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  #1  
Old 03-24-2016, 4:04 PM
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Default Interstate transfer among some family members

This is starting to bug me.

This is really easy.

If persons are related in California's ridiculous 'immediate family' definition
- parent to child, child to parent
- grandparent to grandchild, grandchild to grandparent
AND NO OTHER RELATIONSHIP,

THEN the process is determined entirely by the states of residence of the parties.

IF BOTH parties are CA residents, the receiver fills in the OPLAW form, sends in the $19, and you're done. That's California law.




IF one party is NOT a CA resident we need to follow Federal law. Federal law requires an FFL for interstate transfer.
It doesn't matter what you may get from a DOJ phone call or the clerk or owner at your local gun store; if they understand the transfer is between residents of different states and do not tell you "FFL" they are wrong.
IF the transfer is a handgun, Federal law requires an FFL in the state of the receiver.
It does NOT matter if that state's state law does not require an FFL for a private transfer, because we're trying to obey Federal law.
IF the receiving family member is a CA resident, the transfer of any gun at all requires the CA FFL.

But because this is an intrafamilial transfer, handgun transfers are exempt from the Roster.




And then, if the Federal law has forced the transaction into a CA FFL, the FFL and the receiving party are required to follow both Federal and California law as applies to an FFL transaction:
1 handgun in 30 days DOES apply
ETA 12/18 - see the thread in the FFL forum, start with http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...&postcount=223 ; CA DOJ inspectors say 1-in-30 does NOT apply
10-day wait DOES apply
Firearms safety certificate DOES apply
DROS applies
4473 applies
Dealer gets to charge his fee
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Last edited by Librarian; 12-07-2018 at 7:04 PM..
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Old 03-24-2016, 7:06 PM
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You should sticky this, not that it will do any good ...
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Old 01-07-2017, 2:32 PM
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bump
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When a Long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, Pursuing Invariably the Same Object, Evinces a Design to Reduce Them [I.E. the People] Under Absolute Despotism, It Is Their Right, It Is Their Duty, to Throw off Such Government, and to Provide New Guards for Their Future Security.”
– Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1776
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."

- Marcus Aurelius
Consider Samizdat; consider some reading material, such as this and that.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.



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Old 02-12-2017, 1:19 PM
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Is this covered by a specific penal code or is it gleaned from many different places in the law?
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Old 02-12-2017, 2:07 PM
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It's a bunch of different places in Penal Code and US Code.

See also the Calguns Foundation Wiki articles on

Intrafamilial transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...Family_Members

Interstate transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...rms_Interstate
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When a Long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, Pursuing Invariably the Same Object, Evinces a Design to Reduce Them [I.E. the People] Under Absolute Despotism, It Is Their Right, It Is Their Duty, to Throw off Such Government, and to Provide New Guards for Their Future Security.”
– Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1776
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."

- Marcus Aurelius
Consider Samizdat; consider some reading material, such as this and that.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.



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Old 02-12-2017, 8:33 PM
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Thank you, those links are great. I tried some links from other threads that didn't seem to work.

A local FFL had told me that a sibling out of state could transfer to a sibling in state. He was wrong.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:19 PM
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I don't see a transfer from blood sibling to blood sibling. Does this not count? My brother lives in ID would love for him to be able to transfer guns to me so I can have off roster non-safe guns to be sold in Calif.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirtbikindad393 View Post
I don't see a transfer from blood sibling to blood sibling. Does this not count? My brother lives in ID would love for him to be able to transfer guns to me so I can have off roster non-safe guns to be sold in Calif.
See the link in post #5...except for husband/wife...
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Old 02-18-2017, 7:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtbikindad393 View Post
I don't see a transfer from blood sibling to blood sibling. Does this not count?
Why do you suppose I wrote
If persons are related in California's ridiculous 'immediate family' definition
- parent to child, child to parent
- grandparent to grandchild, grandchild to grandparent
AND NO OTHER RELATIONSHIP,
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When a Long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, Pursuing Invariably the Same Object, Evinces a Design to Reduce Them [I.E. the People] Under Absolute Despotism, It Is Their Right, It Is Their Duty, to Throw off Such Government, and to Provide New Guards for Their Future Security.”
– Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1776
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."

