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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here. |
View Poll Results: With the latest 1/22/2022 Front Sight Restructuring, are you going to: | |||
Stay on as a member and pay all the new fees |
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6 | 3.90% |
Let my membership lapse and do nothing else. |
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71 | 46.10% |
Join a class action lawsuit against Front Sight |
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65 | 42.21% |
Other: explain what you are doing in a post |
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12 | 7.79% |
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll |
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#1
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This is a NEW Front Sight Members Check In Here Thread to take the place of the original thread that has lasted 10 years and can be found here:
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=518454 The original thread has gotten too large and buggy causing multiple posts and slowdowns. I have asked the Mods to lock it down for future posting so that everyone will use this one in its place and we can still refer to the old thread for historical reference. Also there is a new poll! ![]() Thanks, everyone for your support. Hopefully, this thread will last as long as the original even with the latest Front Sight restructuring drama. ![]() |
#2
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Some Pertinent Front Sight Links Please let me know of others I should add.
Facebook Group Organizing a Class Action Lawsuit Front Sight page concerning the January, 2022 Restructuring PDFs of the Various Front Sight Membership Offer Letters Link to get back on the Front Sight email subscription Chronicling Front Sight’s ‘restructuring’ debacle List of Front Sight Instructors for Continued Training Front Sight Skills Test, Dry Practice Manuals and More Last edited by acegunnr; 02-09-2022 at 9:17 AM.. Reason: add links |
#4
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Rick Green of Patriot Academy, who has been a strong proponent of Front Sight, was also taken by surprise by the 1/22/2022 Front Sight Restructuring email. He sent out the following message to his supporters:
"On Saturday morning, we were shocked to receive Front Sight's email on their restructuring. This was a complete surprise to our family and Patriot Academy, especially after a thriving four-year partnership that was mutually beneficial for both Patriot Academy and Front Sight." Rick then communicated specifically to people who signed up through Patriot Academy and his plans to support those individuals. He acknowledged the excellence of the training received and encouraged any communication to the staff at FS to be kind, since it is not their fault. He concludes with: "There are many individuals who will enjoy training at Front Sight under their new system, and we do not want to disparage their choice. As for Patriot Academy, we will no longer be hosting the Constitutional Defense course at their facility." If you have received any further news from Rick Green, please post it here. |
#6
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I have a 4-day private scheduled with several buddies coming up in a few months. I'm torn because I promised my friends this would be a lot of fun and they've all committed, made arrangements to get there, pout deposits down on accommodations, etc.
Because of all that my plan is to go forward with the trip and then bail after that class. I have enough F$ bucks to cover the monthly cost of the membership until then and a large portion of the ammo cost, but no more from that point forward, and will let my membership lapse and forfeit the 30 Founder memberships and 24 4-Day class passes that are in my account. Not going to play this game anymore with the Pizza man. Guy came out in his first email and blamed all of us for his poor business model and poor choice of business partners and bad decision making over the years. Guy should have just stuck with creating and running a place where people can come to train and forgot about the ridiculous dream of opening a resort. If he would have done that, been more humble and still charged a nominal fee for memberships he'd have a pretty amazing facility right now with a ton of happy customers who wouldn't mind paying for those services.
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#7
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I’m trying to cool down a bit before taking any action. I had just “upgraded” to knight for the private training and had one scheduled for April. Was just out there a couple weeks ago for HCM, no idea this was coming.
However it shakes out, I’ve likely spent my last day (and last penny) at Front Sight. Over 10 years I’ve been there for 60+ classes, I’ve done every shooting class except 4-Gun. Sad to see it go… Last edited by steelciocc; 01-24-2022 at 5:23 AM.. |
#8
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I bought a Diamond membership off of this board over 10 years ago for $250. I don’t remember why, but Iggy gave me 5 memberships to give/sell. I gave away 3 to family and a friend. I have gone 9 times and the family/friend once each.
That totals 492 hours of training for $250, or slightly over $0.50 per hour. I never thought Frontsight would last, but every day they proved me wrong. Well, now it’s over but I am very glad I bought the initial membership. I will be booking Gunsight before they fill up. Just need to decide between 350 again, 499, or the Tactical CCW. Would love to hear from anyone who has gone to those and wants to share their experience.
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WARNING: This post will most likely contain statements that are offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense, and or maturity. Satire: A literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule. _____________________________________________ |
#10
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I personally feel bad for my family members I convinced to join FS.
