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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 08-23-2009, 9:51 AM
rjk rjk is offline
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Default CA Firearms Licensee Check System (CFLC)

This question about the CFLC program has been nagging me for some time. I am a CA resident, have a current FFL03 and CA COE. I've been a follower of this site and work hard to be current and educated on the laws. When in doubt, I donít do it. I find this site useful, but donít recall that my questions have ever been covered.

The CA DOJ website says the following: ďAs of July 1, 2008, California Penal Code Section 12072(f)(1) [PDF 30 kb / 1 pg] prohibits all Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), other than Type 03 or 06 FFLs, from shipping firearms to an FFL in California unless, prior to delivery, the FFL intending to deliver, sell or transfer the firearms obtains a verification approval number from the California Department of Justice (CADOJ) Bureau of Firearms. This includes transfers that occur at gun shows.Ē

The phrase ďother than Type 03 or 06 FFLs,Ē suggests that these FFLs can ship to CA (transfer in CA) without going through the CFLC program. How does this apply to the following?

1. Can an out-of-state FFL03 legally ship a C&R handgun to an in-state FFL01 without going through the CFLC?

2. Can an out-of-state FFL03 legally ship a C&R handgun to an in-state FFL03 without going through the CFLC?

3. Can a CA resident FFL03, when physically out of state, purchase a C&R handgun and legally ship it to themselves in CA without going through the CFLC?

Any input and thoughts are appreciated and I understand that this is not legal advice.
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  #2  
Old 08-23-2009, 10:28 AM
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Assuming you can take the web site information as accurate (and I don't see anything in the actual law or regulations that suggests otherwise), the answer to question 1 appears to be 'yes', question 2 'no', and question 3 'probably'.

I believe CA will not permit transfers of C&R handguns without an 01 FFL if the transfer occurs in CA, as in the owner ships to the CA collector, but it's legal to travel out of state, acquire C&R handguns, bring them back to CA, and report the acquisition.

But if you already made the transfer out of state, I don't see a reason you can't ship your own legally-acquired property to yourself. Then again, I'm not the DOJ.
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Last edited by Librarian; 08-23-2009 at 10:31 AM..
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Old 08-23-2009, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Assuming you can take the web site information as accurate (and I don't see anything in the actual law or regulations that suggests otherwise), the answer to question 1 appears to be 'yes', question 2 'no', and question 3 'probably'.

I believe CA will not permit transfers of C&R handguns without an 01 FFL if the transfer occurs in CA, as in the owner ships to the CA collector, but it's legal to travel out of state, acquire C&R handguns, bring them back to CA, and report the acquisition.

But if you already made the transfer out of state, I don't see a reason you can't ship your own legally-acquired property to yourself. Then again, I'm not the DOJ.
How could the answer to number 2 be no?
The question was: 2. Can an out-of-state FFL03 legally ship a C&R handgun to an in-state FFL03 without going through the CFLC?


What part of;

Quote:
prohibits all Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), other than Type 03 or 06 FFLs, from shipping firearms to an FFL in California unless, prior to delivery, the FFL intending to deliver, sell or transfer the firearms obtains a verification approval number from the California Department of Justice (CADOJ) Bureau of Firearms
does it say the CFLC applies to any 03 or 06 FFL?

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcfaqs.php#4

4.Are any California FFLs exempt from the CFLC verification approval requirement?
Yes. The CFLC program does not apply to FFLs with Type 03 (curio and relic collectors) and Type 06 (ammunition dealers) licenses.
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Last edited by hawk1; 08-23-2009 at 10:50 AM..
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Old 08-23-2009, 11:17 AM
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It is the type 03 exclusion from the CFLC program and how the CFLC program has been interpreted that I find the most perplexing. The CFLC program is an "inbound" program, therefore the exclusion must apply to type 03s located out-of-state. It logically follows that type 03s can ship (C&R handguns) into the sate without going through the CFLC program. The question is to whom? Perhaps there is some other "recipient" law that prohibits receiving handguns by other that an FFL01. If so, then I can see where question #2 may be no. Even then, question #1 should be true. Question #3 still seems to be maybe.
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Old 08-23-2009, 11:43 AM
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Hmmm, still thinking about these questions. The CFLC program is an "inbound" program, therefore the exclusion must apply to type 03s located out-of-state. The CA DOJ FAQ #4 (listed two up in this thread) says that California type 03s are excluded. So it seems that both in-state and out-of-state type 03s are excluded. Doesn't logically follow that an out-of-state FFL03 can legally ship a C&R handgun to an in-state FFL03 without going through the CFLC program?
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Old 08-23-2009, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk1 View Post
How could the answer to number 2 be no?
The question was: 2. Can an out-of-state FFL03 legally ship a C&R handgun to an in-state FFL03 without going through the CFLC?


