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  #41  
Old 06-30-2021, 6:56 PM
Bunyfofu69 Bunyfofu69 is offline
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ttt


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Last edited by Bunyfofu69; 07-01-2021 at 10:43 AM..
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  #42  
Old 06-30-2021, 7:19 PM
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If I'm the OP, I'll wait for the small claim court and see what the judge have to say. Why shall I waste my time for someone who can't pass DROS?

Compensation must weight in during judges decision.
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  #43  
Old 06-30-2021, 7:36 PM
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I have the DROS seller copy.

He's sketchy. He even had the same firearm for sale here without it being in his possession. He deleted it now, but I already screenshot just in case. Caught him in a few other lies. Asked me to pick up gun and just give it to him since he wasnt denied.

Huge red flags. I just want this issue settled so I dont have to ever deal with him again. I even called him to offer him a refund. He refuses to answer. He's scared to talk on the phone because he was talking all lot of crap through text.

He paid mostly in cash and some through zelle from his wife's account. I told him I would refund his wife in person.

Wild.... I never had an issue with another calguner.

Last edited by johnthicc; 06-30-2021 at 7:43 PM..
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  #44  
Old 06-30-2021, 9:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnthicc View Post
Asked me to pick up gun and just give it to him since he wasnt denied.
Maybe the "new" FFL and him are close thus asking the gun in question to be ship to that "new" FFL. What a winner we have here now, those usually are Armslist deals.
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  #45  
Old 06-30-2021, 9:32 PM
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Could we get the buyer's username? I doubt anyone wants to sell or buy with a person asking to give firearms illegally.

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  #46  
Old 06-30-2021, 9:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garv View Post
He chose poorly, he should have selected an FFL that releases on undetermined.

That is not your fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S.O.A.R. View Post
Could we get the buyer's username? I doubt anyone wants to sell or buy with a person asking to give firearms illegally.

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Yes, once I think the matter is over, I will blast him on here. Want no one else to go through this.
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  #47  
Old 06-30-2021, 9:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunyfofu69 View Post
According to the OP there is no “contract” to oblige.

Buyer does not have the gun in his name. All he needs to do is walk into claims and file. AFS will show the seller as the owner. Seller’s own admission he took funds from the buyer.

Pretty black and white for claims court.

Moral obligation is not the same as legal obligation.


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The buyer owns the gun. He owned it the moment he handed over cash after the seller presented the item as described for inspection, relinquished it and signed away his interest on the DROS. At that moment the seller has fulfilled his end of the deal. At the same time, the buyer effectively represented himself as a legal, not-prohibited possessor when he handed over the cash and did the 4473 and the DROS.

The seller is under no obligation to make sure the buyer can possess this and in fact it is impossible for a seller to know that even if he wanted to. That is all on the buyer. A judge would laugh this right out of small claims court. If I was the seller I would dare the buyer to even try it.

It's like someone buying a car from you, then a month later finding out they can't get a driver's license and demanding you unwind the sale. Oh and by the way they had the car shipped off to some rando dealer.

This is 100% the buyer's problem, and 0% the seller's problem. The buyer doesn't get to involve the seller and his gun in a months long experiment to find out if he is a legal possessor and then just put it all on the seller when he finds out he cannot possess. He now owns it, whether he can possess it or not is of no concern to the seller.

Even without taking possession, the buyer has other remedies to dispose of what is now his property, including selling it to the FFL he had it transferred to, or having that FFL consign sale it out of state.
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 07-01-2021 at 9:20 PM..
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  #48  
Old 07-01-2021, 7:43 AM
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BTW: I've said this in other failed PPT threads.. I always recommend (and use this for my own personal PPTs) creating a bill of sale such as this: http://www.ugimports.com/docs/Privat...t_Template.doc

I have used this for the handful of PPTs I've done (3-4) and no legitimate buyer has any issue signing it.

Having this document puts this whole discussion to sleep and gives the seller piece of mind that any "terms" are explicit and agreed to up front.

Note: Attachment is a word document. I can make a PDF version available if you just want to browse (copy/paste) the content, but don't need to edit.
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Last edited by ugimports; 07-01-2021 at 7:58 AM.. Reason: added note
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  #49  
Old 07-01-2021, 9:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunyfofu69 View Post

Buyer has every right to walk into a PD and file a police report for the loss of funds.

He also has the right to walk into claims court.
Can you show me where the seller had the intent to deprive the buyer of either the gun or the money? If there is no intent there is no crime, end of story.

