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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: With the latest 1/22/2022 Front Sight Restructuring, are you going to:
Stay on as a member and pay all the new fees 6 4.96%
Let my membership lapse and do nothing else. 53 43.80%
Join a class action lawsuit against Front Sight 51 42.15%
Other: explain what you are doing in a post 11 9.09%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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  #281  
Old 01-28-2022, 5:58 PM
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Please lighten up on attacking other people. Not going to do any good, will not make any situation better. please...... several posts all the same.
Don't feed the trolls. Put him on your ignore list so you don't have to deal with his useless and repetitive drivel.
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  #282  
Old 01-28-2022, 7:46 PM
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Not sure why the absolute 180 degree about face, but if I do NOT use my tin foil hat, I have a feeling there are a LOT of senior folks closer to Dr. P who let him have it. Possibly, yae probably, in unison.

Maybe he is doing the "Great Reset", maybe he is scamming again at the new level, but at least my crap is intact for now. Be nice to have a bit more than I do now, but at least things are more status quo.
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  #283  
Old 01-28-2022, 8:16 PM
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Not sure why the absolute 180 degree about face, but if I do NOT use my tin foil hat, I have a feeling there are a LOT of senior folks closer to Dr. P who let him have it. Possibly, yae probably, in unison.

Maybe he is doing the "Great Reset", maybe he is scamming again at the new level, but at least my crap is intact for now. Be nice to have a bit more than I do now, but at least things are more status quo.
I am really interested if Rick Green, Knight #2 after Brad Ackman will be back.
He canceled all his Constitutional courses for the year.

https://www.patriotacademy.com/const...efense-course/

Last edited by acegunnr; 01-28-2022 at 8:25 PM..
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  #284  
Old 01-28-2022, 8:18 PM
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for He, do you men Rick Green concealed the courses or Piazza?
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  #285  
Old 01-28-2022, 8:48 PM
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I didn't know this, but Bill Cookston is out.

The Great Purge...
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  #286  
Old 01-28-2022, 8:49 PM
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Don't feed the trolls. Put him on your ignore list so you don't have to deal with his useless and repetitive drivel.
Funny, I have added a couple of names to my ignore list too.
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  #287  
Old 01-28-2022, 8:52 PM
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Everyone who is a current FS member has a vested interest in seeing FS continue (at minimum) and grow (best case). The old timers that bought in early and paid large sums of money did get ripped off because Iggy couldn't deliver on his promises. That happened and should be a warning to everyone else the kind of guy he is and what could/will be repeated. The newer members (say from a decade ago onward) got a great deal from FS if all they did was buy a free training for life membership from another member. There is no denying the value that many have realized from that. Then there are old/new members who voluntarily bought into the upgrades. Some of those deals maybe worked out for the members, but most was based on empty promises. Maybe they didn't know Iggy's past, maybe they did and hoped things would be different now.

I completely acknowledge those that want nothing to do with FS because of their fraudulent business practices. However there are two things that also can't be ignored:

1) There are members who did/do indeed get more out of the training than the money they paid to receive it. Just because that was made possible by the old timers, doesn't change the fact realized by the new comers. The longer the old timers can continue to train at FS, the more their original costs are recouped. I know FS people who have literally taken over a hundred days of training over the years. How much is that worth? At $100/day that would be $10k.

2) It is not fair to call those that want to continue taking advantage of their good deal immoral. The reality is what it is. If a store offered you steak for $1/lbs, even when you knew it's cheap because it was sold to the previous customer for $10/lbs, would you buy it? Yes, we vote with our wallet and some do so out of principle, but the kicker is this...

