ADE: American Defense Enterprises?

[GrimLock]

Has anybody taken any of their courses? I'm thinking about taking a shotgun course offered by them.
http://www.laxrange.com/Tactical-Classes.htm

I found a thread on here from 2007 but it wasn't really informative.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/n...newthread&f=19

[Carlosa]

they come up on a thread a few days ago..
this was what i posted..

"I took a few pistol classes with ADE.
they were allot of fun but i have to admit that it was a bit nerve recking at times.
most memorable was walking into a room full of folks pulling guns out of holsters and loading magazine with out any kind of order or supervision at the beginning of the class.
Non of the instructors from ADE have any real life experience so the class is more of a fun ride that an "actual learn to shoot or defend your self" kind of class. Bill the main instructor, I've been told is actually an IT engineer with no Military or LEO experience.
he does demo allot of spin moves, and point shooting which are more show than practical, but once again this is more of a fun class than anything else. all the targets the student shoot at are shot to hell by the instructor prior to student shooting so there's not much of an enfasis on learning to shoot accurately. as far as safety out on the lane, for "combat handgun one" class there was allot of instructors overseeing the students. there was no drills where you had to shoot behind other students or anything like that.
i know they do teach carbine classes and run a shoot house. maybe they have different approach for the sessions.
anyway way bill and his guys do demo allot of very silly ballerina moves, as well as shooting from the hip and some other stuff that is bit of nonsense. but then i again the classes i took were about 150 bucks and took up about 4 hours of a Saturday morning. so I guess you get what yo pay for

Oh yeah the one thing about Bill, is that he likes to embellish the truth about his business a bit. he'll brag about training navy seals, special forces and playboy bunnies.
he also swears that 4 hours with him will make you a better shooter than a special forces operator.


by the way I'm not complaining. i had allot of fun at the classes, but honestly that's all they were fun "

if you want to check out the full thread..
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=242976

[BigDamnJim]

These guys epitomize all that is wrong with some of these training groups. They train people to stroke the egos of the instructors. They go between showing off their "cool" moves and pretending they are drill sergeants. After taking two of their classes and observing the patently unsafe teaching/training methods, I can say, that I would risk being "ignorant" before taking another of their classes. If you would like details, let me know, but I will say publicly that it was, by far, the most unprofessional firearms training team I have ever encountered.

[HCz]

Above two posters pretty much said it. There are far better trainers in LA area other than them. In the past, one of the instructors of ADE had video of them clearing a shoothouse in Burro canyon(video is no longer there). It really didn't give me any confidence in them.

My suggestion for training schools are ITTS at Angeles, or FTA in Corona/Norco

[ZombieTactics]

This appears to be their "sizzle reel". You can see some things here which are ... errrrrrrr ... just watch the video:

[sara]

I have taken many firearms training sessions from American Defense Enterprises. You guys must be all wimps! ADE is amazing. Bill Beasley is a former Special Forces Operator. He is the REAL DEAL. How could you miss that? And, how can anyone say that moving and shooting is not necessary. Since when does a lethal threat come straight from in front of you, with only one opponent? That is wishful thinking. I want to be able to shoot from all angles AND at all ranges (close contact, intermediate contact, and long range), against single and multiple opponents. That's the training I get from ADE, SERIOUS training. But, then I'm a girl. So, I'm not scared of real firearms training. Oh, and I was probably one of those people "gearing up" in the classroom. After you have taken a few classes with ADE, you can put your own gear on. I'm not afraid of that either! Wow, no wonder it's so hard to meet a real man in California!

[sara]

I have taken many firearms training sessions from American Defense Enterprises. You guys must be all wimps! ADE is amazing. Bill Beasley is a former Special Forces Operator. He is the REAL DEAL. How could you miss that? And, how can anyone say that moving and shooting is not necessary. Since when does a lethal threat come straight from in front of you, with only one opponent? That is wishful thinking. I want to be able to shoot from all angles AND at all ranges (close contact, intermediate contact, and long range), against single and multiple opponents. That's the training I get from ADE, SERIOUS training. But, then I'm a girl. So, I'm not scared of real firearms training. Oh, and I was probably one of those people "gearing up" in the classroom. After you have taken a few classes with ADE, you can put your own gear on. I'm not afraid of that either! Wow, no wonder it's so hard to meet a real man in California!

[Carlosa]

Deleted

[biochembruin]

Not very professional. I've seen them do some very unsafe things, and some of their tactics look like they picked them up from the movies. I've never heard anyone say anything really good about them, except maybe our friend "sara" above.

