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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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Interstate sales or transfers to California residents
Much as readers here seem to want it to be different,
98% of the time an INTERSTATE transfer of any kind to an non-licensed California resident MUST go through a CALIFORNIA-licensed FFL. Exceptions:
If you live in California, AND you are not licensed, then
"Sell" is short for "transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person " California, since 1991, has required that transfers go through FFLs (in PC 12070). Hold that thought. (There are a few exceptions - ignore those for now.) FedLaw 18 USC 922 (a)(3) says a non-licensed individual may not bring a gun acquired outside one's state of residence back to that state of residence. It's a 5-year gig in the Federal Pen. FedLaw 18 USC 922 (a)(5) says a non-licensed person may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed person who does not live in the same state where the seller lives. Again, it's a 5-year gig in the Federal Pen. FedLaw 18 USC 922 (b)(3) says a licensed individual may not sell to a non-licensed buyer who lives out of the state where the FFL does business; it has an exception for long guns, but says Quote:
An unlicensed California resident CAN buy guns out of state, from an FFL if the out of state FFL is willing -
There is no such thing as a California PPT with a California buyer and an out of state seller - 18 USC 822 (a)(5) says no. So if a friend from NV wants to sell you a gun, both of you go to a willing California FFL and do a sale - but it will not be a PC 12082 PPT. The Feds do not have the concept of 'immediate family' that California does. Intrafamilial interstate transfers are legal, but still must use a California-licensed FFL. Remember that handguns purchased from out of state, routed through a California FFL, must be on the California Roster, or the California FFL may not deliver it to the buyer. Note the repeated use of the expression willing FFL; California FFls need not accept out of state transfers. That's a business decision, not a legal requirement. Other conditions: Dual citizenship - while rare, this is possible. Certainly one can follow the state laws regarding gun purchases where one currently resides. And CA allows moving to CA with guns legally possessed in another state. CA law, however, does not anticipate a sort of 'continuous moving in' period; moving from one state to another is usually a process with a definite end point.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 11-28-2008 at 10:31 AM.. |
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Hi Librarian,
I'm sorry, but I'm trying to get my head around this July 18th change-up. I deal slightly better with scenarios. 1) Out-of-state, non-FFL, Joe Citizen using Gunbroker consents to sell me a firearm and sends it to my willing CA FFL. - That's legal 2) Out-of-state FFL using Gunbroker consents to sell me a firearm, must register with CA DOJ for his number and only then can send to one of the listed FFLs, one of whom must be willing in CA? In either case, I DROS the firearm to the satisfaction of the law. Thanks, JJ
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Critical items here (you got them, but to be explicit) are (1) the California Firearms Licensee Check System (CFLC) applies only to FFLs - both in state and out of state. Quote:
(2) Out of state FFLs can choose to be in the CFLC program; it's required for CA FFLs. If they choose NOT, then they can't sell to CA residents, because the sale has to go through a CA FFL, and the CA FFL can't accept the shipment from another FFL without the shipment approval number. (3) Any FFL may choose to accept interstate transfers, or not. (4) Any FFL may choose to accept shipments from non-FFLs, or not.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 08-10-2008 at 3:08 PM.. |
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I do not provide legal services or practice law (yet). The troublemaker formerly known as Blackwater OPS. |
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What about folks who are "snow birds" meaning they live in one state for the winter months (Hawaii, Florida, California, etc.) and in another for the summers (Nevada, Idaho, etc.). They are often retired folks who own a home and pay utility, property taxes, etc. and may even leave a car in both states.
For example: Mr. and Mrs. Joe Retiree own homes in Boise, Idaho and Palm Springs, Calif. Winters in Palm Springs, Summers in Boise. Pay property tax, homeowners insurance, etc. in both states, have 1 car in each state registered in those states. In essence, they have bonafide dual state residences. He, as an Idaho resident, buys an off-roster pistol in Boise. Can he bring it into California when he heads to Palm Springs for the winter? Any other issues, problems, benefits for these snow birds? |
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If one follows the rules in one's state of residence, one should be fine. I don't think CA accounted for that possibility when they set up the personal handgun importer requirement for new California residents, but that looks like the avenue to make things legal when "moving" from one state where one is a resident to CA wher one is also a resident.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#7
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If you look at the DROS manual, one of the first things the software requires is that the dealer swipe that CA ID "Read Seller California ID or DMV Card window" for the seller. And here's a theoretical justification for it, based on Federal law: Suppose the buyer fails the background check? In that case, the FFL is required to run a background check on the seller, and if s/he passes, return the gun to the seller. EXCEPT that Quote:
How would a NV resident get a CA id card? If s/he could (legally) get one, wouldn't that establish CA residency?