The irony that I see many here not realizing is members that are just taking classes and not buying into his marketing BS are making FS lose money. So if you really want to see FS go down out of principle, you should be preaching for more new members who won't fall for his BS offers. Then if/when he tries to cancel all past promises and breach terms, promote taking legal action. We don't know if Iggy did this as simply another long planned fraudulent scheme to squeeze money out of members, or if he realized the serious legal jeopardy he was going to face. In one scenario he's an immoral genius, in the other he's a demented idiot. A combination is also possible.
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  #288  
Old 01-28-2022, 9:19 PM
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The newer members who got memberships for $100 have chosen to convince themselves and claim to naysayers that the members who paid tens of thousands of dollars are "just happy to see someone else get a good deal" and not unhappy that they were ripped off. That frees the new members to feel ok supporting a con man. That's their justification.
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  #289  
Old 01-28-2022, 9:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SG29736 View Post
The newer members who got memberships for $100 have chosen to convince themselves and claim to naysayers that the members who paid tens of thousands of dollars are "just happy to see someone else get a good deal" and not unhappy that they were ripped off. That frees the new members to feel ok supporting a con man. That's their justification.
And why couldn't it be both? Who sold the newer members the membership? The old timers. By doing so they recouped a tiny fraction of their original payment, and promoted the growth of FS with new memberships, knowing full well of FS's business model. So who's the bad guy again?

Again, how does supporting a con man work out if the member got more training value than what he paid for the membership?
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  #290  
Old 01-28-2022, 9:30 PM
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I agree with Citizen B. The fact remains that no matter how much advantage we take of his school, those members that got conned still got conned. The "un-conned" ones are not making the situation any worse. Dealing with Naish, you just have to be smarter than him.

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  #291  
Old 01-28-2022, 10:05 PM
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All I can say is that if all existing members, maybe commander or, higher could pay $100 a year for membership, I'd be down. (somebody said this would bring in ~$26M) Year after year, this should be plenty of money.

Anyone lower than commander would pay a little more. And more and more if you're lower but, not more than $300 a year.

If you're brand new, well, I feel sorry for you.
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  #292  
Old 01-28-2022, 11:33 PM
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Wait- I am causing iggy's and thus the original member's woes because I didn't buy in on the scheme AND I actually used my membership?

The original members (not sure if these are pre or post 1st iggy fleecing) didn't just buy firearm training, they bought into a scheme where they could potentially profit and/or obtain status and perks in iggyland. These original members happily sold memberships to new members at a price they set, likely reducing the nut of their membership thus profiting to some degree off of these new members. The more they upgraded, the more memberships they got to sell to new members as well as amassing more credits to spend in iggyland. 15 years ago so many of these original members were selling memberships that they really weren't worth very much money and could be found easily, even on ebay thus turning the range itself into a loss leader that supported the scheme.

However, some like myself, who wanted firearm training and not a condo, gold stars nor memberships to sell, bought these memberships from said original members at the member's set price, and actually used the membership for firearm training. Now I always figured there wouldn't be any room for me on xenu's ship but I sure enjoyed myself and I didn't mean to cause anyone harm.

I do have to admit that I thought him harmless until his recent scam as it was clearly meant to defraud people.

FS may restructure or even go silent for a bit but Iggy has his medium and his followers so he isn't going anywhere.

Last edited by Mezcalfud; 01-28-2022 at 11:35 PM..
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  #293  
Old 01-29-2022, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Citizen_B View Post
Everyone who is a current FS member has a vested interest in seeing FS continue (at minimum) and grow (best case). The old timers that bought in early and paid large sums of money did get ripped off because Iggy couldn't deliver on his promises. That happened and should be a warning to everyone else the kind of guy he is and what could/will be repeated. The newer members (say from a decade ago onward) got a great deal from FS if all they did was buy a free training for life membership from another member. There is no denying the value that many have realized from that. Then there are old/new members who voluntarily bought into the upgrades. Some of those deals maybe worked out for the members, but most was based on empty promises. Maybe they didn't know Iggy's past, maybe they did and hoped things would be different now.

I completely acknowledge those that want nothing to do with FS because of their fraudulent business practices. However there are two things that also can't be ignored:

1) There are members who did/do indeed get more out of the training than the money they paid to receive it. Just because that was made possible by the old timers, doesn't change the fact realized by the new comers. The longer the old timers can continue to train at FS, the more their original costs are recouped. I know FS people who have literally taken over a hundred days of training over the years. How much is that worth? At $100/day that would be $10k.

