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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:39 PM
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Default AB-962 Doesn't actually ban internet/mail order ammunition purchases



Jason Davis is a rock star.

Today we filed our opposition to the motion to dismiss (alternate link) in OOIDA v. Lindley.

In it, we release the bombshell that Mr. Davis found as we looked very closely at the law and it's effect on interstate shippers.

DeLeon, the author, thought this bill stops California residents from ordering and having handgun ammunition delivered from e.g. Midway USA. However, DeLeon didn't actually write that law.

From the opposition:
Quote:
As referenced above, the California DOJ, by and through the Bureau of Firearms, has inaccurately opined that this provision prohibits “non-face-to-face transfers, such as internet transactions and mail order deliveries.” (Ex. 1.) The Challenged Provision actually permits mail order and internet transactions to consumers – provided that the carriers, via their drivers, obtain “bona fide evidence of identity” from the purchaser or other transferee. This interpretation is supported by the legislative history:
Quote:
The author’s office has informed the Committee staff that the author’s intent was to allow Internet sales of ammunition to be conducted only through a licensed dealer. That is, if a consumer wanted to buy certain types of ammunition available only on the Internet, this transaction could take place by having the ammunition shipped to a licensed ammunition dealer who could then sell the ammunition to the consumer. However, the current language of the bill contains no requirement that the “deliverer” only deliver ammunition to a licensed dealer, only that the “deliverer,” presumably a common carrier like Federal Express or UPS, check the purchaser or transferee’s identification.”
S. Comm. Pub. Safety, B. Analysis on Assem. B. 962 as Amended June 22, 2009, 2009-2010 Reg. Sess., at F (Cal. 2009) (emphasis added). Thus, at a minimum, the Challenged Provision mandates that carriers, via their drivers, obtain “bona fide evidence of identity” prior to delivering “handgun ammunition.”
The law is still preempted by the FAAAA, but it doesn't actually stop any transfer of ammunition into California. If for some very unlikely reason we don't win one of the cases against AB-962, we'll do the education necessary to make sure the major online/mail order ammunition sellers realize they can keep selling into California. Worst case, we'll hear from CA DOJ BoF on the record about their thoughts on this issue in their reply brief...

I wonder if the CA retailers start to ask questions about whether they get what they pay for in the Bootleggers and Baptists category...


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Last edited by hoffmang; 11-14-2010 at 12:29 PM.. Reason: spelling error in title
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  #2  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:42 PM
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Thanks for the heads up Gene !
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  #3  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:43 PM
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Gene
Linky no worky.
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Old 11-04-2010, 4:44 PM
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Excellent reading of the "small prints" -
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Old 11-04-2010, 4:44 PM
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Once again, great work.
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  #6  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:45 PM
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DeLeon has egg on his face after this one.
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  #7  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:45 PM
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Good job guys.
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  #8  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:47 PM
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Wow...again great work CGF Team!
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Old 11-04-2010, 4:47 PM
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I thought it was common knowledge that proof of ID is all that is required and FedEx could do that if they had such a service. I thought the only impediment to this is that the carriers don't offer such ID services.
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Old 11-04-2010, 4:47 PM
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Once again it goes to show that unless these knuckleheads in the legislature write an absolutely airtight bill (one that doesn't happen to be unconstitutional or have some other issue) , our side can and will legally eviscerate these abominations.
Who is responsible for drafting the actual language of these things anyway?
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  #11  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:48 PM
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Let us hope the court sees it that way.
In the meantime it must feel great to figuratively poke a stick into Mr. De Leon's eye.

Keep up the pressure.
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Old 11-04-2010, 4:48 PM
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I have a bunch of fring kids right now and I'm reading on my phone so I may well have missed something.
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  #13  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:50 PM
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WOOO HOOOO!!!!!! Go Jason!!
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  #14  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:52 PM
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Anyone in contact with fed ex or ups higher up s
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  #15  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:53 PM
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Will fix link in a sec. RECAP can be touchy.

-Gene
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  #16  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:54 PM
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I can't help but wonder how many times Mr. Davis read that bill, before the light bulb went on...

We all know what we thought it said, but apparently, that specific language isn't there...





Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post


Jason Davis is a rock star.

Today we filed our opposition to the motion to dismiss in OOIDA v. Lindley.

In it, we release the bombshell that Mr. Davis found as we looked very closely at the law and it's effect on interstate shippers.

DeLeon, the author, thought this bill stops California residents from ordering and having handgun ammunition delivered from e.g. Midway USA. However, DeLeon didn't actually write that law.

From the opposition:


The law is still preempted by the FAAAA, but it doesn't actually stop any transfer of ammunition into California. If for some very unlikely reason we don't win one of the cases against AB-962, we'll do the education necessary to make sure the major online/mail order ammunition sellers realize they can keep selling into California. Worst case, we'll hear from CA DOJ BoF on the record about their thoughts on this issue in their reply brief...

I wonder if the CA retailers start to ask questions about whether they get what they pay for in the Bootleggers and Baptists category...

-Gene
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  #17  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:54 PM
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the bad part is that it has already confused sellers like pricier than dirt I mean cheaper than dirt
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  #18  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:56 PM
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sooooooooooooooooooooo..
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  #19  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:57 PM
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Great work, guys!
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  #20  
Old 11-04-2010, 4:59 PM
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Damn, I'm practically kicking myself for not re-doubling my efforts to contribute funds to CGF. This thread is another kick to my rear.
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  #21  
Old 11-04-2010, 5:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowardW56 View Post
I can't help but wonder how many times Mr. Davis read that bill, before the light bulb went on...
Um, Jason's pretty fast.

