Problems with Hand gun Frame Purchase

[RLara]

I’m trying to purchase a replacement frame for my 2nd Gen Glock 22 and I need some advice.

I broke my current frame and it’s no longer usable. I went to Gunbroker.com and looked up a couple FFLs in my zip code. Both of them came back and said what I was trying to do was illegal. I want to purchase the Timberwolf frame from Lone Wolf Distributors out of Indiana. Then move all the parts from the broken frame to the new one.

Here is the frame I'm trying to get: http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.a...80127&CAT=3168

Can anyone tell me if what I’m trying to do is illegal in Los Angeles California? If I placed this in the wrong forum, please point me to the correct one I need to be in.

Thanks

[NoNOS67]

Your problem is likely that the frame you wish to purchase is not on the roster.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by NoNOS67

Your problem is likely that the frame you wish to purchase is not on the roster.

... which is the case with all frames - there are only complete guns on the Roster. 'Ordinary' commercial sales must follow CA law, and handguns must be on the Roster.

In short, while you could conceivably buy a frame PPT, you won't be able to get one otherwise.

[SkyHawk]

Unless you are law enforcement or have parent/grandparent/child/grandchild who lives out of state and will give you one, you cannot import this frame into CA.

[djbooya]

If you were going to build an SSE2 compliant pistol with the frame I would argue it might be legal depending how DOES updated ruling on SHD comes up.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by djbooya

If you were going to build an SSE2 compliant pistol with the frame I would argue it might be legal depending how DOES updated ruling on SHD comes up.

Now, if you would be so kind as to unpack the abbreviations and point to a source that explains what you just said, I would appreciate it.

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by Sky.Hawk

Unless you are law enforcement or have parent/grandparent/child/grandchild who lives out of state and will give you one, you cannot import this frame into CA.

What he said.

[djbooya]

Originally Posted by Librarian

Now, if you would be so kind as to unpack the abbreviations and point to a source that explains what you just said, I would appreciate it.

SSE2 reference: http://06-www.calguns.net/calgunforu....php?t=1024890

Tracy Rifle & Pistol created a single shot pistol from the ground up on a receiver that was never previously a semi-auto. That's where I saw the term SSE2 used. I can't find a readily available link of the new PC around what is an acceptable Single Shot Exempt pistol.

SHD = Safe Handgun Demo - it looks like DOJ may change their ruling on it being require for frames/receivers:
under section 4256 on page 6 of:
http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/ag.../text-regs.pdf

Also, if exempt from SHD that would be doable as well (CCW holders for instance).

This is where my theory arises from...so the frame/receiver in my reference coming from Lone Wolf in all likeliness didn't start as a semi-auto pistol. If it did then I would agree it wouldn't be possible.

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by djbooya

SSE2 reference: http://06-www.calguns.net/calgunforu....php?t=1024890

Tracy Rifle & Pistol created a single shot pistol from the ground up on a receiver that was never previously a semi-auto. That's where I saw the term SSE2 used. I can't find a readily available link of the new PC around what is an acceptable Single Shot Exempt pistol.

SHD = Safe Handgun Demo - it looks like DOJ may change their ruling on it being require for frames/receivers:
under section 4256 on page 6 of:
http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/ag.../text-regs.pdf

Also, if exempt from SHD that would be doable as well (CCW holders for instance).

This is where my theory arises from...so the frame/receiver in my reference coming from Lone Wolf in all likeliness didn't start as a semi-auto pistol. If it did then I would agree it wouldn't be possible.

In order to qualify for the "SSE2", it needs to be imported as a complete dimensionally compliant break-top/open barrel single-shot pistol that has never been semi-auto or as a complete dimensionally compliant bolt-action single-shot pistol that has never been semi-auto. A receiver/frame does not qualify for that exemption.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by djbooya

SSE2 reference: http://06-www.calguns.net/calgunforu....php?t=1024890

...

Thanks.

I just read that thread. I think I know less now than before I did that.

[Baboosh]

Well if you buy a bare frame it was never a semi auto pistol so technically it can be built by an 07 FFL into a single shot pistol.

Hard part is finding a break top/bolt action Glock slide.

[djbooya]

Originally Posted by Quiet

In order to qualify for the "SSE2", it needs to be imported as a complete dimensionally compliant break-top/open barrel single-shot pistol that has never been semi-auto or as a complete dimensionally compliant bolt-action single-shot pistol that has never been semi-auto. A receiver/frame does not qualify for that exemption.