2) It is not fair to call those that want to continue taking advantage of their good deal immoral. The reality is what it is. If a store offered you steak for $1/lbs, even when you knew it's cheap because it was sold to the previous customer for $10/lbs, would you buy it? Yes, we vote with our wallet and some do so out of principle, but the kicker is this...

The irony that I see many here not realizing is members that are just taking classes and not buying into his marketing BS are making FS lose money. So if you really want to see FS go down out of principle, you should be preaching for more new members who won't fall for his BS offers. Then if/when he tries to cancel all past promises and breach terms, promote taking legal action. We don't know if Iggy did this as simply another long planned fraudulent scheme to squeeze money out of members, or if he realized the serious legal jeopardy he was going to face. In one scenario he's an immoral genius, in the other he's a demented idiot. A combination is also possible.
I completely agree with what you're saying, but there is one sticking point that many have mentioned: Dr. P has to give up control of FS. I agree with the view that he played a game for these many years, but like a Ponzi scheme, he ran out of enough new money to take care of the old promises.

I do NOT want to see FS gone. I've learned a lot and like others, have met many nice people. But the business model must change and the absolute control Dr. P has got must be relinquished or taken from him. He has NOT acted in the best interests of his own creation. I believe as many have said that he may have actually taken advantage, using FS money to fund his real estate empire.

FS is not losing money because of people not buying into this "restructuring". It's losing money because Dr. P is not a business man out to make FS greater.

Bottom line: Dr. P must NOT be permitted to continue in a position of power at FS. Or else this will continue.
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  #294  
Old 01-29-2022, 1:47 AM
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If a friend said they were considering doing business with an outfit with FS track record you'd advise them to go for it? Why are there so many discussions about this or that gunstore who operates in a dishonest way and so many people will emphatically proclaim that, by god, they'd never do business with them on general moral principles. Why do those principles disappear when it comes to doing business with FS? It just demonstrates where some people draw the line I guess.
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  #295  
Old 01-29-2022, 5:19 AM
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Hah, and from last nights email the restructuring isn't going to happen.

Instead, any money people gave him for maintenance fees gets put back into their account as Front Sight Bucks. Maintenance fees are no longer a thing, daily fees are no longer a thing. He says his shops charge retail for stuff. I didn't happen to see anything in the email about no longer having to buy your ammo from him, so I guess you still have to do that.

So, it turns out this was a scare tactic cash grab to raise capital for something by getting people to buy into his maintenance and membership transfer pyramid scheme and returning that actual money to them as Front Sight bucks. Likewise a scare tactic to tell everyone who has never, or rarely gone; that he can pull the rug out from under them at any time so they better show up and take a class to get their money's worth (oh, and buy his ammo).

Edit to add: all the people who paid their monthly maintenance fee already literally get a gold star in their account.
I agree so now your lifetime membership is pay as you go. You now pay the same amount (actually more) to go there as the 3 and 4 day passes you sold to people. He scared every one (who cares) by cancelling your life time memberships only to change it to pay as you go so you would say well at least its not as bad as it could be. If you cannot see that you were manipulated by a master deceiver, liar and thief then drink the cool aid. I won't and I was saying this was going to happen more than 4 years ago only to be called names and laughed at. Personal attacks, I was even given the name 5 o'clock Charly as I was so regular with my posts. If you fall for his latest scam you are fools, I am not calling every one a fool, in the last 6 or so posts many agreed with me. But those of you saying this is not unreasonable are fools your life time member ship is now pay as you go. Those of you who talk about how you got your moneys worth from your $100 life time membership so you do not care, did not build FS, people like I did with our thousands we spent. Making obvious comment's is not attacking people if this strikes a nerve with you it should if the shoe fits. I am not the only one who feels as I do. I am just the loudest.
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  #296  
Old 01-29-2022, 5:24 AM
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Default *NEW* Front Sight Members Check-In Here!