![]() My BIL has been a self appointed Ambassodor of FS since I got him to go for training. I know he has spent a large amount of money on memberships and recruiting new shooters over the years. He has personally been responsible for introducing 25+ new shooters to FS. Just by chance he is on sight today for a class.... I look forward to his thoughts, after talking to staff and instructors today. I got a smoking deal on my Ambassador membership, which I have used many times. Also having been invited to use my BILs private classes has been awesome! I feel I have made out on what I paid vs. what I got. But I know there are members who did not! I will not pay "Nash" extortion money to keep my membership! ![]()
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U.S. Army/Sgt./67N (Aviation/1st CAV DIV, FT. HOOD/2nd INF DIV, S. KOREA/NTC FLT DET, FT. IRWIN) Veteran '81-'86 Last edited by Spartan301; 01-24-2022 at 7:14 AM.. |
#11
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My wife and I purchased Ambassador memberships at a charity auction right before Covid and also from a Calguns member. We paid quite a bit of money for the fundraising auction membership.
We’ve had the memberships for a couple years, but have yet to go to a single Frontsite training course. Quote:
The whole thing seemed to be a “too good to be true” scam from the beginning. I never understood how they could sell a lifetime membership and give the member a bunch of additional memberships to sell to other people. The business model never made sense. At least some of the money I spent went to a good conservation organization. Last edited by middleofnowhere; 01-24-2022 at 7:59 AM.. |
#12
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![]() Quote:
PS: I am not paying any monthly fees or forfeiting my membership because I do not acknowledge the good Dr's legal ability to unilaterally change the terms of my existing agreement / contract. Ultimately as this whole **** show progresses the courts will decide the final outcome. What is up with ****? Can I say poop show? |
#13
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The two fees that must be paid in cash and not FS Bucks are:
- Monthly maintenance fee, $50/month - Daily liability fee (if cannot show $100k insurance for firearm training), $25/day of training The other fees can be paid with FS Bucks. |
#14
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Since we booked this private class well before the restructure we wont have to pay the new daily fees. Still are going to be forced to buy ammo from them though.
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#17
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They "refunded" me the amount for the 1911 that I was promised when I upgraded to a Knight but never received in the amount of $545. Then had another $500 added to my account as some sort of a warrior or loyalty bonus or some crap like that. I'll use that for ammo for the crepitate we had previously scheduled and then GTFO.
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#18
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I wrote them a lengthy email asking questions the morning the initial restructuring email came out, but no replies yet. I'm sure they are getting pummeled with emails and phone calls. gOing to take a day or two before I call.
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#19
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My good friend and I joined with a $250 commitment to see what it was like. For our $250 we got a 2 day handgun class and a “free” Hawk shotgun. I figured I couldn’t loose. Of course that was to get me in the door and on the email list!
But our 2 day class went well and we both upgraded to full memberships. Since then we’ve gone once or twice a year and brought in probably 10 friends and family. Last year we had a group of 14 take the 4Dhandgun class and had a great time! 3 of us brought our sons, truly great bonding. We were supposed to go in April and do it again but that seems unlikely. Now my account shows 1FScoin and zero FS$. I thought I had a couple of thousand “pizza bucks” before all of this. WTF? Do you have to pay with real money before they put any FS$ in your account? I know it takes money to run a business. All of this pyramid scheme marketing over the years has actually been a turn off. I’d actually be OK with a per class charge but I’m not paying $500 a year just to maintain my membership. I’m kinda sad because I’ve enjoyed my classes that I’ve taken there. Pahrump is going to loose a lot of money if FS goes belly up. Last edited by xSlapshotx; 01-24-2022 at 9:06 AM.. |
#21
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I talked to them on Saturday morning right after I read a post here and found out about it. Somehow I had not been receiving his emails. So I got that turned back on. I hadn't read the Email yet so I didn't know the extent of this Edict!