I cringed when I watched the video, especially when Beasley points at the female student in front of the WHOLE CLASS and asks if she's the one being stocked. Total lack of decorum and confidentiality.

[ZombieTactics]

A couple of their instructors:

Reported to be heading up ADEs "Cyber Security Division":
LINK TO STORY



Another instructor, whose qualifications seem to be being kinda hot, a jazz musician and having trained a teensy bit at ADE herself ... certainly the background of someone qualified to be a tactical firearms instructor:

[biochembruin]

I knew something was up when I saw the ADE target on the wall of Spencer's living room on this video at 1:15.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXDMM0Tq9VQ

He also says, "I've been muzzled 5 times," at 5:10. Doesn't sound like he had a safe training experience if he's being muzzled.

[USMC 82-86]

Saw some scary things in the video. One that really sticks out in my mind is when the three instructors are shooting at close contact targets. I have never been trained to go to the ground as I saw the instructor do in the video. With the three facing the target and one at the point position you are to first go to a knee and then roll to your side only if necessary. You don't simply fall into that position unless you want to be shot in the back of the head. The other clip of video that I found disturbing was when he was talking about the speed of the instructors while shooting. He was clearly in their line of fire as they made the transition from front to rear not a smart position to be in when live fire is being used. I saw a few times where they flagged each other and themselves. The primary instructor may have been SF. I think that is what I read but I have not worked with any operators that have made the number of errors I saw on the video and I didn't even disect the whole video. I would assume he was their primary instructor and trained the professionals as the video described them. This is why I said his errors. One last note the room entry was fairly sloppy. I can see where someone might be impressed on the initial veiwing but only if you don't what you are looking for in their teaching. I can tell you any professional stresses safety, safety, safety and attention to detail.

[H2H]

I did 3 classes with them. While they were "fun" I agree on the safety thing. Instructors were safe and students too but on our 1st class, I started clearing rooms in the shoot house with unknown students ! we did have fun at the end but you gotta put a lot of trust in people you don't know.

Since then I have been taking ITTS classes, it might be slower pace but it is much safer

[HighLander51]

Uh, yea, those guys are like 'really fast'? not, It's just a matter of time before one of them shoots the other. Like Bill, with his finger on the trigger like Zombie posted.

sara, double post? keep your finger off the trigger.......


Carlosa, well done, you had a big cup of shut the phuk up.

Yea, lets take 4 newbies and put them in front of each other with hot guns, perfect. That is dangerous enough with experienced cops.

[HighLander51]

Try these guys instead. Former Marines, one active duty cop and one retired. You need to check the bios of any training instructors to know where they have been and what they have done.

http://www.dynamictrainingconcepts.com/

[Bunduki]

I am a first time poster who, like Sara, has taken classes with ADE and been very pleased with them.

ZombieTactic, your post above really struck a nerve with me, so much that it caused me to register so I could respond. Why would you choose to put down Aysha the way you did? Have you ever taken a class from her? If not, then how can you judge her qualifications?

Her accuracy, knowledge base, skill set, safety awareness, and proficiency on the range should speak for itself. It does not matter to me that she is also a jazz singer, and as you put it, "kinda hot." Why even go there about her looks? It reeks of sexism and maybe some kind of weird resentment on your part, which has nothing to do with her firearms qualifications or lack thereof.

I took a basic handgun class with her and could not have been more impressed with her her professionalism, her accuracy and her patient and encouraging demeanor as an instructor. Contrary to popular opinion, not everyone can teach. I would rather have a professional instructor, with no military experience, who is ALSO a great teacher, than a professional instructor, with military experience, who can't teach worth a hoot.

Keep in mind that basic firearms classes are supposed to be for people with little to no experience with guns. This was not the case with me, but it was for my friend. Aysha's instruction not only improved my own accuracy and confidence immensely, but it managed to change the opinion of my formerly gun-phobic friend. I cannot recommend her class enough for first-timers and those wishing to brush up on their skills and improve their accuracy.

As to the reality 'star,' whose video you also posted - I have been taking occasional classes with them for some time now and I have never seen this guy as one of the instructors. That being the case, I obviously can't judge his firearms proficiency or ability to teach, but based on the clips you've posted he comes off as an ignorant, pompous fool. I am surprised that ADE allowed themselves to be affiliated with him, but perhaps they knew as little of him as I do? In any case, I don't think it's accurate to judge them based on this one weirdo. Every instructor I have worked with there has been exceptionally knowledgeable, encouraging, proficient, and most of all, created a safe environment.