Theft in this state is a specific intent crime, meaning the buyer would have had to have the intent to to deprive the seller of either the gun or the cash. The cash was exchanged in a sale of the gun, no intent there legal transaction. The gun was delivered to a FFL as required by law. The buyer was unable to successfully clear a background check, not the sellers fault. In fact if the OP is accurate the seller did not learn of that wrinkle until after 30 days had passed. Anyone would have a very hard time convincing someone that the seller had any intent to commit theft of any kind here.

You're right he can go to small claims court, but there is no guarantee he would prevail. In fact I think based on what is in the OP, it would be very difficult for the buyer to get a judgement in his favor.

Based on what we know from the OP the buyer created this mess by having the gun shipped to a different FFL. The original FFL shares some of that by not contacting the seller after the buyer came back undetermined, and then compounded the issue by agreeing to ship the gun to a second FFL at the buyer's request.

I just can't see the buyer, as the harmed party here, especially when he owns this mess.
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  #50  
Old 07-01-2021, 9:15 AM
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Appreciate all the info.
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  #51  
Old 07-01-2021, 9:21 AM
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ttt

Last edited by Bunyfofu69; 07-01-2021 at 10:43 AM..
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  #52  
Old 07-01-2021, 9:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunyfofu69 View Post
The Genesis is not the initial Dros. That part is solid. But upon notification that legal possession could not be obtained by the buyer (through no fault of his own), the seller entered a scheme with intent to deprive the buyer of the funds.

Let’s throw in Wire Fraud in that as well using wire, radio or other digital communication to perpetrate the fraud.

Will a DA or AUSA pick it up? Probably not. But the Elements are there.


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Entered a scheme with intent to deprive?

I offered to complete another dros. I think that's a little far out there.
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  #53  
Old 07-01-2021, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnthicc View Post
Entered a scheme with intent to deprive?

I offered to complete another dros. I think that's a little far out there.

Yea I didn’t mean it in such a manner that your acting in bad faith. Attempts to rectify the situation, I’m sure we’re done.

It’s a matter of what the court sees that’s all.


Do what you gotta do!

Last edited by Bunyfofu69; 07-01-2021 at 10:44 AM..
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  #54  
Old 07-01-2021, 10:51 AM
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Out the FFL who shipped a PPT gun to another FFL!!!!!
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  #55  
Old 07-01-2021, 11:04 AM
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Does a PPT firearm get placed in the FFL Bound Book during initial transfer? If so, doesn't that mean by law the FFL is at 100% control of the firearm?

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  #56  
Old 07-01-2021, 2:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S.O.A.R. View Post
Does a PPT firearm get placed in the FFL Bound Book during initial transfer? If so, doesn't that mean by law the FFL is at 100% control of the firearm?

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Yes
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  #57  
Old 07-01-2021, 3:08 PM
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OP - If you want to help out this whining ungrateful buyer for free, its up to you but stand your ground in this deal is also righteous. Don't let going to small claims court as a headache, its like going to the dmv, not a big deal. If the FFL turns gun into LE, so be it, you sold the gun, buyer can't pass dros, you have not done anything illegal. People like to use the "small claims card" as tactics, and i have never heard a real small claims court story over a failed PPT. Anyone has any real experiences or know any case laws over OP situation to small claims court please speak up.
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  #58  
Old 07-01-2021, 4:04 PM
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After thinking about it, I'm going to stand firm on not giving refund. I will offer to complete dros.