After I read that annoyingly long email I was smokin' hot! Called my Bro and some friends and spread the word. All the people on here that I urged to go to classes there jumped right in and pissed down my leg. Said, "I told you so," and called me names. Over whelming response to this has been FU Piazza! Right now, if I go to my next class it will cost me well over $2000 for the whole trip. Food, Lodging, Gas, Fees, and Ammo. That's for 2 days of Shotgun adn 2 days of Pistol. They will cut the round count down considerably to make it less painful ammo wise, and I know that because they did it last year in my Rifle and Pistol classes in May. Before I would have bought ammo from Walmart in Las Vegas for < $100 for both classes. stayed at My Bros house in Vegas for free, and cost me $150 for fuel. Now my Bro is quitting and not going so I would have to stay in a hotel which is $150 per night easy. But my biggest question is how he plans ion dealing with the Class Action Suit that is coming for Breach of Contract. IE Reneging on the "Lifetime Memberships" he sold ? There will easily be 10,000 people who sign on to that,,, Myself included! Lots of people have seen how I can promote this place and sell it efficiently. Got news for you, I can go negative just as well! And when you F$%^ me, I don't sit still and let you keep doing it. I got an apology email last night from him apologizing for his tone and for blaming us for not supporting him to the desired level. And it was almost as long as the first one. But nowhere in it did I see any "Personal Responsibility for his Mistakes!" For getting himself into this predicament in the first place.! All there was were Explanations/Justifications for the Fees which were covered in the first email and not changed. I have seen one thing with this guy for a long time. He oversells everything, and doesn't know how to close a deal. He could have stated his case in one or two pages in the first Email and not pissed nearly as many people off. I think he basically called the Shyster an "*******" 5 times when one would have been enough. He went over his Exchange in Abundance several times when it was not needed and was only being used as a 'Justification" for his actions now. The whole problem here is that he has spent all the money he has borrowed to run the place and used the site as collateral for those loans. Now he's got his back against the wall, and is desperate. Questions I have? : Why don't you sell the place to the richest members, and there are many. Both Trump Boys are members and could easily buy him out. They could incorporate the place and install a real Corporate Board of Directors that would run the place, and vote on changes and policies. He could have a seat on the board but would not have a title. Brad and a few others could also be on the board, but they could not assemble a controlling voting block, mainly because they are partially responsible for the current situation as well. All memberships would be converted to Shares of Common Stock based on the level of your membership. Those shares could be traded and an initial IPO put out to raise capitol for running the place. Front Sight would become a Publicly Traded Commodity. However all litigation against him would have to be settled before he could do that. Let me know if you think this could be a workable solution? Randy
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Rule #1 Liberals screw up everything they touch. Rule #2 Whatever they accuse you of, they are already doing. Rule #3 Liberals lie about anything no matter how insignificant. Rule #4 If all else fails, they call you a Racist! ![]() It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It is how well you do what you don't know how to do. www.buchananprecisionmachine.com Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 01-24-2022 at 9:55 AM.. |
#22
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FS definitely needs a board and Piazza should go. I appreciate my time and training there and was looking forward to taking my kids when they were old enough. I have 7 Founder's memberships TBD and one Patriot, all with the hope that family would attend (I bought when single and now have said family). I feel betrayed and Piazza is a dream crusher. I hope this is another email scheme since I can't wrap my head around the legal issues he's opening himself to.
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#23
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![]() Quote:
If the finances didn't support the facility and they were forced to go BK, then restructure, I might be willing to understand. But to just take every member benefit away is beyond bad faith and I don't know why anyone would expect them to honor any new commitments they make. |
#24
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I really wouldn't have minded spending $600/year to maintain my membership. I have been out there about 3 times a year, so that still would have made it a fantastic value. Even if I only went once a year and took a 4-day class it would have been a great deal. Heck, many people spend that much or more for a gym membership that they never use.
But all the other added fees and new policies and continued shady practices mean no more for me.
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#25
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#26
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One of the things that concerns me is if I need to maintain my membership in order to maintain my ability to sue. I feel like nothing is going to happen until he cleans house on Mar 1st. Everyone who didn't pay would be gone. At that point something may happen.
I can imagine an email saying something you are still hear and one of my most valued members..... then an offer. I also think it is going to take sometime for a lawsuit to actually spin up and to try and define the class for a class action. |
#27
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I'll preface this by saying, I'm a police officer and Piazza is no different that the subjects I contact constantly, who do something stupid but think it's my fault they are in trouble.