- Marcus Aurelius
Consider Samizdat; consider some reading material, such as this and that.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.



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Old 02-18-2017, 7:50 PM
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The second sentence you typed, is true, but seemingly not true.
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Old 02-18-2017, 8:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtbikindad393 View Post
I don't see a transfer from blood sibling to blood sibling. Does this not count? My brother lives in ID would love for him to be able to transfer guns to me so I can have off roster non-safe guns to be sold in Calif.
Even if the IFT were legal between siblings, the scenario you describe violates a number of Federal statutes.
One such situation (where the transfer was legal on the state level) resulted in conviction as a straw purchase, even though the recipient was not prohibited.
The 2nd issue is that you just openly stated that intent of the transfer would be for you to sell within CA.
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Old 02-19-2017, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Even if the IFT were legal between siblings, the scenario you describe violates a number of Federal statutes.
One such situation (where the transfer was legal on the state level) resulted in conviction as a straw purchase, even though the recipient was not prohibited.
The 2nd issue is that you just openly stated that intent of the transfer would be for you to sell within CA.
I never said I was selling them I want to own them. I called them (sarcastically) non-safe guns that can't be sold in Calif. which we all know is BS because the gun is safe in almost all other states but not in this one. I just want to own guns I can't get like a SA Range Officer 1911 in 9mm.
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Old 02-19-2017, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtbikindad393 View Post
I never said I was selling them I want to own them. ......
That might have been what you meant. It wasn't what you wrote, but that might have been a typo.

Be that as it may, you're still out of luck:
  • If your brother buys guns on your behalf with you directly or indirectly funding the purchases, your brother would be violating federal law (making illegal straw purchases in violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6)); and your would be aiding and abetting the crime making you liable as well.

  • And in any case your brother couldn't transfer the off roster Guns to you in California.
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Old 02-21-2017, 8:50 AM
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Thank you for the info (and especially clear language), but I have yet to find an California FFL that will receive an off roster handgun from my mothers FFL in Arizona. Sorry for the ignorance, but is there a list of FFLs who understand the law?
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Old 02-22-2017, 7:37 AM
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To further continue this conversation, I spoke with a couple of FFL in my area and they said there is no option to choose intrafamilial transfer for an off roster firearm or otherwise in there receiving process. So, my question- what are the requirements of an FFL during this process? I think this is why there is so much confusion amongst dealers and store clerks. It would be helpful if an FFL that has successfully completed this process would comment here...
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Old 02-22-2017, 7:53 AM
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C.Wulf:

I suggest you ask this in the FFL sub-forum.
More of them will see it there and respond.

Good luck, there are several places out there assuming the gun is otherwise CA legal.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/f...play.php?f=168
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Old 02-22-2017, 1:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.Wulf View Post
To further continue this conversation, I spoke with a couple of FFL in my area and they said there is no option to choose intrafamilial transfer for an off roster firearm or otherwise in there receiving process. So, my question- what are the requirements of an FFL during this process? I think this is why there is so much confusion amongst dealers and store clerks. It would be helpful if an FFL that has successfully completed this process would comment here...
The FFL thread on this is http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...=intrafamilial
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When a Long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, Pursuing Invariably the Same Object, Evinces a Design to Reduce Them [I.E. the People] Under Absolute Despotism, It Is Their Right, It Is Their Duty, to Throw off Such Government, and to Provide New Guards for Their Future Security.”
– Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1776
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."

- Marcus Aurelius
Consider Samizdat; consider some reading material, such as this and that.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.