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Originally Posted by TeamAllen View Post
for He, do you men Rick Green concealed the courses or Piazza?

Rick Green will no longer do the constitutional defense courses at FS. There were some pending courses and people can still do the 2 or 4 day course part of it but Green will not be there. He’s offered to pay the extra feed for those who registered and still wanted to do it.

Patriot Academy has done its Constitutional Defense course for 4 years at Front Sight and now they are figuring out how to do them in the future. They might select an alternate venue or do regional ones.

From his video this week, the long term goal is to do handgun defense training at the Patriot Academy campus, ib think it’s likely to be in TX, once that is completed.

He did update about the on-hold status of the restructuring, but for more 2022 classes are still canceled.

Video is below.

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Last edited by PogoJack; 01-29-2022 at 5:29 AM..
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  #297  
Old 01-29-2022, 6:05 AM
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Survey number 1 just went out. Survey number 2 will be sent tomorrow. I'm so tired of his relentless emails and tactics.
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  #298  
Old 01-29-2022, 6:20 AM
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I was given a lifetime membership for Christmas. It looked like from the email I got that they/piazza paid the 100 transfer fee. I had heard that they did some aggressive marketing and it was kinda like those time share sales tactics so I used my “extra” email address and a google phone number. I r,remember seeing ads from them way back in the day and there is something very suspicious to me about a guy that wants his own picture in your face all the time. Comes off as an oily salesman.

Anyways, I was happy about my gift as my brother is also supposed to have this lifetime membership now(he bought them from an aunt I believe who had a bunch) and will get to take classes w him.

Can you guys just give me a heads up on where to expect the hidden costs? Having to buy ammo is a big deal since I load so buying hurts. Anything else? I have no problem paying a fair price for good training.

Red
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  #299  
Old 01-29-2022, 6:21 AM
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Survey number 1 just went out. Survey number 2 will be sent tomorrow. I'm so tired of his relentless emails and tactics.

That survey isn’t fair. They ask two questions that allude to financial issues of FS and then:

[quote]

Question #4: Considering these facts, do you agree that some immediate changes need to be made in Front Sight's policies, procedures, and fees to defeat the enemies attempting to destroy Front Sight, and ensure Front Sight operates successfully for generations to come?
[/youtube]


I do agree some changes need to be made, but how do I know Iggy isn’t going to take my voting “Yes” on this question won’t be distorted into “Our members overwhelmingly agree to $600 per member annual maintenance fee plus range fees.”?
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  #300  
Old 01-29-2022, 6:22 AM
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I just received the promised survey. The title does provide a hint as to what is to come. It is not listed as "the survey", but as "survey #1" How many more are coming?

On first reading the survey is simply an exercise in promoting propaganda.

Survey questions are poorly but craftily worded two or three part questions. It is very possible to answer one part of the survey question one way and a different part of the question an other way.

Yet none of the questions deal with the real issue.

As has been noted none of that really counts. It's who writes the survey and who tallies the results that count.

My prediction: Tomorrow Dr charlatan will express with great emotion his undying love and support for the overwhelming support received from the members who have vowed to stand with him.
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  #301  
Old 01-29-2022, 6:30 AM
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Originally Posted by VolvoWrench View Post
All I can say is that if all existing members, maybe commander or, higher could pay $100 a year for membership, I'd be down. (somebody said this would bring in ~$26M) Year after year, this should be plenty of money.

Anyone lower than commander would pay a little more. And more and more if you're lower but, not more than $300 a year.

If you're brand new, well, I feel sorry for you.
Point is regardless of level of membership it was sold as a life membership with no extra fees.

Changing the terms on the fly is fraud at worst, bait and switch at best and I think both are illegal.

