Unprofessional, Dangerous Training?

[Rotting]

I am creating this thread as a "last resort" after reasonable attempts (by me and others) to contact Tactical Response for comment and clarification had failed.

It is my opinion that firearms training organizations should err on the side of being overly communicative when it comes to safety and incidents where student safety are or have been jeopardized.

I am not reporting the following events as fact at this time, rather as a report from a trusted source, but still awaiting confirmation, denial or clarification from those that have first-hand knowledge.

So, as reported to me:

During the recent (Feb 17-18) Tactical Response "Fighting Pistol" course near Sacramento, an instructor instructed the students to throw their pistols on the ground, then the instructor proceeded to stomp on the pistols to make some point along the lines of "these things aren't meant to be pretty, they're meant to be tools, so treat them as such" (quotes mine). He then threw his own pistol onto the ground and stomped on it--resulting in a round being fired parallel to the line of students, into a student's truck, with a possible ricochet towards who-knows-what.

Now, we can discuss the validity of that exercise (do we need to?), but my central issue here is that when the Tactical Response was questioned both privately and publicly about the incident (by me and others), emails were not responded to, comments on various social media outlets were deleted, etc.

As I mention above, if you are in the firearms training business, your students and potential students are entitled to know the operative safety protocols while training with your organization. In turn, the students should be aware of failures of these protocols and efforts to remediate these failures. If these simple concepts are ignored, you are probably dealing with an unsafe (by definition) organization.

[Vertac]

Im not challenging you but Is there any proof?

[TomMcC]

Well let's hope this isn't true......because if it is.......that's some pretty over the top behavior.

If the instructor told me to do that, I would have left immediately and demanded my money back.

[BLEVE]

Did it ever occur to you that any response to your questions could be an admission of fault/guilt. I am pretty sure any of the legal experts here would have advised them to just shut up!

[rmatt]

So I have been involved in writing the protocols for where I teach. Everything we do is written down and you don't deviate from the book in what drills and such are presented. There is a consistency class to class from this and it keeps people from going off the reservation per se.

If I were to submit a SOP that had me instructing the clients to throw their gun on the ground and stomp on it my boss would immediately reject it.

Standards, oversight, professionalism and finding a different way to make the point would have prevented this.

I am glad no one got hurt. I also hope lessons are learned.

[Rotting]

Originally Posted by BLEVE

Did it ever occur to you that any response to your questions could be an admission of fault/guilt. I am pretty sure any of the legal experts here would have advised them to just shut up!

As someone who would probably be considered a "legal expert here", I certainly don't agree with your premise, but perhaps Tactical Response thinks similarly and that explains the lack of response. I'm not really concerned about that.

I am, however, concerned about alleged negligent, dangerous behavior that, by all indications, is in the curriculum. If TR is not willing to address the issue and offer clarification or explanation, then that fact needs to be publicized. Hence, my posting here.

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by Rotting

During the recent (Feb 17-18) Tactical Response "Fighting Pistol" course near Sacramento, an instructor instructed the students to throw their pistols on the ground, then the instructor proceeded to stomp on the pistols to make some point along the lines of "these things aren't meant to be pretty, they're meant to be tools, so treat them as such" (quotes mine). He then threw his own pistol onto the ground and stomped on it--resulting in a round being fired parallel to the line of students, into a student's truck, with a possible ricochet towards who-knows-what.

Damn. I need to start treating my guns better, because i sure don't treat them as well as I treat my tools.

[omgwtfbbq]

Well if true, the instructor could be in legal trouble:

246.3. (a) Except as otherwise authorized by law, any person who
willfully discharges a firearm in a grossly negligent manner which
could result in injury or death to a person is guilty of a public
offense and shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not
exceeding one year, or by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of
Section 1170.

Not to mention vandalism if any of the pistols or the truck in question were damaged.

[Fjold]

I would have failed the class because I would have walked out when they said to throw the handguns on the ground.

[9mmepiphany]

Originally Posted by DeusExMachina

-if TR responds, it will be the same "check the track record" speech

That wouldn't be very wise of them.

If someone were to check too deeply, they discover why TR was considered pretty much a non-entity in the East Coast training community a few years ago.