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Old 02-23-2017, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
1 handgun in 30 days DOES apply
I ran up against this with a family transfer. I stupidly and erroneously assumed that this would be considered a private party transfer and attempted to DROS another handgun to myself and it got kicked back...tried to argue, realized I was totally wrong and waited the appropriate time and then took home the second handgun. Annoying, yes, and I had to pay two DROS fees...but 100% my fault.
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Old 02-26-2017, 8:33 PM
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If I am visiting my son (in Ohio) and he gives me a gift of a hand gun. What should I do? Can I bring it home with me to CA and take it to a CA FFL for 10 day wait, DROS etc? Can I bring it home and file the form with CA DOJ myself? Should I mail it to my FFL? Does my son need to be the one to send it?

Sorry, I want to follow the rules, but I am in OH now with him.

Thanks,
Ron
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Old 02-26-2017, 8:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ron1117 View Post
If I am visiting my son (in Ohio) and he gives me a gift of a hand gun. What should I do? Can I bring it home with me to CA and take it to a CA FFL for 10 day wait, DROS etc? Can I bring it home and file the form with CA DOJ myself? Should I mail it to my FFL? Does my son need to be the one to send it?

Sorry, I want to follow the rules, but I am in OH now with him.

Thanks,
Ron
You should contact your favorite FFL dealer and ask him if he can handle a intrafamily interstate transfer, and if he understands the rules to do so. Then you ship it to him or have it shipped by an FFL dealer there. You can not bring it back with you, you can not bring it home and file the OPLAW form, doing either of those would in fact be a violation of the 1968 GCA and it would be a felony for both you and your son.

You need to contact a FFL here in Ca who is willing to do the transfer, do not let them tell you you don't need to do the transfer through a dealer for this type of transaction.
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Old 02-26-2017, 8:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ron1117 View Post
If I am visiting my son (in Ohio) and he gives me a gift of a hand gun. What should I do? Can I bring it home with me to CA and take it to a CA FFL for 10 day wait, DROS etc? Can I bring it home and file the form with CA DOJ myself? Should I mail it to my FFL? Does my son need to be the one to send it?

Sorry, I want to follow the rules, but I am in OH now with him.
It must be shipped into California through an FFL.

Roster exemption applies, but it is not a PPT, so normal transfer fees would apply.

Be sure the FFL understands the legality of an intrafamilial transfer BEFORE shipping the gun to him.


There are only two situations where it would be legal for you to bring the gun home with you:
1 - The gun was manufactured prior to 1898
2 - The gun is a C&R *and* you are an 03FFL with COE.

If you have to ask, it sounds like #2 does not apply.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 02-27-2017, 12:13 PM
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I just got back to Cal Guns after some time (hence the time lag).
I am a class one FFL and CA. licensed.
I was exectuor on my friends will after he dies. I asked CA. DOJ for help on this-it took them "45 days" to respond. Meanwhile I did fiqure it out and did as you say-A out of state FFL transfer of the guns to a AZ. FFL.
Russ in N.C.
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Old 03-03-2017, 9:18 PM
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Q: Can my parents from the east coast purchase off CA roster Ruger mk4 and ship from their FFL to my FFL in CA as a gift? Do gifts have to be older? and is there a maximum amount of gifts I can receive?

Last edited by DylanSL; 03-03-2017 at 9:28 PM..
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Old 03-03-2017, 9:30 PM
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Thank you for the very prompt response! I appreciate your help, and fixed the issue.
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Old 03-03-2017, 9:38 PM
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I haven't seen this answered or asked:

If my grandparent wants to gift me a handgun, and said grandparent lives in Arizona:
Can they make an order online from any online retailer, and have it directly shipped from the online retailer to my FFL where I do the transfer?
Or, does my grandparent have to first take possession, meaning they must Dros it to themselves and then ship it to my FFL where I then transfer it from them to me?
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Old 03-03-2017, 9:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeTheClay View Post
I haven't seen this answered or asked:

If my grandparent wants to gift me a handgun, and said grandparent lives in Arizona:
Can they make an order online from any online retailer, and have it directly shipped from the online retailer to my FFL where I do the transfer?
Or, does my grandparent have to first take possession, meaning they must Dros it to themselves and then ship it to my FFL where I then transfer it from them to me?
Your grandparent would have to take possession. A legible color copy of a state ID, along with a note showing that it was a gift from a Ca described direct relative, for the FFL to keep with his paperwork, needs to be included.
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Old 03-04-2017, 6:57 AM
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Ok, I hope this is not a dumb scenario, Say, we have a son that lives in Texas, who buys a non roster handgun as a gift to his mother. His mother is retired LEO who has a 50 state CCW that is non serial number specific. Can she carry this new piece home via a vehicle? Would it have to then be given to a local FFL for the 10 day wait. I appreciate any clarification
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Old 03-04-2017, 8:08 AM
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Originally Posted by LD-Ordie View Post
...Can she carry this new piece home via a vehicle? ....
No. Federal law requires that the handgun be shipped by the son (a Texas resident), or by an FFL on behalf of the son, to an FFL in the mother's State of residence. She then has the gun transferred to her by that FFL in accordance with all the usual formalities (e. g., completion of the form 4473).
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Old 03-05-2017, 7:37 AM
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Default off roster hand gun family transfer

I want an off roster current production hand gun. My brother lives in a state the gun is legal to buy new. He can buy the gun then gift it to my mother who lives in CA right? Now the gun is registered and legal for my mom to own in CA right? Would my mom be able to then gift it to me in CA thus making it legal for me to own the gun in CA? if all of these are a yes is there any amount of time she has to keep it in her name before gifting it to me?
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Old 03-05-2017, 9:07 AM
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Originally Posted by LACRESTALONGSHOT View Post
I want an off roster current production hand gun. My brother lives in a state the gun is legal to buy new. He can buy the gun then gift it to my mother who lives in CA right? Now the gun is registered and legal for my mom to own in CA right? Would my mom be able to then gift it to me in CA thus making it legal for me to own the gun in CA? if all of these are a yes is there any amount of time she has to keep it in her name before gifting it to me?
There's still a possible problem.
  1. What matters is the substance rather than the form of a transaction.

    1. In the transaction described (Child A to Parent to Child B), while the form of the transaction appears to be two successive intrafamilial transfers, the actual intent when the hokum is stripped away is to get the gun from one brother to the other.

    2. Thus the substance and intent of the transaction is to transfer the gun from a brother to a brother. Under Penal Code 27545, such transfer must generally go through an FFL with the usual formalities (DROS, etc.).

    3. The use of the parent as intermediate transferee is a mere subterfuge to attempt to invoke the exemption of Penal Code 27870.

    4. However, it is entirely possible that a court will look beyond the sham form of the transaction and see the underlying transaction as one outside the 27870 exemption.

    5. The true nature of the transaction is a question of intent. But prosecutors in various situations can convince juries of intent, often from circumstantial evidence. A slip of the tongue, posting something on the Internet, tracks left by money transfers have all, in one way or another, and in various contexts, helped convince a jury of intent.

  2. The sham transaction as described above specifically and directly violates Penal Code 27515 and 27520.

    1. Penal Code 27515 provides, in pertinent part, as follows (emphasis added):
      Quote:
      27515. No person, ...shall ... transfer a firearm to anyone whom the person, ... knows or has cause to believe is not the actual purchaser or transferee of the firearm, ..., if the person, ... has either of the following:
      (a) Knowledge that the firearm is to be subsequently ...transferred to avoid the provisions of Section 27540 or 27545.

      (b) ...
    2. Penal Code 27520 provides, in pertinent part, as follows (emphasis added):
      Quote:
      27520. No person, ... shall acquire a firearm for the purpose ... transferring the firearm, if the person, ...has either of the following:
      (a) ...

      (b) In any other case, intent to avoid either of the following:
      (1) The provisions of Section 27545.

      (2) ...
    3. In the transaction described (Child A to Parent to Child B) ---

      1. The intent of the first transferor is to ultimately see the gun transferred to his brother, a transfer which, under 27545, must go through an FFL.