I don't agree.. otherwise, TRAP couldn't make a single shot AR pistol that is considered "SSE2" compliant.. none of those receivers were dimensionally compliant when imported/shipped into CA...

What if that's what I wanted to build from a frame?

[Baboosh]

Don't they only need to SSE2 Complaint shipping into the state if the FFL is an 01? If an 07 they can manufacture the pistol to SSE2 specs from a bare receiver as long it was never a rifle nor a semi auto.

[kemasa]

There can also be issues when you manufacture a firearm in CA. There is a permit which I have heard of, yet it is not on the CA DOJ web page and I recall a lock requirement as well.

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by djbooya

I don't agree.. otherwise, TRAP couldn't make a single shot AR pistol that is considered "SSE2" compliant.. none of those receivers were dimensionally compliant when imported/shipped into CA...

What if that's what I wanted to build from a frame?

Are you licensed as a Type 07-FFL?
If you are, then you can legally do this (manufacturing a receiver into a handgun). Just like TARP.

[RLara]

Hey guys, please excuse my ignorance in all this. My goal was to take all the usable parts from my broken gun and put them on to a new frame. I know some parts would have to change to go from a Gen2 to a Gen3 build. But apparently it’s not as easy as that.

So what are my options? Could I buy a frame from Glock or do the California gun laws not allow me to bring any bare frame into the state. Librarian mentioned I could conceivably buy a frame “PPT”. Again, excuse my ignorance, what is a PPT and would this be a way I could legally get the Lone Wolf frame, or any frame?

I recently completed my first AR15 build and thought it would be the same as purchasing the bare lower receiver for AR. I was planning on doing all the work myself based on the confidence I gained building the AR.

[djbooya]

Originally Posted by Quiet

Are you licensed as a Type 07-FFL?
If you are, then you can legally do this (manufacturing a receiver into a handgun). Just like TARP.

What law prevents a consumer from building a legally compliant single shot pistol?

The issue is how said consumer gets a frame to do so which I outlined my theory of how I think it could be legal in the future. What PC about the roster addresses frames (it may be there and I don't know)?

Previously the main reasons people could not DROS frames was twofold:
1) roster issues
2) safe handling demo issues

I opine that #1 goes away if you intend to build a SSE compliant pistol, thus roster not applying

I opine that #2 goes away if DOJ says SHD are not required for frames or receivers or if you are already exempt (CCW holder, guard card firearm holder, etc...)

Nowhere do I understand an individual consumer has to hold an 07 FFL to build a SSE pistol otherwise 80% lower builds to AR pistols would be illegal, correct?

[djbooya]

Originally Posted by RLara

Hey guys, please excuse my ignorance in all this. My goal was to take all the usable parts from my broken gun and put them on to a new frame. I know some parts would have to change to go from a Gen2 to a Gen3 build. But apparently it’s not as easy as that.

So what are my options? Could I buy a frame from Glock or do the California gun laws not allow me to bring any bare frame into the state. Librarian mentioned I could conceivably buy a frame “PPT”. Again, excuse my ignorance, what is a PPT and would this be a way I could legally get the Lone Wolf frame, or any frame?

I recently completed my first AR15 build and thought it would be the same as purchasing the bare lower receiver for AR. I was planning on doing all the work myself based on the confidence I gained building the AR.

Right now it is debatable if you can get the frame (hence the discussion in this thread). I believe it will soon be possible. Others, based on current laws/previous knowledge believe otherwise.

In short, it's not as easy as AR builds due to the CA DOJ Roster complicating anything to do with a handgun. Nobody can tell you for sure if it will be legal and even if the opinion is that it will be you will need to find an FFL willing to transfer just the frame to you. You'll also need to take the risk that DOJ may choose to reject the DROS for whatever stupid reason they come up with.

In person Private Party Transfers (PPTs) get around this issue because those transactions are CA DOJ Roster exempt. There may or may not still be an issue how you would do the safe handling demo in that situation which would still need to be addressed until CA DOJ clarifies how that is supposed to happen. In theory the need to do a SHD on frames/receivers will go away (based on their Emergency Filing text they are preparing to make into law?)

Sorry, it is so complicated and hard to understand, but we live in CA and hopefully this helps to clarify some points. Others I'm sure will point out anywhere I may have misspoke as well.