Just for that reason alone, I won't be continuing my membership under the new rules. I've attended a few courses on certificates from Ebay, and was gifted a Commander-level membership from one of the people I bought a certificate from. Once per year I would take two weeks off, take two four day courses, and spend time in Vegas in between. The only money Front Sight saw from any of that was the $50 background checks and the $60 sunglasses I bought at the pro shop once, because I stepped on mine. From the beginning I've believed his business model was unsustainable: He's been giving away his means to make money to other people. Imagine if Ford gave people who bought Fords the ability to give away or sell Fords to other people... without even giving Ford a cut... but Ford still had to build the car. The training is OK, a bit outdated but fine for the vast majority of people... better than the training most gun owners get, which is none. It's sad that an easily accessible and inexpensive (if done intelligently) source of training is going to disappear, but he did it to himself. I won't be paying the new fees, and I agree this is likely a scheme to wring as much cash out of members as possible before bankruptcy.
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"I am a Soldier. I fight were I'm told and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr. |
#29
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The “rules” have changed three times since Saturday. Not huge, but incrementally. The deadline for me is 2/28 when the membership maintenance fee has to be paid or I lose it all.
I’ll keep my finger on the pulse and make a decision much closer to the date. On the one hand, I’ve lost any trust in Piazza that he’d stick to his promises. On the other, I want to see the school survive the calamity and the good instructors keep their jobs.
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![]() The wife will be pissed, but Jesus always forgives. |
#30
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![]() Quote:
It is my belief that should you decide for whatever reason to start paying the maintenance fees you will have agreed to his right to change the contract and you have entered into a new contract with Front Sight accepting all the new terms and conditions. I think I read that part of the new terms is he has the right to change the contract terms and conditions at any time. I believe that while you may gain some short term benefits with a last class you will loose in the long run. |
#31
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This is a copy of the email I just sent to all the Front Sight employees.
To all the Front Sight employees. Thank you for your all your efforts. They have been most appreciated. It is and has been you who have positively impacted members like myself the most. The work, effort, professionalism from the office staff, pro shop people, maintenance, and of course the firearms instructors were superb. All I ever heard was positive accolades with regard to the day to day operations. I am so sorry for all who will be loosing their jobs. I am sorry Front Sight is ending. The city of Pahrump and individual business will also take a big hit as well. My hope is that in coming months or years after this mess has been adjudicated there will some way to resurrect a new fresh clean firearms training facility where Front Sight used to stand. |
#32
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I have not received a call, letter nor email
I am opted out of marketing material. I sent FS and email and am waiting for a reply.
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Rule 1- ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED Rule 2 -NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY (including your hands and legs) Rule 3 -KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET Rule 4 -BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT (thanks to Jeff Cooper) |
#33
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![]() Quote:
THIS! Iggy called with a robo call this afternoon. Did not listen to his schtick. Did try to get transfered to a real person - no joy. Was planning to go to FS in late April or early May with a group of about 7-10 but not now. A BK, if necessary, may be preferable to this unilateral nonsense in that a judge or master would most likely require real business based solutions. Perhaps Doctor P. should go back to his chiropractic business - especially if chiropractors have to abide by the Hypocratic Oath - first do no harm...
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#34
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Just learning about this through this thread since I shut down Iggy speak years ago.
My wife, I and two friends will (probably) still be going to 4 Day Rifle since we had signed up before The Decree came down. We'll pay the monthly fees at the deadline and each monthly as due until the class in April. We had bought ammo already so that stings a little but more ammo is never a bad thing unless he's gouging on The Bunker stuff. We will probably let it go after April though since once a year is a stretch to make it worthwhile.
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Note To Self - Get More Trigger Time |
#35
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This email is in response to your immoral, unethical and most important illegal unilateral attempt at nullifying an agreement / contract I have with Front Sight. I currently have a Front Sight lifetime membership with specified benefits. I do not acknowledge your authority to cancel this agreement / contract. I expect you to fulfill the terms of our contract. Should you choose to ignore this and proceed unilaterally, I will at my discretion reserve the right individually, or as part of a class action initiate any and all legal proceedings as deemed necessary to enforce the contract or be compensated for my loss.
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#36
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![]() Quote:
![]() Im also had plans on a great road, camping, firearms trip with 8 to 15 people for May 6th from Idaho. We were about to consolidate who was going and get memberships for all those that needed them. Thank God I told everyone to hold off until the first or second week in Feb or I would have had to reimburse everyone for their memberships! Dodged a bullet there. Obviously the trip is off! ![]() |
#37
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Does anyone have a PDF copy of the description of the Knight membership upgrade with everything that was offered/included for the $1,997 upgrade from last year?