I guess memories do fade with time

[tanks]

I would have walked out. My guns are "off-roster", hence not safe to throw on the ground .

[teg33]

I treat my guns as tools but I never throw away and stomp my tools

[trypt22]

Wow.... I'm speechless..... I was considering going to that course too.

I realize it's off topic, but what pistol was he running?

[emtmark]

Does it still count as a goatee if you can see through it? #trumpshairdonurchin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[9mmepiphany]

Originally Posted by DeusExMachina

Well, it's already been done....what I was referring to.

Ah, I was referring to why he was no longer employable as a contractor or why he left two LE agencies

[Pardini]

Originally Posted by Rotting

I am creating this thread as a "last resort" after reasonable attempts (by me and others) to contact Tactical Response for comment and clarification had failed.

It is my opinion that firearms training organizations should err on the side of being overly communicative when it comes to safety and incidents where student safety are or have been jeopardized.

I am not reporting the following events as fact at this time, rather as a report from a trusted source, but still awaiting confirmation, denial or clarification from those that have first-hand knowledge.

So, as reported to me:

During the recent (Feb 17-18) Tactical Response "Fighting Pistol" course near Sacramento, an instructor instructed the students to throw their pistols on the ground, then the instructor proceeded to stomp on the pistols to make some point along the lines of "these things aren't meant to be pretty, they're meant to be tools, so treat them as such" (quotes mine). He then threw his own pistol onto the ground and stomped on it--resulting in a round being fired parallel to the line of students, into a student's truck, with a possible ricochet towards who-knows-what.

Now, we can discuss the validity of that exercise (do we need to?), but my central issue here is that when the Tactical Response was questioned both privately and publicly about the incident (by me and others), emails were not responded to, comments on various social media outlets were deleted, etc.

As I mention above, if you are in the firearms training business, your students and potential students are entitled to know the operative safety protocols while training with your organization. In turn, the students should be aware of failures of these protocols and efforts to remediate these failures. If these simple concepts are ignored, you are probably dealing with an unsafe (by definition) organization.

Was this incident reported the Range Management as required by the Range SOP? What was their response?

[Citadelgrad87]

Is there anyone here, including the "stop whining about a scratch, it's a tool" guys, who would comply with that direction in a class or elsewhere?

I cringe in movies when they say "drop it", and a gun hits the cement.

We'd have had a serious conversation about when I'd get my full refund if any clown told me to do that.

[XDJYo]

Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87

Is there anyone here, including the "stop whining about a scratch, it's a tool" guys, who would comply with that direction in a class or elsewhere?

I cringe in movies when they say "drop it", and a gun hits the cement.

We'd have had a serious conversation about when I'd get my full refund if any clown told me to do that.

I understand the concept. A gun is a tool. But, I don't drag my hammers or any of my tools thru the dirt.

I totally agree. If anyone told me to throw my Les Baer or SA Loaded or XD-m on the ground, I would get my refund and walk out.


Sent by a Monkey in Outer Space

[RogerOrange]

Probably was used to training government agents. They don't have to pay for it....

[Sir Toast]

A bullet hole would be an improvement to my POS. I had two bullet holes in my last car, a Nissan ultima. When it rained, I had to put the big Monster can lids over the holes to keep the water out.

[saxman]

I took the fighting pistol class back in 08 in Sac. I was very impressed with the utmost concern for safety that was pushed from the moment we arrived. We were never asked to throw our pistols on the ground or do anything I ever had reason to even think twice about. After hearing about this and seeing the videos of them having photographers down range during live fire activities, I'm left wondering wtf happened. I would highly recommend the class that I took. Sadly, it sounds like they've made a lot of changes for the worst.

[ddindetroit]

Originally Posted by tanks

I would have walked out. My guns are "off-roster", hence not safe to throw on the ground .

Time to get some 'on roster' safe guns in Kali so you can be safe like the rest of us Kompliant sheeps in Kali! LOL!

DD

[ShawnSD]

Found this on Yelp regarding the instructor ND in Sacramento. Looks like the TR yelp account was cancelled after this was posted but the cached file lives on....