I always thought it was a Ponzi scheme as I did not see the model sustainable and once Covid hit and people slowed down/stopped traveling the number of new memberships to keep the thing going must have slowed down considerably.
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Old 01-29-2022, 6:41 AM
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I voted the first one yes then subsequent 2-4 no. I don't know about his legal battles or the enemies trying to steal FrontSight because he's about as transparent as a glass of milk.

He's telegraphing the outcome in his statement about how twice as many "Gold Star" members paid dues and thanked him for the membership fees compared to members who wrote and called unhappy with the restructuring.
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  #303  
Old 01-29-2022, 6:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam1234 View Post
I just received the promised survey. The title does provide a hint as to what is to come. It is not listed as "the survey", but as "survey #1" How many more are coming?

On first reading the survey is simply an exercise in promoting propaganda.

Survey questions are poorly but craftily worded two or three part questions. It is very possible to answer one part of the survey question one way and a different part of the question an other way.

Yet none of the questions deal with the real issue.

As has been noted none of that really counts. It's who writes the survey and who tallies the results that count.

My prediction: Tomorrow Dr charlatan will express with great emotion his undying love and support for the overwhelming support received from the members who have vowed to stand with him.
You summed it up way better than I was trying to. Propaganda and b.s. questions that don't mean anything but promoting his agenda.

And how do we know any of the statements or "facts" he has quoted in the survey are even true?

Dude needs to go and get pushed out (along with all the upper management there) and a real restructuring take place since he has already proven he is mentally unstable to run the place and is an awful business man. He should be asking us question like that, whether or not we think he's stable enough to continue running this business, not these ego-stroking questions that lead you to answer in a pre-determined way so he can come back later and use those answers against us.
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  #304  
Old 01-29-2022, 6:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Manofmayhem View Post
I voted the first one yes then subsequent 2-4 no. I don't know about his legal battles or the enemies trying to steal FrontSight because he's about as transparent as a glass of milk.

He's telegraphing the outcome in his statement about how twice as many "Gold Star" members paid dues and thanked him for the membership fees compared to members who wrote and called unhappy with the restructuring.
Isn't it funny how he initially blamed all of us for the restructuring because not enough of us "heeded the call", then he walked that one back. But now all of a sudden he's claiming that way more than expected have sent him money AFTER he essentially sealed the fate of the place and told us we all suck? That makes ZERO sense right there.

It's time for Dr. Pizza to pack it in and move on. If he REALLY cared about the future of the place he'd resign, but he won't because he doesn't care about the employees and members he's screwed over and he will never admit that the FS is in it's current state because of his dumb decisions. He just cares about himself and his ego is too big to admit he's the sole reason for what's happening right now.
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  #305  
Old 01-29-2022, 6:59 AM
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Some of these posts sound like it's iggy himself- "we have a vested interest", "everyone should pay but some more than others", and so on. We are surrounded by the faithful, happily espousing Iggy's ideals! What is with all this devotion to the mother ship? You bought into a scheme vs just a gun range.

"Do not try and bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth …
There is no spoon. Then you’ll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.”

I am not willing to pay more for any reason, and if you think you should then man has he got an offer for you.

I keep checking in here as Iggy goes to my spam but this is silly and a bit sad.

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  #306  
Old 01-29-2022, 7:49 AM
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I would like qualify a term "knights of the crooked table" I have been using. I do not mean those who have a knight level membership are crooked. My intent was to show that the table is not as advertised it is not round with all those seated as equals with knight #1 (Dr charlatan). The table is in reality another part of the con and has no relationship to honor or good character. Hence my term "crooked table".

So I do apologize if my wording was taken as a derogatory statement against all people with knight memberships.

PS: I can't tell you how close I was to buying into that last offer to buy a knight membership!
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  #307  
Old 01-29-2022, 8:18 AM
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Iggy Survey #1 - what a joke!


self serving.jpg


Once again, there still is no transparency, no opening of the books, no good faith changes in management attitude or operation. Instead, it is a funneling of the FS masses towards a predetermined or desired outcome.