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 08-10-2008 at 4:13 PM.. |
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So basically what we are saying is the the DOJ is preventing it from happening, but they have no legislative authority to do so... Sounds like underground regulation to me.
I honestly don't know what the process/requirements is for getting a state ID card, I may try to get one just to see. From what I have found online the only requirements are to be a US legal resident, and filling out a "form 44". That form could have residency requirements, I can't find it in PDF. As far as the gun going back to the seller, the receiving (transferring) FFL would have to send it back to an FFL in the seller's home state for the seller to pick up, which make sense. If the seller is not a CA resident he probably went home already anyway. Quote:
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I do not provide legal services or practice law (yet). The troublemaker formerly known as Blackwater OPS. |
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Might be worth trying to get them to explicitly justify that, but I expect they'd come up with something sufficient.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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I do not provide legal services or practice law (yet). The troublemaker formerly known as Blackwater OPS. |
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Cal ID card basically requires a an SSN and a birth certificate or Passport. You do have to give the DMV your "address" and they may require that that is in state as they mail the ID to you. However, if NV resident rented a Box in CA you might be able to get a CA-ID.
At that point, I don't see any issue and I don't see a restriction. However, I think you have a problem here in that the NV resident is importing an unsafe handgun for sale. He may not qualify as a personal handgun importer. -Gene
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Gene Hoffman Chairman, California Gun Rights Foundation DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @cgfgunrights on Twitter. Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly! "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
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#12
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So, if my dad from AZ gives me a long gun during my visit to AZ, I have to have the gun shipped to a CA FFL and do DROS to be able to bring the long gun back to CA?
That seems to be contrary to what some of the FFL's are telling me. They seem to indicate that if your dad gives you a long gun out of state, as long as it is CA compliant, you can simply bring it back to CA. |
#13
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-Gene
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Gene Hoffman Chairman, California Gun Rights Foundation DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @cgfgunrights on Twitter. Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly! "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
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#14
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I think the misinformation is because both many DOJ employees and many FFLs in California are so accustomed to both parties being residents of CA, they forget about the Feds.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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#16
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so i have a question... after reading and searching got me here, sorry about the old thread... can i live in california, buy an under 10round semi auto off gunbroker amt backup,but the company's out of business, not on the roster, but shipped from an out of state ffl or does a c&r holder make a difference? to my ffl here? is there any way to do it? gun made in the 80's ohh maybe i answered my ownquestion... i would have to have it dissassembled down to a bare frame maybe?
thanks for the newb question Last edited by freonr22; 01-09-2009 at 5:18 PM.. |
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OK. If AMT Backup is not on the Roster, no CA FFL can sell it to you. If someone in CA wants to sell it to you via Private Party Transfer, you could buy it that way, but an off-Roster out-of-state gun can't come here and be sold to just anyone. It's not C&R - run-of-the-mill has to be 50 years +, and 1980 isn't even close. If it were C&R, and you had the 03 FFL, you could go out of state and buy it and bring it back, or it could be shipped to a CA FFL and you could buy it here. Last part is, I guess, referring to NRFing; that's not entirely settled yet, but may be soon, so watch for a new thread with details. So, short answer is no, you can't do that, but maybe the work-around will be available Real Soon Now.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#19
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that being the case i thought this was kinda cool
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIte...Item=120445541 and also http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIte...Item=120356871 how neat would it be to have sn: #1??? |
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Example my father who lives in Utah can ship me a handgun not on the roster through a California FFL.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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how about in state california sales? if i sell a pistol on calguns and the seller lives in state. would i be required to send the firearm through an FFL to FFL? or can I send directly to the buyers FFL as an individual?
i've sent firearms out of state and the FFL i send through takes their merry time to send out. it would be more efficient and timely if i send out myself. thanks in advance. |
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Whether shipping to an out of state FFL or a California FFL, you can legally ship the firearm yourself. There is no legal reason to use an FFL on your end. But many FFL's have a policy of only receiving shipments from other FFL's. So you need to ask the receiving FFL beforehand if they will accept a shipment from an unlicensed individual.