What part of;



does it say the CFLC applies to any 03 or 06 FFL?

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcfaqs.php#4

4.Are any California FFLs exempt from the CFLC verification approval requirement?
Yes. The CFLC program does not apply to FFLs with Type 03 (curio and relic collectors) and Type 06 (ammunition dealers) licenses.
Perhaps I'm confused here, but I was strongly under the impression that CA would not permit interstate sales of C&R handguns directly to C&R holders (that is, ship them here from out of state), but it is OK for C&R holders to go out of state and acquire C&R handguns and report them when they return to CA.

It's apparently true that C&R licensees need not be on the Roster of Dealers, and thus a shipment to a CA C&R dealer need not have a CFLC number.

My 'no' answer is based on the shipment being prohibited rather than the shipment requiring a CFLC number.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

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Old 08-23-2009, 1:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
My 'no' answer is based on the shipment being prohibited rather than the shipment requiring a CFLC number.
I'd agree with this. Multiple laws are in play when shipping a C&R handgun into the state. Yes, there is a CFLC exemption, but there isn't an exemption to the need to use an 01 FFL to DROS it to the 03 FFL.
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Old 08-23-2009, 1:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Perhaps I'm confused here, but I was strongly under the impression that CA would not permit interstate sales of C&R handguns directly to C&R holders (that is, ship them here from out of state), but it is OK for C&R holders to go out of state and acquire C&R handguns and report them when they return to CA.

It's apparently true that C&R licensees need not be on the Roster of Dealers, and thus a shipment to a CA C&R dealer need not have a CFLC number.

My 'no' answer is based on the shipment being prohibited rather than the shipment requiring a CFLC number.
Ok, I see what you did there. The way it read before was the answer to number 2 was because of the CFLC.
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Old 08-23-2009, 1:48 PM
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I have no doubt that there are multiple laws that come into play, and my motivation is simply to better understand the cans and can'ts.

If the law requires the use of a an 01 FFL to receive and DROS before delivery in CA to a legitimate buyer, what is the point of the CFLC exemption for the sending out-of-state FFL03?
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Old 08-23-2009, 2:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjk View Post
I have no doubt that there are multiple laws that come into play, and my motivation is simply to better understand the cans and can'ts.

If the law requires the use of a an 01 FFL to receive and DROS before delivery in CA to a legitimate buyer, what is the point of the CFLC exemption for the sending out-of-state FFL03?
Well, you could reasonably ask the same question about the entire CFLC program, not merely that aspect.

I think it may be because CA is trying to avoid interstate commerce issues. The regulation, as it stands, governs the behavior of California licensed FFLs - they're subject to punishment if they accept a shipment from another 01 FFL, either in state or out of state, that has no number. CA is free to regulate its FFLs pretty much as it chooses, and with the CFLC program it is imposing no burden on out of state FFLs that is does not impose on its own.

Collector-licensed persons, Federal C&R holders, as well as private individuals, are NOT licensed by CA. I think it is the case that if CA were to impose CFLC on those people, it would be an impermissible burden on out of state residents.

My guess, anyway.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


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Old 08-23-2009, 3:01 PM
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I
If the law requires the use of a an 01 FFL to receive and DROS before delivery in CA to a legitimate buyer, what is the point of the CFLC exemption for the sending out-of-state FFL03?
the law requires you to use an 01FFL for a C&R handgun, but not for a C&R long gun over 50-years old. So, an 03FFL may receive a 50+year old long gun direct, without having to deal with the CFLC.
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