This is still not the way...
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  #308  
Old 01-29-2022, 9:32 AM
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If a friend said they were considering doing business with an outfit with FS track record you'd advise them to go for it? Why are there so many discussions about this or that gunstore who operates in a dishonest way and so many people will emphatically proclaim that, by god, they'd never do business with them on general moral principles. Why do those principles disappear when it comes to doing business with FS? It just demonstrates where some people draw the line I guess.
I understand what you’re saying. I don’t disagree, but I also think you’ve framed the issue incorrectly. I’ve brought friends and family to FS. I did so because I think it’s good for them to be proficient with firearms at an extremely cheap price. Before we go, I tell them all about FS’s marketing strategy and their shady history. I tell them explicitly not to buy an offer without speaking with me first. In this arrangement, they can make their own fully informed decision of what do to.

Regarding the morality aspect specifically:

- The crimes of the past are done. We cannot punish those in the present for what other people did in the past.

- You are treating FS’s business model incorrectly. “Doing business” with FS isn’t the same as doing business with a gun store. In the normal business world, when you purchase something from a store, the store makes some profit. As I and others have repeatedly tried to explain, it’s possible a new member gets a better deal out of it than FS. Becoming a member of FS isn’t the same as supporting a normal business in the real world.

Look I get how this all seems f’d up. That latest offer for private training for $2k was tempting and I almost did it. What stopped me is knowing he could/would change the terms as soon as it didn’t serve his purpose anymore. If I had purchased that upgrade a month ago and he pulled this BS, I’d be raving mad. Pissed at him, but also myself because I decided to take the chance. That’s the situation we’re all in. We’re dealing with a scammer. That doesn’t mean we can’t try to make the best of the situation and come out ahead.
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Old 01-29-2022, 10:00 AM
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On my last trip to FS( about a year ago) I saw something that really turned me off. My son and I went to the classroom at lunch because I wanted him to see the video on the “defensive color code”. Before they started the video they made a big announcement and brought some members up on stage. It was a “Knighting ceremony”. It was so awkward and cringeworthy. My son (who’s 26) looked at me and said WTF?! We had a hard time not laughing out loud! But the new “Knights” were so proud it was creepy. One was spotted wearing his sword later that day. We learned from our instructor that these first knights paid about $10000. These people really drank the Koolaid.

This kind of cult like shenanigan really cheapens the whole experience. There really needs to be a “reset” of FS. It needs to start with Iggy stepping away and start running it like a business and less like a cult/timeshare. IDGAF if the “resort” is ever finished. Keep the current facility like it is, pave the road, add another restroom and call it good!
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Old 01-29-2022, 10:02 AM
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I didn't know this, but Bill Cookston is out.

The Great Purge...
He's been out well before all this restructuring started.
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Old 01-29-2022, 10:02 AM
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If a friend said they were considering doing business with an outfit with FS track record you'd advise them to go for it?
Yes, I have and would advise them to go for the training and ignore all the BS emails about condos and names on a wall. Benefit from the training and disconnect from mass marketing.

You are making it sound like an absolute, FS is either good or bad and you are either good or bad for supporting FS. FS is a contradiction, stuck somewhere in the middle.

Decent training with a meat head running the show.
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Old 01-29-2022, 10:03 AM
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On my last trip to FS( about a year ago) I saw something that really turned me off. My son and I went to the classroom at lunch because I wanted him to see the video on the “defensive color code”. Before they started the video they made a big announcement and brought some members up on stage. It was a “Knighting ceremony”. It was so awkward and cringeworthy. My son (who’s 26) looked at me and said WTF?! We had a hard time not laughing out loud! But the new “Knights” were so proud it was creepy. One was spotted wearing his sword later that day. We learned from our instructor that these first knights paid about $10000. These people really drank the Koolaid.