The new FFL was actually very understanding of the situation and was willing to speak some sense to buyer.
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  #59  
Old 07-01-2021, 4:13 PM
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Please keep the updates going 0P, this is an interesting one.
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  #60  
Old 07-01-2021, 4:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garv View Post
Please keep the updates going 0P, this is an interesting one.
Start a gofundme for me if I go to court and lose.
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  #61  
Old 07-01-2021, 4:20 PM
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Buyers should be aware if they can pass dros or not. Always use ffl that releases on undetermined if possible.
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  #62  
Old 07-01-2021, 4:27 PM
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OP, walk away. you owe him nothing and have broken no laws. this idiot gonna hire a lawyer over a few hundred dollars? LOL, NOOOOPE!!
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  #63  
Old 07-01-2021, 4:40 PM
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How is the new FFL going to help you? They can't legally do the PPT with how it's logged into their book and how the firearm arrived.
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  #64  
Old 07-01-2021, 4:43 PM
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Can the buyer do anything to obtain the gun or get it sold at this point?
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  #65  
Old 07-01-2021, 4:49 PM
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When things all settle, please update the user name and the FFL that sent the gun. lots on here would like to know for future references.
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  #66  
Old 07-01-2021, 4:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
How is the new FFL going to help you? They can't legally do the PPT with how it's logged into their book and how the firearm arrived.
True. Sent to new FFL by/for the owner/buyer. He just needs to go to the FFL and pay the FFLs transfer/receiving fee and the DROS fee.
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  #67  
Old 07-01-2021, 4:52 PM
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Looks like the failure is on whoever had the firearm sent to another ffl. That queered the deal.
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  #68  
Old 07-01-2021, 5:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
Next time get the buyer to sign a letter that you charge a 50% return fee if they fail dros
But he didn't fail DROS, the issue here is that the FFL doesn't release on undetermined.
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  #69  
Old 07-01-2021, 5:13 PM
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MAN this is scary on multiple levels.
1. Neither asked about policy on undetermined. (Apparently from the comments a lot of you have no clue what that means.)
2. FFL A shipped to FFL B instead of returning it to the seller or re-DROSing it with buyer. WHAT?!?!
3. All the "If he can't pass a DROS" comments, lots of people who can pass a DROS get undetermined, just ask the guys at Turners gun counter guys.
4. Ive seen a specific gun come back undetermined even though the accompanying guns came back cleared on the same 4473 does that mean that this gun can't pass a background check?


OP, I wouldn't give him a refund either at this point. I would make sure all communications are written as well, and be very careful what and how you say things. I kinda of feel like the FFLs in question should be outed as well although the receiving FFL may have had no clue what he was receiving.
Hopefully you guys are able to get it squared away would be kind of funny but also annoying if he gets cleared this time around, but I've heard horror stories of Turners running people through 3 or 4 times.

Last edited by Russian Bot; 07-01-2021 at 5:20 PM..
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  #70  
Old 07-01-2021, 5:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnthicc View Post
Just need some advice. Not sure if I'm going crazy.

I did at PPT as a seller at FFL. The buyer comes back as undetermined but it passed the 30 days. FFL wouldnt release to him. After a month, the guy starts blowing up my phone. No call received from FFL.

I was willing to pick up firearm and go to his requested FFL that will release on undetermined, but he had the firearm shipped from FFL to his requested FFL. FFL was very annoyed with him, rightfully so.

I agreed to do the DROS again at his requested FFL, but he changed date to meet up multiple times and now all of a sudden he is asking for his money back.

He's all upset that I took his "money and never completed the transfer." He's saying I did something illegal by spending money before the "finalization of sale." Its been 2 months......... It was a lot of money so I dont want to leave him hanging, but at this point I'm getting fed up. He texts me late/early morning.

Not sure if he has a case asking for a refund, especially if the firearm is still technically under my name. I just want to do everything by the book.

Any advice?
I apologize, but being old, and extraordinarily dense (ask my wife), I often turn to the black law statute to try to understand the issues presented.

Allow me to muddle along....Please feel free to clarify and correct, as needed, but, please cite your authorities to help me learn.

Thanks. And, as Simon Cowell used to say on American Idol, "Off you go!"
Quote:
28050. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, in accordance with this chapter in order to comply with Section 27545.

(b) The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. {The gun must remain with the FFL.}

(c) The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with Section 27540. {Seems like the dealer's discretion on "undetermined" is overrun by the statute. That's not permissive language. If the transfer is "not prohibited", but is only "undetermined" it appears that the FFL must release. Interestingly, the DOJ recognizes only the following DROS statuses (scroll down): Delayed; Undetermined; Rejected; Denied. "Not Prohibited" doesn't exist . One can only surmise that the categories of "Delayed" and "Undetermined" constitute "Not Prohibited". }

(d) If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 26815 and 27540, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of Section 27500, 27505, 27515, 27520, 27525, 27530, or 27535. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county, who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 18000, 18005, and 34000.