      2. But instead he transfers the gun to a parent for the purpose of the parent transferring the gun to the other child (the original transferor's brother), a transfer which would be under the exception to 27545 described in Penal Code 27870.

        • Thus the parent is not the actually transferee of the gun. The parent is merely an intermediary receiving the gun as the agent or proxy of one of his children and for the purpose of transferring it to to another of his children (the original transferor's brother) without going through an FFL.

        • All the parties know and understand that to be the nature of the transaction and the purpose of the transfer to the parent.

        • The first transferor (Child A) therefore has transferred a gun to another person knowing that person is not the actual transferee and knowing that person will transfer the gun to to Child B (the original transferor's brother) for the purposes of avoiding going through an FFL. And thus the first sibling has violated 27515

        • Furthermore, the parent has acquired the gun with for the purpose of transferring it to one of his children (the original transferor's brother) and with the intent of thereby effecting the transfer of the gun from one of his children to the another of his children (the original transferor's brother) outside the requirements of 27545. The parent thus violates 27520.
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  #31  
Old 03-05-2017, 10:19 AM
LACRESTALONGSHOT LACRESTALONGSHOT is offline
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Default off roster hand gun transfer

Thanks for the reply.
You explained it very well 100% understood.
It’s the intent of the transaction that is the potential problem.

If this sounds like I am beating a dead horse or dumb just tell me to shut up lol!!


1: son A (out of state) to mom B (ca) is legal. So now Mom B has said off roster handgun in CA with all paper work and fee’s completed. Mom B has never owned or shot a gun but wants to own a Ruger MK 4 and learn to shoot. Mom B wants son C (ca) to teach her how to safely use a firearm but is not comfortable storing and maintaining the gun at her home. Son C being the good son he is offered to maintain, store and teach her.
Can son C who has no problems with DOJ owning his own guns store, test fire and maintain the gun in safe condition for mom C .

2: Can son C transport and test fire mom B pistol without her present?
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  #32  
Old 03-05-2017, 11:30 AM
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Cokebottle Cokebottle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LACRESTALONGSHOT View Post
2: Can son C transport and test fire mom B pistol without her present?
Under the new laws, even a loan requires an FFL transfer and 10 day wait.

Ya, it's stupid, but it's the law now.
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  #33  
Old 03-05-2017, 1:10 PM
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Originally Posted by LACRESTALONGSHOT View Post
...If this sounds like I am beating a dead horse or dumb just tell me to shut up....
Shut up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LACRESTALONGSHOT View Post
.......1: son A (out of state) to mom B (ca) is legal. So now Mom B has said off roster handgun in CA with all paper work and fee’s completed. Mom B has never owned or shot a gun but wants to own a Ruger MK 4 and learn to shoot. Mom B wants son C (ca) to teach her how to safely use a firearm but is not comfortable storing and maintaining the gun at her home. Son C being the good son he is offered to maintain, store and teach her.
Can son C who has no problems with DOJ owning his own guns store, test fire and maintain the gun in safe condition for mom C .

2: Can son C transport and test fire mom B pistol without her present?
All of this is pretty much hogwash. You're rationalizing and making up cute stories. And none of your nonsense has anything to do with what you're really trying to do.

You can make up whatever stories you want, but no one has to believe you.
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  #34  
Old 03-05-2017, 1:13 PM
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Originally Posted by LACRESTALONGSHOT View Post
I want an off roster current production hand gun. My brother lives in a state the gun is legal to buy new. He can buy the gun then gift it to my mother who lives in CA right? Now the gun is registered and legal for my mom to own in CA right? Would my mom be able to then gift it to me in CA thus making it legal for me to own the gun in CA? if all of these are a yes is there any amount of time she has to keep it in her name before gifting it to me?
Will your brother keep the gun for a few months and shoot it at a range? Will your mom keep the gun for a few months and shoot it at a range?