This kind of cult like shenanigan really cheapens the whole experience. There really needs to be a “reset” of FS. It needs to start with Iggy stepping away and start running it like a business and less like a cult/timeshare. IDGAF if the “resort” is ever finished. Keep the current facility like it is, pave the road, add another restroom and call it good!
This.
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Old 01-29-2022, 10:06 AM
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I completely agree with what you're saying, but there is one sticking point that many have mentioned: Dr. P has to give up control of FS. I agree with the view that he played a game for these many years, but like a Ponzi scheme, he ran out of enough new money to take care of the old promises.

I do NOT want to see FS gone. I've learned a lot and like others, have met many nice people. But the business model must change and the absolute control Dr. P has got must be relinquished or taken from him. He has NOT acted in the best interests of his own creation. I believe as many have said that he may have actually taken advantage, using FS money to fund his real estate empire.

FS is not losing money because of people not buying into this "restructuring". It's losing money because Dr. P is not a business man out to make FS greater.

Bottom line: Dr. P must NOT be permitted to continue in a position of power at FS. Or else this will continue.
That's the correct and only the correct answer. The more we try to fathom how to continue under Pizza's leadership as it's called, the more Pizza can continue as king of the con men. Do not play into his psycho hand.
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Last edited by -hanko; 01-29-2022 at 10:54 AM..
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  #314  
Old 01-29-2022, 10:10 AM
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I understand what you’re saying. I don’t disagree, but I also think you’ve framed the issue incorrectly. I’ve brought friends and family to FS. I did so because I think it’s good for them to be proficient with firearms at an extremely cheap price. Before we go, I tell them all about FS’s marketing strategy and their shady history. I tell them explicitly not to buy an offer without speaking with me first. In this arrangement, they can make their own fully informed decision of what do to.

Regarding the morality aspect specifically:

- The crimes of the past are done. We cannot punish those in the present for what other people did in the past.

- You are treating FS’s business model incorrectly. “Doing business” with FS isn’t the same as doing business with a gun store. ...Becoming a member of FS isn’t the same as supporting a normal business in the real world.

Look I get how this all seems f’d up.....That doesn’t mean we can’t try to make the best of the situation and come out ahead.
This^^
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Old 01-29-2022, 10:24 AM
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All I can say is that if all existing members, maybe commander or, higher could pay $100 a year for membership, I'd be down. (somebody said this would bring in ~$26M) Year after year, this should be plenty of money.

Anyone lower than commander would pay a little more. And more and more if you're lower but, not more than $300 a year.

If you're brand new, well, I feel sorry for you.
The$26M general figure came from me, but that was based on EVERY membership contributing $100 per year. No tiers or "lower levels paying more". That is mainly because some paid fully for their high memberships, and some paid $100-$400 or so for theirs.

To the naysayers saying that they have this free lifetime membership, yet say that they will sue to keep doing it for free:

I state for the record what he did was not right. What he did was dumb and there is no way that this was not a Ponzi scheme of sorts. His restructuring fee schedule was ludicrous and guaranteed to finish FS for good if enacted.

But does anyone seriously expect that FS can continue if everyone gets exactly what he promised? NO. FS will die a relatively quick, but very painful death. Some free while some pay? How is that different from what Dr. P did?

This is why $100 per year across the board is fair, but it comes with a caveat: Dr. Piazza MUST step down, give up control and voting rights. A reasonable retirement because he founded the place, but he gets nothing further from it.

If the "Foundation" that I suggested in other posts is established, and through proper long term investment and capital growth through a recognized, licensed and established financial firm, grows in value so that it becomes self-sustaining, then...only then...should the Council of FrontSight (I use that term for lack of a better one...no one person will control FS from now on) even consider removing the $100 fee.

If you're worried about the instructors and staff during the growth of the Foundation to self sustaining status, then take it from the funds generated and it will just take a little longer to build. The math is VERY EASY:

Total expenses to run FS for 1 year = X
Foundation yearly contributions to build for self sustainment= Y
Number of memberships = 263,322 (from the email)
NOTE: Should not take more than 4 - 5 years to achieve self sufficiency

(X + Y) / 263,322 = $$ per member per year

Oh...BTW: transparency is key: Show us the books publicly. Show Dr. P out of power and publish controlling agency.