/my 2 cents.

[The Virus]

Originally Posted by Carlosa

they come up on a thread a few days ago..
this was what i posted..

"I took a few pistol classes with ADE.
they were allot of fun but i have to admit that it was a bit nerve recking at times.
most memorable was walking into a room full of folks pulling guns out of holsters and loading magazine with out any kind of order or supervision at the beginning of the class.
Non of the instructors from ADE have any real life experience so the class is more of a fun ride that an "actual learn to shoot or defend your self" kind of class. Bill the main instructor, I've been told is actually an IT engineer with no Military or LEO experience.
he does demo allot of spin moves, and point shooting which are more show than practical, but once again this is more of a fun class than anything else. all the targets the student shoot at are shot to hell by the instructor prior to student shooting so there's not much of an enfasis on learning to shoot accurately. as far as safety out on the lane, for "combat handgun one" class there was allot of instructors overseeing the students. there was no drills where you had to shoot behind other students or anything like that.
i know they do teach carbine classes and run a shoot house. maybe they have different approach for the sessions.
anyway way bill and his guys do demo allot of very silly ballerina moves, as well as shooting from the hip and some other stuff that is bit of nonsense. but then i again the classes i took were about 150 bucks and took up about 4 hours of a Saturday morning. so I guess you get what yo pay for

Oh yeah the one thing about Bill, is that he likes to embellish the truth about his business a bit. he'll brag about training navy seals, special forces and playboy bunnies.
he also swears that 4 hours with him will make you a better shooter than a special forces operator.


by the way I'm not complaining. i had allot of fun at the classes, but honestly that's all they were fun "

if you want to check out the full thread..
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=242976

Thanks for the review, sounds like something I'll be avoiding.

[Stan08]

http://www.stcrispian.com

[ZombieTactics]

Originally Posted by Bunduki

I am a first time poster who, like Sara, has taken classes with ADE and been very pleased with them. ...

Fabulous! Since you are new here and we don't know anything else about you, how about you tell us all a little more about yourself and what you bring to the discussion. Where else have you trained, for instance? Anything else that would help me know who I am talking to? I want to be certain that I address your concerns in their proper context.

[batstrider]

Hmm, seems to be a trend with negative threads about training companies. One negative opinion and, miraculously, you have "satisfied students" miraculously coming to CalGuns for the first time and pledging their undying reliance and approval of the school's curriculum. Same thing happened with my Greg Block AAR thread back in January... huh.

I saw that dude's drop shot and the little ballerina moves and I had already made up my mind. Video's great for laughs though, and I'll be sure to pass it on to my friends so they can get a kick out of it, too.

[AM9000]

I just attended one of their classes at Burro. Didn't feel it was well organized. The instructors do have some good information to impart on handgun fundamentals. Beyond that I would say the curriculum is very improvised and it shows.

I agree with the opinions of the quote in post #2 in regards to safety. Bill (the main guy) was firing and having students fire as other students were repairing targets if not inches, than no more than 1 foot away. Yelling at students about muzzle discipline and then teaching drills that require every man to sweep the man next to him as he spins in reverse to engage a target behind them. I understand that the draw is meant to be in a way that dose not sweep unnecessarily, but almost every man was pointing his loaded Glock at the back of the man next to him every time this drill was preformed. Holding drills directly on the other side of a berm that rifles are shooting at. No one was hurt, but it wasn't intelligently designed with safety in mind, that's all I am saying.

I will say again, there is good handgun target shooting fundamentals instruction, but I think I would stick to LAX where it is a bit more controlled. Or maybe check out ITTS.

[Bunduki]

Originally Posted by ZombieTactics

Fabulous! Since you are new here and we don't know anything else about you, how about you tell us all a little more about yourself and what you bring to the discussion. Where else have you trained, for instance? Anything else that would help me know who I am talking to? I want to be certain that I address your concerns in their proper context.

Ha. Sorry, no. I don't leave my personal information all over the internet and I'm certainly not sharing it with you. I already told you what brought me to this discussion; it was specifically your post. I found the thread by searching for more info on ADE (believe it or not this is currently one of the top links that comes up) but it was your post that caused me to respond. I said what I wanted to say to you about it. "Address my concerns," LOL! I'm so sure you care to do so. About as much as I care if you do.