This is a rhetorical question.
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  #35  
Old 03-05-2017, 10:31 PM
LACRESTALONGSHOT LACRESTALONGSHOT is offline
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At least fiddletown thinks the stories are cute!! So I got that going for me!! Or was it hog wash??

But really fiddletown thanks for taking the time to give your view on it, probably keep me from getting in trouble in the long run.

Looks like the MK4 is not going to be possible for me to own as long as I live in CA, I will just have to deal with complete strangers and buy a used MK2.

I will shut up now lol!
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  #36  
Old 04-01-2017, 7:28 PM
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Darryl Licht Darryl Licht is offline
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
This is starting to bug me.

This is really easy.

If persons are related in California's ridiculous 'immediate family' definition
- parent to child, child to parent
- grandparent to grandchild, grandchild to grandparent
AND NO OTHER RELATIONSHIP,

THEN the process is determined entirely by the states of residence of the parties.

IF BOTH parties are CA residents, the receiver fills in the OPLAW form, sends in the $19, and you're done. That's California law.




IF one party is NOT a CA resident we need to follow Federal law. Federal law requires an FFL for interstate transfer.
It doesn't matter what you may get from a DOJ phone call or the clerk or owner at your local gun store; if they understand the transfer is between residents of different states and do not tell you "FFL" they are wrong.
IF the transfer is a handgun, Federal law requires an FFL in the state of the receiver.
It does NOT matter if that state's state law does not require an FFL for a private transfer, because we're trying to obey Federal law.
IF the receiving family member is a CA resident, the transfer of any gun at all requires the CA FFL.

But because this is an intrafamilial transfer, handgun transfers are exempt from the Roster.




And then, if the Federal law has forced the transaction into a CA FFL, the FFL and the receiving party are required to follow both Federal and California law as applies to an FFL transaction:
1 handgun in 30 days DOES apply
10-day wait DOES apply
Firearms safety certificate DOES apply
DROS applies
4473 applies
Dealer gets to charge his fee
Librarian -- Any special circumstances if the gun is not on CADOJ roster (Glock 42 for example) and my parent in NC wants to gift/will/sell to me? Do they have to hand carry to CA, or can a CA FFL dealer accept a legal shipment of it?
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  #37  
Old 04-01-2017, 8:37 PM
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Rastoff Rastoff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Licht View Post
Librarian -- Any special circumstances if the gun is not on CADOJ roster (Glock 42 for example) and my parent in NC wants to gift/will/sell to me? Do they have to hand carry to CA, or can a CA FFL dealer accept a legal shipment of it?
You quoted the answer to your question.
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  #38  
Old 04-01-2017, 8:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Licht View Post
Librarian -- Any special circumstances if the gun is not on CADOJ roster (Glock 42 for example) and my parent in NC wants to gift/will/sell to me? Do they have to hand carry to CA, or can a CA FFL dealer accept a legal shipment of it?
Off Roster is legal - but you have to find an FFL who understands an interstate intrafamilial transfer, who will know what to put into the DROS comment field.

Just as any other interstate transfer,
send from parent,
send to CA FFL through FFL local to parent, or
bring it to CA and go together to the CA FFL
are all legal; call your local CA FFL to see how they prefer to business.
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  #39  
Old 04-02-2017, 12:06 PM
Kate Kate is offline
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Default Sharing the cost of the gift

<If this is beating the poor dead horse, tell me and I will shut up...>

My spouse and I live in CA. My son lives in AZ. My son decides to gift me an off roster handgun. But because the handgun is expensive, and my son is too, he asks my spouse to go in on the present to me. My son buys the handgun, takes possession, and comes to visit, where we go to a knowledgeable FFL for the intrafamilial transfer.

Was it legal for my spouse to "go in on" the cost of the handgun? Does that in some way invalidate the legality of this process?

Thanks for the insights.

K
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  #40  
Old 04-02-2017, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Kate View Post
Was it legal for my spouse to "go in on" the cost of the handgun?
No.

4473 asks if the buyer is the actual purchaser.
Purchasing with the intent to gift is legal, but the buyer must be using their own money.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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