[RLara]

Let me see if I’ve got this straight. There is no way to replace a, beyond repair, broken frame based on current California hand gun laws. So a piece of hardware, that is repairable by replacing that broken part cannot legally be done in California. All I can do now is try and sell the non broken pieces and go out and buy a new gun to replace it?

Excuse my rant, but this is situation is so frustrating me. So there is no legal way for me to repair my gun? Any legal “out of the box” way to do it. Librarian mentioned one could conceivably buy a frame from a PPT. But after reading Sky.Hawk’s post, the person I do the PPT with would have to be an out of state relative. So having a friend out of state with a frame then giving it to me can’t be done?

I can show the cracks in the frame to prove it’s broken and even willing to smash the broken frame to bits, in front of some legal entity to prove that it will not be used to make another gun.

[kemasa]

Yeah, that is basically the way it works.

Just having an out of state relative does not work since there is the issue of it being a straw purchase if the intent is to get it to you.

If a private party is selling what you are looking for, then you could buy it. Otherwise, you are SOL.

[keenkeen]

Originally Posted by RLara

Let me see if I’ve got this straight. There is no way to replace a, beyond repair, broken frame based on current California hand gun laws. So a piece of hardware, that is repairable by replacing that broken part cannot legally be done in California. All I can do now is try and sell the non broken pieces and go out and buy a new gun to replace it?

Excuse my rant, but this is situation is so frustrating me. So there is no legal way for me to repair my gun? Any legal “out of the box” way to do it. Librarian mentioned one could conceivably buy a frame from a PPT. But after reading Sky.Hawk’s post, the person I do the PPT with would have to be an out of state relative. So having a friend out of state with a frame then giving it to me can’t be done?

I can show the cracks in the frame to prove it’s broken and even willing to smash the broken frame to bits, in front of some legal entity to prove that it will not be used to make another gun.

But a used gen 2 via PPT in CA and then you will have extra parts to keep in running for many years...

Have a parent or child out of state gift you one...

Move...

That is about it.

[scarry scarney]

Have you checked into the possibility of returning the complete firearm to Glock for repair? You ship it directly to Glock via FedEx or UPS. They fix (or replace the frame) and return it back to you. If there is a serial number change (if they change the frame, the new frame will have a suffix of "a" at the end of the serial number, ie G123 is now G123a). Then you would "deregister" the old serial number, and "vol reg" your new serial number.

[scott_kart]

Have you contacted Glock about them replacing the frame and installing your other parts and then shipping it back to an FFL for you to DROS, it is roster compliant then.

[ugimports]

Originally Posted by scarry scarney

Have you checked into the possibility of returning the complete firearm to Glock for repair? You ship it directly to Glock via FedEx or UPS. They fix (or replace the frame) and return it back to you. If there is a serial number change (if they change the frame, the new frame will have a suffix of "a" at the end of the serial number, ie G123 is now G123a). Then you would "deregister" the old serial number, and "vol reg" your new serial number.

I did not see that "a" at the end of the serial number for a frame change for a customer I recently did a DROS for. Where did you get that from? Why would Glock create a custom serial number to replace a frame rather then just pick one up off the factory floor?

Also, you are wrong about the volreg... if the serial number changes it must go through an FFL. Not sure where you got that information from. I do not know a single manufacturer that will send back to owner if serial number changes. I've had several customers that sent their firearm back to manufacturer and when serial number changed they had it routed through me. The list I can remember off top of my head are:
1) Glock
2) Sig Sauer
3) Ruger
4) Smith & Wesson
5) Rock Island Armory (Armscor)

[cosmos7]

Originally Posted by RLara

Hey guys, please excuse my ignorance in all this. My goal was to take all the usable parts from my broken gun and put them on to a new frame. I know some parts would have to change to go from a Gen2 to a Gen3 build. But apparently it’s not as easy as that.

So what are my options? Could I buy a frame from Glock or do the California gun laws not allow me to bring any bare frame into the state. Librarian mentioned I could conceivably buy a frame “PPT”. Again, excuse my ignorance, what is a PPT and would this be a way I could legally get the Lone Wolf frame, or any frame?

Your best option is to just sell the upper and buy a new or used complete G22. You're going to save money over the frame-only route even if you buy a brand new gun, so why deal with the hassle?