This is just an idea...it can be fleshed out, of course, but if you think that suing FS for whatever you put into it is going to yield anything, all he has to do is file BK and you will get nothing. Why send it to its death when all we need are a few fixes? And yes...everyone gives up a little money to keep it solvent.

I do want to address those that think there is anything free in life...come on: you're all adults. You KNEW that wasn't going to stand and a court is not going to give that to you or us. The only thing we'll get is FS going under and at that point...none of us have anything. You can argue that it is exactly what you paid for, but that would be a specious and stupid argument. Those of you who paid 4 and 5 figures for your membership should be getting behind this type of change rather than demanding this "free for life" thing Iggy knew he could not sustain. Many have gone multiple times, so you folks got your money's worth. I didn't pay 5 figures for mine, but I also haven't gone much. I got my money's worth and $100 year is an exceedingly good value to keep what I have. If you paid 5 figures and just never made the time to go, then that's on you. Sorry...cold hard fact.
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Old 01-29-2022, 10:26 AM
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Some people would draw the line at the point of not supporting a con man who has ripped others off repeatedly even if they themselves feel they have not been ripped off. Because they wouldn't have received their deal without the others being conned. This is similar to the concept of playing sports building character in people. It actually only reveals it.
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Old 01-29-2022, 10:35 AM
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Some people would draw the line at the point of not supporting a con man who has ripped others off repeatedly even if they themselves feel they have not been ripped off. Because they wouldn't have received their deal without the others being conned. This is similar to the concept of playing sports building character in people. It actually only reveals it.
No, you don’t get to pass that kind of moral judgement on newer members. I’ve already tried to explain the difference with the word “support”, which you haven’t refuted yet. I think we’re going in circles here so we’ll have to agree to disagree, but I have one question:

An earlier FS member sold me my membership. He made some money on it. He knew all about FS. Is he more or less morally reprehensible than me? Are you condemning all FS members as morally corrupt?
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Old 01-29-2022, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by SG29736 View Post
If a friend said they were considering doing business with an outfit with FS track record you'd advise them to go for it? Why are there so many discussions about this or that gunstore who operates in a dishonest way and so many people will emphatically proclaim that, by god, they'd never do business with them on general moral principles. Why do those principles disappear when it comes to doing business with FS? It just demonstrates where some people draw the line I guess.
Thats what I cannot understand either, me and all the others who paid thousands into FS for lifetime memberships years ago built FS. You who bought $100 life time memberships did not. But the attitude from the hundred buckers is I got my moneys worth so I do not care who got screwed? This is antisocial at the least and really sad to me. So you still have to pay the $50 month and $75 a day per person Husband/wife or how about a family of 4 or 6 how much will cost? But the real deal this is not what we signed up for. We were swindled by a liar in chief. I would suggest you not say that you do not care because you got your any more on this thread because you will get berated for saying that as you should.
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Old 01-29-2022, 11:00 AM
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Thats what I cannot understand either, me and all the others who paid thousands into FS for lifetime memberships years ago built FS. You who bought $100 life time memberships did not. But the attitude from the hundred buckers is I got my moneys worth so I do not care who got screwed? This is antisocial at the least and really sad to me. So you still have to pay the $50 month and $75 a day per person Husband/wife or how about a family of 4 or 6 how much will cost? But the real deal this is not what we signed up for. We were swindled by a liar in chief. I would suggest you not say that you do not care because you got your any more on this thread because you will get berated for saying that as you should.
We were definitely deceived by THE liar in chief. That said, is it logical to keep Pizza going?

If you say "yes", I'll assume that you think Pizza has changed his stripes, and that's not possible. He's been a liar and psychotic leader since he started FS in California...read up a little more on Scientology and how it works.
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Old 01-29-2022, 11:16 AM
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The recent survey questions are leading and can result in the desired responses that can be manipulate. Not a good survey to see input from the members.
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