving issue is a real issue for pretty much everyone. Most companies will drop ship the safe to your curb or garage. Placing it inside is a different story. If it needs to go upstairs its an additional saga. And then you call local movers it turns out half their movers are convicted felons!
Safes are a headache!

[mprahm]

The guys down at "The Safe Outlet" in Temecula have a guy that delivers into the house. Did a great job for me! Highly recommended.

[mike100]

Mine ended up in the garage because other options became less attractive when I realized how damn heavy a decent sized strongbox is. I don't have concrete floors in the casa either so I bought blinds for the garage windows and positioned it in the spot not visible from the outside.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by Grakken

Librarian,

That looks nice, real nice but I dont think that will hold any of my long guns...

Your guns are more than 5 feet long? That's an AMSEC RF6528, 72" x 35" x 29-1/2" exterior - I just didn't show the whole height.

[mike100]

Originally Posted by Librarian

Just for comparison, here's a pic of the door of an AMSEC TL-15:

I like the idea of greater than 1/4" steel of the TL rated safes, but I think everybody knows that the door on that style of constructions isn't really 3" thick steel. I've seen older amsec gun boxes and they are really like sturdy in the door construction.

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by Grakken

How hard is to move a 900# safe?

Me and one other guy (he's a lightweight) moved my safe(850#) inside alone with no problem. Inside is easy (around the house), one guy can do it with a good refrigerator dolly (rent at home depot for 8$). The stairs are more tricky, we just put down a blanket and pushed it up on it's back. That was pretty easy as well. No need to hire movers, you need one strong guy and one other person for balance/lift support. (the second guy/girl can be a lightweight, but someone smart enough not to get crushed).

[surprised]

Originally Posted by Librarian

here's a pic of the door of an AMSEC TL-15

Originally Posted by Librarian

That's an AMSEC RF6528.

The RF6528 is listed by AMSEC, on their website, as being TL-30 rated. But note that the TL-30 rating is for the door only. When I called them a few weeks ago to inquire, they refused to tell me the sheet metal thickness of the body. The body walls are 3.5" thick, but I was still interested in knowing the thickness of the steel plate(s), not including the insulation.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by surprised

The RF6528 is listed by AMSEC, on their website, as being TL-30 rated. But note that the TL-30 rating is for the door only. When I called them a few weeks ago to inquire, they refused to tell me the sheet metal thickness of the body. The body walls are 3.5" thick, but I was still interested in knowing the thickness of the steel plate(s), not including the insulation.

Used to be both TL-15 and TL-30, when I bought mine; something like 400 pounds different mass, but the exterior dimensions are the same. To get TL-30 rating on all 6 sides, one must buy a TL-30 X 6.

Liner is not removable (at least, not by me!), so I can't even guess how thick the sidewalls are past the insulation.

Let's see, some back of the calculator guesses...

The thing weighs 3300 lb. empty. Assume for discussion that's all steel. I know it's not.

Roughly speaking, the door is 1/5 area, top and bottom are 1/5, left right and back are each 1/5. The door actually is more of the material.

Surface area of one side is 2520 square inches.

Steel is 490 lb/cu ft., 1728 cubic inches. They might use a different steel than that density refers to, but this number is OK for a guess.

1/5 of 3300 is 660 lb. If that were all steel, that would be 1.34 cubic feet.

1.34 * 1728 is 2315 cubic inches of steel per side.

2315 cubic in / 2520 sq in is 0.918 in, thickness in this case.

So, the maximum steel thickness looks like about 9/10 of an inch. We know the distribution is not even - more in the door - and we know the fire liner weighs something.

Suppose we say the fire liner is 1000 lb of the mass, again evenly distributed. That would be 1622 cubic inches of steel per side, 0.64 inches thick.

I think 'half an inch' is a respectable ballpark figure for the sides, but I really don't know. I suggest it's a reasonable guess, since various sites say they use 1/2 inch body steel on the sides of TL-30 rated safes; 1 example mgm, a general discussion here says

TL-15
Safes given a U.L. TL-15 rating have all passed standardized tests defined in UL Standard 687 using the same tools and usually the same group of testing engineers. I have personally worked with the same 5 people for 15 years. The label requires that the safe be constructed of 1-inch solid steel or equivalent. The label means that the safe has been tested for a NET working time of 15 minutes using "…common hand tools, drills, punches hammers, and pressure applying devices." Net working time means simply "when the tool comes off the safe the clock stops". There are over fifty different types of attacks that can be used to gain entrance into the safe. Usually they will try only 2 or 3 based on what they know about the product, and they know a l

(Interesting account of UL certification test here.)

[mike100]

I'd probably buy a TL safe next time... you know when the larger safes have feet or wheels, that you need a forklift to lift it up because a few guys aren't going to tilt it into the back of a truck.

maybe there will never be a next time...kind of reminds me of mechanic rollaway boxes. some guys like the big display which requires flat bed tow truck to move and others prefer to have to modest or small boxes so they can empty them out some and pickup truck haul them home. guess it depends on how much a guy job shops.

[Satex]

If you are going for a TL rated safe because of the weight then you should reconsider. A non TL safe that is bolted to the floor would prevent a pickup truck getaway just as effectively.
One significant drawback on TL safes is that non that I know of come with fireproofing. So you are purchasing a very good oven (metal mass) that is sure to cook everything until its well done.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by Satex

One significant drawback on TL safes is that non that I know of come with fireproofing. So you are purchasing a very good oven (metal mass) that is sure to cook everything until its well done.

Fire Protection

* Fire rated at 1550ºF for a period of 2 hours. Designed to maintain an interior temperature of less than 350°F.
* Massive 31/2" thick body encloses a high security fire resistant material to protect against intense fires.

Amsec Sierra RF6528 TL-30

[socalsteve]

When I was researching gun safes the 2 best buys for the money IMO were the Sturdy and Amsec models.

Similar but different, I had a friend who had the Sturdy - after he died it took 2 locksmiths 6 hours to drill the thing open. Sturdy is a smaller company than Amsec so it is not widely known how to break into them. They are well made and should resist the bolt attack you mention.

I think the Sturdy is a bit more expensive than the Amsec but it may be they give you more too. I won't get into the differences.

If I was going to break into either one I would cut a big square into the back or side - peeling off the outside sheet metal then I would pound out the cement mix (amsec) or tear out the fire blanket (sturdy) and then cut the inner liner and pull everythig out from there.

It would probably be faster to just take the entire safe away and open it somewhere else where I could make noise and take my time.

BTW I ended up buying a used safe of a diff. manufacturer.

[Grakken]

For all your replies so far