(Added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. (SB 1080) Effective January 1, 2011. Operative January 1, 2012, by Sec. 10 of Ch. 711.)
-Why didn't the FFL release the gun? The statute seems to demand the gun be released.
-If the FFL believed they couldn't legally release, why didn't the gun go back to the seller, in accordance with the statute?
-Under what provisions of statute did the FFL agree to the failed transferee's request to ship the gun to another FFL? The statute demands that the FFL, "...shall retain possession." Instead, the FFL appears to have allowed the failed transferee to exercise control and dominion (whatever the heck that means) over the property of another, which might appear to be "possession".
-Certainly, the transfer of the gun to another FFL violates the demand that the original FFL retain possession?
////
On to the issue of who gets the cash.

The basic elements required for the agreement to be a legally enforceable contract are: mutual assent, expressed by a valid offer and acceptance; adequate consideration; capacity; and legality.

It would appear that everything works except the last entity...legality. The FFL won't release on "undetermined". However, the statute says they must (for PPT). The buyer cannot take possession of the firearm because the FFL must retain possession, yet the buyer exerted control of the firearm which should constitute possession, but, whatever.
The seller acted in good faith and completed all elements of the contract. The failure was that of the transferee, and the seller should be compensated for the transferee's breach of contract.

So, in my aged confusion of the facts, I would strongly suggest that the OP make all parties aware of their positions vis a vis the statute (the only one clean on this is FFL#2, and they should receive consideration from the failed transferee for their annoyance at the transfer) and agree to simply retrieve the firearm from FFL#2, and return the payment to the failed transferee (less 40% for research, compensation to FFL#2, because the failed transferee won't help, and resolution of the issue regarding the failed transferee's breach of contract) and move on with another sale.

Looking forward to the review.

Best.

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  #71  
Old 07-01-2021, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
... and agree to simply retrieve the firearm from FFL#2...

:
It is not possible to simply retrieve the firearm. Ffl 2 has no audit trail who the firearm belongs to. See my example above how this can be exploited.

When the ATF looks at his bound book and ask ffl 2 why they did not complete a background check on OP I don't think a response of 'he told me it was his' will work.

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  #72  
Old 07-02-2021, 6:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
It is not possible to simply retrieve the firearm. Ffl 2 has no audit trail who the firearm belongs to. See my example above how this can be exploited.

When the ATF looks at his bound book and ask ffl 2 why they did not complete a background check on OP I don't think a response of 'he told me it was his' will work.

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Dang. Down to the solution and whiffed.

Yeah, there is no “simple”, here.
That transfer between FFLs mucked things up.

I understand the DES records both the buyer and seller information for PPTs. That would set a record of the seller’s transaction…the rest was up to process by DOJ and the FFL and buyer.

With that, the OP could protect his position by (simply ) filing a “No Longer in Possession” form. Including the DROS/DES transaction identifier would enhance the submission, and establish a record that the OP fulfilled his part of the process.
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  #73  
Old 07-02-2021, 9:13 AM
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IANAL...

Quoting Dvrjon:

"The seller acted in good faith and completed all elements of the contract.". In this non-lawyer's opinion, the gun was delivered to the buyer's agent in accordance with the offer that had been made and accepted between the parties. That the buyer's agent refused to deliver to the buyer based on their internal policy is no concern of the seller. If there is a claim to be made, it would be against FFL#1 for:
1) - failing to deliver on undetermined [defense exists if this was made known to buyer in advance so that it became part of the agreement between the buyer and FFL#1];
2) - failure to follow the options available under regulation and statute after not delivering the gun [possible defense that they were just following the buyer's instructions, but really weak as they are in the FFL business and would be the presumed expert].

Did OP ever indicate whether this was a handgun? If so, is it on or off-roster? OP has only called it a "firearm" in his posts.

Good of him to try and continue to assist. I hope I would do the same, even after the buyer acting poorly in their texts.

IANAL...

Last edited by 1911-CV; 07-02-2021 at 9:44 AM..
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  #74  
Old 07-02-2021, 9:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
...With that, the OP could protect his position by (simply ) filing a “No Longer in Possession” form. Including the DROS/DES transaction identifier would enhance the submission, and establish a record that the OP fulfilled his part of the process.
Good call on this one. There's a specific part of the form where it says you've sold it to X individual. At that point I would think all strings to the OP / Seller are severed.
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  #75  
Old 07-02-2021, 5:21 PM
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My .05 cents on this is the buyer at this point is hosed, and the only real solution I see is FFL #2 sell it out of state ( assuming it is off roster).