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

[XDJYo]

Originally Posted by HopetonBrown

Ken Hackathorn told me to lay my Wilson Supergrade on a target while everyone else had to put their polymer in the mud because "there's no pride of ownership with a Glock" he said.

The polymers were also probably having trouble hitting their targets! LOL!

Originally Posted by ShawnSD

Found this on Yelp regarding the instructor ND in Sacramento. Looks like the TR yelp account was cancelled after this was posted but the cached file lives on....

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

Interesting review. Glad the yelper did that. Too bad it was taken down. Appreciate the link.

Would it be bad or against forum rules to quote it?

[Jamez]

To re-ask the question:

Did anyone tell Sac Valley? Probably the easiest way to clear this up cuz I'd sure like to know.

I've done a similar drill to bring this point home only I only use my own gun, CLEAR IT, drop it in some muddy water pointing down range, with the slide locked, shake it about, run the slide a few times, do the same with a loaded magazine (drop is in muddy water), chamber and fire the magazine on target. I actually stopped this because over the course of a long time, you can imagine it did suffer a few minor needs for repair.

[Spyder]

I want to see where this ends up. Tagged.

[Vu 308]

All,

My name is Vu Pham and I am currently serving as the President of Folsom Shooting Club/Sacramento Valley Shooting center where this incident took place.

Those that visit our range know that we take safety of our members, customers, and visitors very seriously.

For those that were in this class and witnessed the incident first hand, please feel free to contact me via my email @ president@sacvalley.org

We can talk offline and keep things confidential if needed.

Thank you,

Vu Pham
FSC - President

[tonyxcom]

I guess that pretty much confirms it happened.

[Vu 308]

Originally Posted by Jamez

To re-ask the question:

Did anyone tell Sac Valley? Probably the easiest way to clear this up cuz I'd sure like to know.

Our Ops Manager and I were made aware about 24 hours ago and are in the process of investigating the incident so that we can act accordingly.

I would appreciate anyone with first hand knowledge to contact me.

Thank you,

Vu Pham

[Spyder]

Vu, if possible, can you keep us updated on what's going on with it? If not because of legal or confidentiality issues, please let us know when it's clear and done.

[R01]

[bcbragg]

I was there. Nearly shot. Yeager told me I was condescending and refused my refund.

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

Originally Posted by HopetonBrown

I have a feeling there'll be no more Yeager at Sac Valley. Can't believe people pick and pay more to train with Yeager than dialed in guys like Frank Proctor, Mike Pannone or Pat McNamara. Their YouTube channels aren't as big I guess.

I agree. Yeager has claimed that your opinion doesn't matter if you don't have as much training and experience as him. Then he advocates techniques contrary to those taught by guys like Kyle Defoor, Pat McNamara, Mike Pannone, Frank Proctor, John McPhee, and the list goes on. These guys all have more training and experience than him so I guess some of his techniques are wrong by his own argument.

This is why Yeager is so entertaining, he doesn't make any sense most of the time and he gets worked up too easily. It's like watching a train wreck. I can't wait for the poop show to follow if Yeager publicly responds to the allegations. I hope this incident will be the final red flag (after many others) to get people to make better choices when picking shooting instructors.

[Gryff]

I jokingly thought this must be a James Yeager thread when I read the title. Then I found out it really was a James Yeager thread. LOL.

This issue needs to be reported to Sac Valley range management, and that company needs to be banned from being allowed to conduct trainings there. ND from intentionally throwing a loaded gun on the ground? Oh yeah...that should definitely be a one-and-done permaban.

[Vu 308]

Folsom Shooting Club/Sac Valley's Shooting Center leadership is aware of the incident and is currently in the process of investigating what exactly took place.

Vu Pham
FSC - President

[hermosabeach]

Tag for Giggles

Not My Circus
Not my Monkeys

[technique]

Oh yeah. I'm following.

[freonr22]

Tag

[Ph1ree]

It will be interesting to see how he responds.

[technique]

Originally Posted by Ph1ree

It will be interesting to see how he responds.

I'm honestly shocked he hasn't issued a YouTube statement about how everyone at the class is just a "hater".