Don't assume we just discovered this now.
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  #22  
Old 11-04-2010, 5:02 PM
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Wait. You mean I got my FFL03 for nothing?

Just kidding. Awesome news.
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  #23  
Old 11-04-2010, 5:02 PM
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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
Wait. You mean I got my FFL03 for nothing?

Just kidding. Awesome news.
^Sig worthy.
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Old 11-04-2010, 5:02 PM
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The Force is strong with Mr. Davis.
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Old 11-04-2010, 5:06 PM
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If memory serves me correctly, I asked about this exact thing when this first came about. I asked if we submit our CDL to the ammo retailers and then the UPS driver has us sign and verify that we are who we say were would it be legal. I will try and find that post. This is good news. But let's hope we can simply get it repealed all togther.
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Old 11-04-2010, 5:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris View Post
DeLeon has egg on his face after this one.
I would prefer a warm, steaming pile of cr*p.
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Old 11-04-2010, 5:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowardW56 View Post
I can't help but wonder how many times Mr. Davis read that bill, before the light bulb went on...

We all know what we thought it said, but apparently, that specific language isn't there...
I'm man enough to admit it. I fought him on this and was wrong. He thought that was the case days after it passed but he listened to me . As we were prepping this set of filings (more to come) he came back and he's right!

I love that DeLeon (and staff) were too dumb to get this right. Recall that much of the reason they screwed this up was NRA and CRPA lobbying that forced them to amend the heck out of this bill in the final 4 hours of session. That sort of pressure causes these sorts of serious errors...

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Old 11-04-2010, 5:08 PM
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Man. You guys are scary. I am glad we're on the same side.
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Old 11-04-2010, 5:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
I thought it was common knowledge that proof of ID is all that is required and FedEx could do that if they had such a service. I thought the only impediment to this is that the carriers don't offer such ID services.

I mail order wine all the time and UPS will ask for ID. For wine, proof of age is required by law and in order to do that, ID would have to shown. ??
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Old 11-04-2010, 5:10 PM
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My only question...does UPS have the protocols in place for this? I've had "signature required" stuff before, but never "ID verification" required. Furthermore are they going to be exposing themselves to any liability here if they're the ones that have to verify our ID?

ETA: my bad, dantodd asked it and taperxz answered it. I guess they just treat it like booze. However, I do wonder about the liability issue.

Last edited by CharAznable; 11-04-2010 at 5:13 PM..
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Old 11-04-2010, 5:13 PM
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If I smoked I would have a lighter held over my head right now.

Rock on Jason!
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Old 11-04-2010, 5:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a1c View Post
Wait. You mean I got my FFL03 for nothing?

Just kidding. Awesome news.
No, mosins are still cheap and awesome.

On the thread topic, I can't believe Deleon missed that. Another great job by CGF.
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Old 11-04-2010, 5:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
the current language of the bill contains no requirement that the “deliverer” only deliver ammunition to a licensed dealer, only that the “deliverer,” presumably a common carrier like Federal Express or UPS, check the purchaser or transferee’s identification.”

why did I think this had been common knowledge? I always just assumed that the impact would be that the cariers would not want to deal with this and just refuse to ship ammo or add an "identification surcharge"
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Old 11-04-2010, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Um, Jason's pretty fast.

Don't assume we just discovered this now.
That wasn't intended as a shot at anyone...

Speaking for myself, I have re-read documents and noticed things on the second or third reading that I didn't see during my initial reading...
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Old 11-04-2010, 5:17 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post


Jason Davis is a rock star.
Abso-****ing-lutely.

Quote:
I wonder if the CA retailers start to ask questions about whether they get what they pay for in the Bootleggers and Baptists category...

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Old 11-04-2010, 5:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowardW56 View Post
That wasn't intended as a shot at anyone...

Speaking for myself, I have re-read documents and noticed things on the second or third reading that I didn't see during my initial reading...
Now you know why in late 2005 I spent weeks and weeks reading AW laws and regulations and DOJ letters - over & over again.
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Old 11-04-2010, 5:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharAznable View Post
My only question...does UPS have the protocols in place for this?
For alcohol they do because there are federal regulations requiring them to do that. For this, they have a service that would "work" but the don't have the process and can't be constitutionally required to create one by the states.

-Gene
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  #38  
Old 11-04-2010, 5:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 97F1504RAD View Post
If memory serves me correctly, I asked about this exact thing when this first came about. I asked if we submit our CDL to the ammo retailers and then the UPS driver has us sign and verify that we are who we say were would it be legal. I will try and find that post. This is good news. But let's hope we can simply get it repealed all togther.
I found it.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...&postcount=126
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Old 11-04-2010, 5:20 PM
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Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
why did I think this had been common knowledge? I always just assumed that the impact would be that the cariers would not want to deal with this and just refuse to ship ammo or add an "identification surcharge"
FedEx and UPS already have an identification surcharge, it's an option you can select when shipping. Like someone above mentioned, it's used for things like shipping alcohol, and probably tobacco as well.
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  #40  
Old 11-04-2010, 5:20 PM
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wash wash is offline
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If this is our "bullet button", that should kill off a large portion of retail ammo sales because most gun owners would rather show ID than show ID and get fingerprinted.

I like it.
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Originally Posted by oaklander
Dear Kevin,

You suck!!! Your are wrong!!! Stop it!!!
Proud CGF and CGN donor. SAF life member. Former CRPA member. Gpal beta tester (it didn't work). NRA member.
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