Edit: actually that may not work either since FFL #2 can't prove who is the owner.
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Last edited by microwaveguy; 07-02-2021 at 5:23 PM..
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Old 07-02-2021, 6:08 PM
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Can FFL2 just send it back to FFL1 after contact verification?
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Old 07-03-2021, 6:54 AM
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OP, perhaps you should post whether the pistol is off-roster or not, to remove any speculation from the thread.
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Old 07-04-2021, 3:46 AM
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REALLY need to know whether it's long gun or handgun (and thus whether it is on or OFF roster). And who the "system" shows as the owner of the gun?

Seller completed his obligation. It ended when he signed the paperwork for the transfer - ANYTHING after that falls on the FFL's and the buyer. ANY demand that the seller return funds after the gun was relinquished into "the system" is groundless unless and until the gun is returned to him (legally).

Second FFL got stuck with a real "hot potato" if this is an off roster. First FFL shipped (in all aspects comparable to "released") the firearm on the buyers "request" (which is problematic if the firearm is still showing as registered to the SELLER, due to incomplete processing?). IMO this should have been cleared up BEFORE the gun went anywhere - whether released on undetermined to the buyer or shipped elsewhere.

I suspect that the "ownership" and trail of posession, while messy is not entirely incurable, but may require DOJ approvals to correct given the irregular moving around of the gun. <Deadpool pops in to "clean up the timeline">

Probably would be a good start to figure out whose name the gun is currently in - the seller or the buyer...? THEN figure out if the second FFL can clean up the paprework and sucessfully release to buyer, with any additional assistance from first FFL.


Frankly, this is just the sort of mess the current system creates - there is NO rational reason that a background check cannot be completed in real time, clearing a buyer for purchase (if they can do it for ammo....). The 10 day "cooling off" causes all kinds of hardship on law abiding citizens, including excessive travel, exposure to FFL errors, etc. "Nightmare" is exactly what "the system" was designed to create for gun owners and lawful gun ownership.

Hopefully this can get sorted and the buyer can "complete" the pickup of the gun and move on. Having recently dealt with a "FFL nightmare", as a seller, I did what I could to help the buyer complete the deal (FFL screwed up, made rediculous demands to correct THEIR error... after I stepped in, they backed down and found a simple easy solution...).
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Old 07-04-2021, 7:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB> View Post
REALLY need to know whether it's long gun or handgun (and thus whether it is on or OFF roster). And who the "system" shows as the owner of the gun?

Seller completed his obligation. It ended when he signed the paperwork for the transfer - ANYTHING after that falls on the FFL's and the buyer. ANY demand that the seller return funds after the gun was relinquished into "the system" is groundless unless and until the gun is returned to him (legally).

Second FFL got stuck with a real "hot potato" if this is an off roster. First FFL shipped (in all aspects comparable to "released") the firearm on the buyers "request" (which is problematic if the firearm is still showing as registered to the SELLER, due to incomplete processing?). IMO this should have been cleared up BEFORE the gun went anywhere - whether released on undetermined to the buyer or shipped elsewhere.

I suspect that the "ownership" and trail of posession, while messy is not entirely incurable, but may require DOJ approvals to correct given the irregular moving around of the gun. <Deadpool pops in to "clean up the timeline">

Probably would be a good start to figure out whose name the gun is currently in - the seller or the buyer...? THEN figure out if the second FFL can clean up the paprework and sucessfully release to buyer, with any additional assistance from first FFL.


Frankly, this is just the sort of mess the current system creates - there is NO rational reason that a background check cannot be completed in real time, clearing a buyer for purchase (if they can do it for ammo....). The 10 day "cooling off" causes all kinds of hardship on law abiding citizens, including excessive travel, exposure to FFL errors, etc. "Nightmare" is exactly what "the system" was designed to create for gun owners and lawful gun ownership.

Hopefully this can get sorted and the buyer can "complete" the pickup of the gun and move on. Having recently dealt with a "FFL nightmare", as a seller, I did what I could to help the buyer complete the deal (FFL screwed up, made rediculous demands to correct THEIR error... after I stepped in, they backed down and found a simple easy solution...).
Unfortunately your remarks are simply that of of person that doesn’t understand the law or how DOJ operates. The proof is in you thinking that DOJ actually does an instant background check for ammo tells all. Hint: DOJ doesn’t actually do an instant background check for ammo.

Last edited by taperxz; 07-04-2021 at 7:29 AM..
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  #80  
Old 07-04-2021, 7:43 AM
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Lots of ffls do not. Turners is largest example. Is the sellers handgun off roster? If so then ffl and buyer fkd up.
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