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__________________ "Knowledge is power... For REAL!" - Jack Austin |
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#25
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Also, I'm pretty sure that if you are shipping to an FFL, even in state, roster again applies.
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I just spoke to Turner's outdoorsman, and they told me that if my friend who lives in Texas gives me a rifle, I just have to file the following form (Voluntary registration):
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf According to the data you have provided though, as "Sell" is short for "transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person," even gifts are considered sales and must go through an FFL? Does this mean that even though this is a gift, my friend would have to ship the rifle to an FFL and I would need to do another round of background checks and all that business? Quote:
Is this what you were talking about? 18 USC 922 (a)(5) (not 822?) http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922 http://www.fedcoplaw.com/html/federa...arms_laws.html Quote:
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Last edited by kotetu; 02-03-2012 at 11:56 AM.. |
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The guy at Turner's is wrong - please identify which store that is; occasionally we can get someone to talk to a manager. Your contrary conclusion is correct - Feds require an FFL for interstate transfer. (Yes, the one place where the original post said "822" was a typo for "922"). Current repository for the info in the post is http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Tr...rms_Interstate
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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Turner's Outdoorsman Reseda
19329 Vanowen Street Reseda, CA 91335 (818) 996-5033 Thanks Librarian.
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Here's one, lets say a guy has a CA DL and a AZ ID, the place out in AZ is off the power grid, no bills, and he does not own where he lives in AZ, he had an address in Az but that's all, could still buy in AZ, now back in ca if he sells, he still has CA DL.
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"One useless man is called a disgrace, two become a law firm, and three or more become a Congress." the new avatar is a painting from 1906, escape from San Francisco. |
#30
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CA law on new resident 'personal handgun importer' just isn't written for multi-state residency; that said, I'd report my handguns to CA on the PHI form, or, leave them out of state.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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My parents live in South Carolina and are looking to buy a long rifle for me for my birthday. As far as I can tell, its CA compliant, so no issues there. How would I get it here?
1. They just buy it and ship it to me personally. 2. They buy it and ship it to an FFL as a private party transfer. 3. They buy it and need to do an FFL to FFL transfer. From reading the CA DOJ site and this thread, I think its #2, but I want to be sure. Thanks. |
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#33
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2. This, if your CA FFL dealer accepts shipments from a private party. 3. This, if you CA FFL dealer only accepts shipments from FFLs. |
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If your mother-in-law brings the handgun to CA and hands it to your wife. Then your mother-in-law and your wife will be violating Federal laws and sending in the form will document them violating Federal laws (Federal felony for both your mother-in-law & your wife). To be legal, the handgun must be transfered through a CA FFL dealer. |
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Last edited by PanaDP; 05-10-2012 at 11:47 PM.. |
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Because your mother-in-law is not a CA resident, this is not a PPT and the CA FFL dealer can legally charge any amount to do the transfer. However, because it is an intra-familial gift, the handgun is exempt from needing to be on the CA DOJ approved list for handgun sales. Shop around for a CA FFL dealer that is knowledgeable about out-of-state intra-familial gifts and has a reasonable transfer fee. There's a few places in SoCal that have a $70 transfer fee to do this.
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"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001). Last edited by Quiet; 05-11-2012 at 12:01 AM.. |
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So I asked at a couple shops (oaktree and turners in pasadena) what they charged for an intrafamilial transfer where the parent is not a california resident and they both said I don't need to do it at a dealer. What's correct here?
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#39
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Federal law requires an FFL in the receiving state for all hangun transfers, and CA law requires CA residents to use a CA-licensed FFL, so the Feds require the FFL for long guns, too.
The gun stores are wrong. ETA See also the Calguns Foundation Wiki articles on Intrafamilial transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Tr...Family_Members Interstate transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Tr...rms_Interstate Last edited by Librarian; 05-15-2012 at 8:23 AM.. |
#40
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So what am I supposed to do if I must do it through a FFL but no FFL will do it because they tell me it's not necessary? |
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