As for those who posted negative opinions and actually took a class, I didn't comment on those. That's their opinion on it and how can I argue with that? Just wanted to offer mine as well, as I happen to have had positive experience with them.

[The Virus]

I would have been in my truck driving away at the first sign of that kinda sh#t!

Originally Posted by AM9000

I just attended one of their classes at Burro. Didn't feel it was well organized. The instructors do have some good information to impart on handgun fundamentals. Beyond that I would say the curriculum is very improvised and it shows.

I agree with the opinions of the quote in post #2 in regards to safety. Bill (the main guy) was firing and having students fire as other students were repairing targets if not inches, than no more than 1 foot away. Yelling at students about muzzle discipline and then teaching drills that require every man to sweep the man next to him as he spins in reverse to engage a target behind them. I understand that the draw is meant to be in a way that dose not sweep unnecessarily, but almost every man was pointing his loaded Glock at the back of the man next to him every time this drill was preformed. Holding drills directly on the other side of a berm that rifles are shooting at. No one was hurt, but it wasn't intelligently designed with safety in mind, that's all I am saying.

I will say again, there is good handgun target shooting fundamentals instruction, but I think I would stick to LAX where it is a bit more controlled. Or maybe check out ITTS.

[Nowwhat]

Well Hell...this thread is a mess....

I train with ADE 6-8 times a month and enjoy every second of it. The student to instructor ratio is exceptional and I get a chance to shoot 400-500 rounds during the 2 hour weekday classes and a little more than 600 during the weekend classes.

Over the last several months Bill and his team have given me a tremendous amount of attention and instruction. Scores and times don't lie. Speed, accuracy and consistency are all trending in the right direction for me.

The classes are safe...SAFE...I am a business man and a husband...I am not going to put myself in a situation where the firearm training does not put safety first. I have seen Bill send students (and their money) walking at the first hint of them not paying attention to the safety of everyone on the line.

In the end, I would recommend that anyone who can't consistently draw and:

put one in the headbox (3" x 5") at 15 feet in under 1.5 sec
execute a FTS at 15' in under 1.8 sec
or place one in the heart at 3 feet in under .6 sec

to go for 1 hour and then contribute to this thread....

Just a thought...if you go I will be there Saturday...

[ZombieTactics]

Perhaps those who have attended classes with ADE can clear up a few things of concern:

• ADE claims on their FaceBook page to be "#1 According to Homeland Security". Their website says "The Department of Homeland Security rated us the number one trainers in the world!" Can anyone validate this claim? I've spoken to several well-known instructors who are of the opinion that this is complete BS, and DHS does not "rate" civilian firearms training facilities. (UPDATE: I took the time to contact DHS media affairs myself ... they issue no such ratings to any firearms training facilities. So, it appears to be a total LIE on the part of ADE.)
• Can someone explain the utility of the "360 spinning" maneuvers? I've brought this up with a few trainers who think it's the stupidest thing they've ever seen. This isn't about "shooting and moving", so don't go there with me ... it's about spinning.
• Sarah said that Bill is former Special Forces. Can anyone - including Bill - validate that claim, or is it a case of Stolen Valor?
• The ADE website makes vague claim of "Spec Ops and Law Enforcement" instructors. Are they certified by even a single mlitary or LE authority to make this claim?
• In the "Leap Frog Advance" video, why does the instructor on the left muzzle his partner during the advance? Why are they both reloading at the same time instead of one team member maintaining cover/harassment fire wile his partner loads? (in other words, why are the instructors operating in contradiction to established team-tactics principles?)
• What about the safety problems observed firsthand by AM9000?

No one is questioning the ability of this organization to entertain people, make you feel special, and impart some minimal level of training to their students. Some people are easily impressed (I know, I've been there, lol), but that's not the point. Make your own choices, and kudos for getting some kind of training ... there are simply better choices out there for your dollar, IMHO.

[ZombieTactics]

Originally Posted by Bunduki

Ha. Sorry, no. I don't leave my personal information all over the internet and I'm certainly not sharing it with you. ...

Nobody asked you for "personal information", which indicates to me that you have a reading comprehension problem or are simply astroturf-ing for this company.

For my own part, I can tell you that I am a life-long shooter, have trained with what most professionals think are some of the top national schools, as well as many regional companies with excellent reputations, often alongside bona-fide, non-made-up current/former LE and military types. As such I have a reasonably informed point-of-view.