I need a copy of that to dispute the charge on my credit card. They are asking for a copy of the new terms after the restructuring and a copy of the terms of the Knight membership before the restructuring.
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![]() Last edited by Vinnie Boombatz; 01-24-2022 at 3:03 PM.. |
#39
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Thank You For Applying to Join the Order of the Knights
of Front Sight Your application was sent to Front Sight, and a confirmation email with exact details of your order was sent to your email box. Please make sure info@frontsight.com and newsletter@frontsight.com are in your address book and/or allow list. Your application will be personally reviewed and approved by me, Dr. Ignatius Piazza, within 5 business days. If for any reason, your application is not approved, your payment will be refunded in full immediately. Order Information: You Will Receive: 1. Your membership and membership card will be upgraded to the title, Knight of Front Sight. 2. You will receive a Knight of Front Sight pin. 3. You will receive a Knight of Front Sight hat. 4. You will receive a customized Front Sight Knight assisted, fast-opening, folding knife. 5. You will receive a customized Knights of Front Sight 1911 in .45ACP. 6. You will receive a full size, Knights of Front Sight shield and sword. 7. You will have a separate e-mail with the @FrontSightKnight.com designation. 8. You will receive regular, confidential e-mails from me as part of the process of training you and your fellow Knights of Front Sight. 9. You will be invited to personal training events and Front Sight policy seminars that I, Knight #1, and Brad Ackman, Knight #2, and Rick Green, Knight #3, and Tim Larkin, Knight #4, will conduct for you and your fellow Front Sight Knights. 10. You will have annual opportunities to rise within the Order of the Knights of Front Sight to receive greater and greater levels of status, honor, prestige and leadership through your participation with your fellow Knights and the Front Sight organization. 11. One Million Front Sight Patronage Points added to your Front Sight Account. Knight of Front Sight membership provides you with the following additional benefits: * Special Recognition on Front Sight's Lifetime Members' Monument as one of the original Knights of the Order of the Knights of Front Sight. * Will Your Knight of Front Sight Status to a Deserving Heir (Heir must be accepted by your fellow Knights to enter the Order.) * Access to purchase ammunition FOR LIFE at 20% OVER COST * Purchase GUNS AT COST from Ammo Bunker and have them shipped directly to your local Federal Firearms Licensed Dealer. * Schedule Private Training at Front Sight Nevada accompanied by up to 9 guests, with one month advanced notice. * Attend ANY and ALL regularly scheduled Front Sight Courses Free of Charge at ANY and ALL Front Sight facilities now and any facilities we develop or purchase in the future. * Guaranteed placement in any regularly scheduled course with two weeks advance enrollment... * Receive a 40% savings on any products purchased from the Front Sight Pro Shop at any and all Front Sight facilities. * Invitation to special Front Sight Knight ONLY weekend and week-long training seminars featuring business and Front Sight Policy Training personally provided by Front Sight's Founder and Director, Dr. Ignatius Piazza (Front Sight Knight #1), Curriculum and Firearms Training personally provided by Front Sight Director of Curriculum, Brad Ackman (Front Sight Knight #2), Constitutional and Legal Training personally provided by Attorney and Constitutional Expert, Rick Green (Front Sight Knight #3) and Hand-to-Hand Combat Training personally provided by Target Focus Training's Founder and Director, Tim Larkin (Front Sight Knight #4). * Invitation to the Annual July 4th Front Sight Members' Reunion Celebration. * Invitation to attend the annual July 4th Front Sight Advisory meeting. Your application will be personally reviewed and approved by me, Dr. Ignatius Piazza, within 5 business days. If for any reason, your application is not approved, your payment will be refunded in full immediately. HOW DO YOU GET YOUR GUN? After your order is processed, we will mail you the documentation of your purchase including the certificate for the gun that you will then mail to our Program Guns department along with a $50 check for the shipping of each gun, and the Federal Firearms License information of the Licensed Gun Dealer you wish us to ship your gun. We will then place the order directly with the factory or distributor and once received we will deliver the guns to the Licensed Gun Dealer you selected for transfer to you. Very simple and straightforward. Thanks again for your participation in Front Sight's phenomenal success! Sincerely, Dr. Ignatius Piazza Founder and Director Front Sight Firearms Training Institute |
#40
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Thanks! I dug up that email as well and saved a PDF copy of it. Thanks again.
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