What I see in the ADE videos is mostly some very minimal skills dressed up in a bunch of stunt-school, Hollywood inspired nonsense.

[tyrist]

They look like a joke.

Watching the last few seconds of the video zombietactics posted where they are shown clearing a shoot house shows they don't know what they are doing. Not to mention where they squeeze up and then get bottled necked.

[760practicalshooter]

^

[tomd1584]

this is my favorite:

American Warriors Test: A.D.E. classifies standard military and police gun tests as "extremely unrealistic," opting for a seven-hour test involving a gamut of circumstances. Participants receive ratings of American Warrior, American Operator or American Defender. Only seven people are designated American Warriors.

http://www.americandefenseenterprise...ors%20test.htm

[USM0083]

Originally Posted by tomd1584

this is my favorite:



http://www.americandefenseenterprise...ors%20test.htm

Wow...what a bunch of jokers.

[Shenaniguns]

.

[STEALTHGHOST]

What a hand job !

[jmsenk]

I'm a member on Lightfighter.net and just saw ADE getting butchered on that forum as well. There is a fair amount of switched on guys here at Calguns, but lightfighter is full of real deal operators who's opinion I trust when it comes to tactics and training. The concensus is these guys are a bunch of clowns.

None of the training I have had in the military has been as dangerous as what I have seen in a lot of these videos, and I am surprised that no one has been shot in their classes yet - or that they are allowed to operate in a state as restrictive as California.

I am not a Green Beret - I was a Light Infantryman and a Paratrooper, but I have spent a significant portion of my time in and around the SOCOM community. I've had supressive fire and machine gun rounds walking across an objective a few feet in front of me and my team, but thats as close as they ever got (Fire controls anyone?) and I don't know anyone who would be comfortable with individuals shooting at their back like that. period.

[Backinblack1234]

Looks like a 1980's B movie gone wrong. Looks very unsafe.

[tyrist]

There really is a need for the firearms training industry to start policing itself. There should be some type of approval or professional certification for these schools. It appears pretty blatant that some of these training companies are putting themselves and their students in mortal danger intentionally.

[AM9000]

There is obviously a market for this type of training and the principals of ADE have reacted to that money. Im sure there are a lot of people who come to LAX looking for that and when they see the black uniforms with ADE logo pins and patches they must think these guys are the real deal when in fact they are just dressing the part.

While I would take some pointers from them in regards to competition style shooting (their instructors for the most part can draw, shoot and reload very fast), the drills and games they are playing with groups of inexperienced students seemed less than safe.

[beltjones]

Originally Posted by AM9000

There is obviously a market for this type of training and the principals of ADE have reacted to that money. Im sure there are a lot of people who come to LAX looking for that and when they see the black uniforms with ADE logo pins and patches they must think these guys are the real deal when in fact they are just dressing the part.

While I would take some pointers from them in regards to competition style shooting (their instructors for the most part can draw, shoot and reload very fast), the drills and games they are playing with groups of inexperienced students seemed less than safe.

I'm not the best competition shooter on the planet, but those guys look like low level D shooters to me. Rank beginners. Their reloads are terrible, their recoil control is abysmal, they actually aren't shooting all that fast (especially considering how close the targets are), and their draws are simply bad and don't demonstrate any kind of current technique.

[l8apex]

Originally Posted by jmsenk

None of the training I have had in the military has been as dangerous as what I have seen in a lot of these videos, and I am surprised that no one has been shot in their classes yet .

I can second this. Most switched on types are consummate professionals and sticklers for safety. The practice, exposure and advocation of unsafe gun handling ala 'hollywood' doesn't make a person a gunfighter, just like a full sleeve tattoo doesn't make you a UFC fighter. That without a doubt is not HSLD training.

[IPSICK]

Originally Posted by AM9000

There is obviously a market for this type of training and the principals of ADE have reacted to that money. Im sure there are a lot of people who come to LAX looking for that and when they see the black uniforms with ADE logo pins and patches they must think these guys are the real deal when in fact they are just dressing the part.

While I would take some pointers from them in regards to competition style shooting (their instructors for the most part can draw, shoot and reload very fast), the drills and games they are playing with groups of inexperienced students seemed less than safe.

This is not competition style shooting. You would get disqualified and asked to leave the range for the type of unsafe gun handling they are demonstrating. As beltjones comments, they would likely rank no higher than D class in USPSA if they were even allowed to compete.

[wangankin]

LOL... ADE....