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  #1  
Old 11-07-2019, 4:08 PM
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Default PCC .40 Carbine at Front Sight.

Just got back from a trip to Front Sight with my Ruger PCC.40 Carbine.

The gun performed well, and it is now officially Broken In.

.40 caliber holes are much easier to see on a target than .22 sized holes.

Controlled pairs are easy to get off as are head shots. My bore to sight offset is <1" at 7-15 yards dead on at 25. My sight in group 5 shots at 50 yards off a rest was <1.5" with a Red Dot Optic.

I used all 4 of my Glock 22 round mags, and I had one that would stovepipe a round every so often (it now has a big X on it) but once I figured out how to lock the bolt open with my left thumb (thanks Mr. Reid) I was good to go and could run the gun as fast or faster than any of the AR's in the class.

The class had 22 people with 1 AK, my gun, and the rest AR's. I had to fight Management a little to get in the class and they said I couldn't take the test with the gun. Then I found out they were letting M1 CArbines in the class and I made a stink big time.

The .40 S&W out of a 16" bbl has 2.5X the Knockdown Power (TKO) of the .30 cal Carbine, and even 9mm rounds are almost 1.5X TKO over the .30 Carbine..

I sent a note to Piazza about this and will share it when he responds. Too many of these guns out there to ignore just because they are "Pistol Caliber" If that's the case then my Marlin 1894 in .44 Magnum would be kept out as well. and since the farthest we shot was 100 yards I see no reason why these guns should be excluded.

All the instructors were interested in and duly impressed with the gun and I am hoping for some movement from Management.

I burned up about 300 rounds in the 3 days we were in that class, then we went to a shotgun class for another two days.

A great time was had by all. You guys should go, as the weather is Perfect right now.

Randy
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Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 11-07-2019 at 4:20 PM..
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Old 11-07-2019, 4:25 PM
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30 carbine

Brand Projectile 3-Shot Average 5-Shot Average
Hornady 110 grain FTX 1895 feet per sec. 1844 feet per sec.
Privi Partizan 110 gr FMJ 1941 feet per sec. 1978 feet per sec.


How does 40 cal have 2.5x the power?

The .40 S&W out of a 16" bbl has 2.5X the Knockdown Power (TKO) of the .30 cal Carbine, and even 9mm rounds are almost 1.5X TKO over the .30 Carbine..
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Old 11-07-2019, 4:27 PM
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S&W .40 cal 16" barrel

Federal 180 Grain and Gold Dot 1142 FPS

18" raises you up by 23 FPS to 1165


KE= 1/2 Mass X Velocity squared

and who cares about the chiropractor - your gun- have fun
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Last edited by hermosabeach; 11-07-2019 at 4:29 PM..
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Old 11-08-2019, 7:09 AM
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
The .40 S&W out of a 16" bbl has 2.5X the Knockdown Power (TKO) of the .30 cal Carbine, and even 9mm rounds are almost 1.5X TKO over the .30 Carbine..
Randy
Sorry BUT - I don't think so -

Also you would be better off with a 165gr.

My loads = 1350FPS +/- 20FPS 16" barrel.
I could go hotter but I would prefer to re-load my brass more than once.
165 @ 1350FPS drops less than a 180Gr at 1150FPS - Which is a very hot load. The extra 6" of barrel really isn't necessary utilizing the 180GR. Kalifornia so you are screwed. 165GR can utilize the longer barrel length better. I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to get a 180Gr much faster out of a 40SW.

Glad you had fun at Front Sight - That is one of the things on my bucket list $$$$ being my limiting factor.
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Old 11-08-2019, 7:12 AM
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Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
30 carbine

Brand Projectile 3-Shot Average 5-Shot Average
Hornady 110 grain FTX 1895 feet per sec. 1844 feet per sec.
Privi Partizan 110 gr FMJ 1941 feet per sec. 1978 feet per sec.


How does 40 cal have 2.5x the power?

The .40 S&W out of a 16" bbl has 2.5X the Knockdown Power (TKO) of the .30 cal Carbine, and even 9mm rounds are almost 1.5X TKO over the .30 Carbine..
This guy has a really weird fetish for his .40 cal rifle. He's posted numerous threads over and over since he bought it, and he positively will not listen to anybody who posts numbers, data, or reason. Don't engage with him. To him, .40 S&W is a tactical nuke that we're all foolish not to use.
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Old 11-08-2019, 9:07 AM
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Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
This guy has a really weird fetish for his .40 cal rifle. He's posted numerous threads over and over since he bought it, and he positively will not listen to anybody who posts numbers, data, or reason. Don't engage with him. To him, .40 S&W is a tactical nuke that we're all foolish not to use.
WEEELLLLL - Everybody has their fetish - Just don't try to push it upon me unless of course you are a desirable Female - Open to discussion and I can be PMed LOLOL

I do believe the 40SW is one of the best PCC rounds or PPC (Perfect Pistol Carbine) Minimal recoil in a PCC, more punch than a 9mm, similar round count to a 9mm, drop out to 300 meters is just about the same as a 9mm, Much better than 45ACP in PCC - 9mm, 40SW & 45ACP being the most common.
Is there a better platform? Yup but Hey diversity is what makes the world go round.
In an SBR or AR pistol platform is is hard to beat. An SBR in 5.56 or similar is blinding a night. 10mm well that is a whole other story and ammo / reloading cost goes up about 1/3 from a 40SW.
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Old 11-08-2019, 9:31 AM
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Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
This guy has a really weird fetish for his .40 cal rifle. He's posted numerous threads over and over since he bought it, and he positively will not listen to anybody who posts numbers, data, or reason. Don't engage with him. To him, .40 S&W is a tactical nuke that we're all foolish not to use.
That makes more sense. I was wondering what this Total Knockdown Power (TKO, but what's the "O"?) was, and what units it was measured in. Foolish me, I should have known that IS the unit. I guess .30Carbine is the base unit at 1.00 TKO, and .40 is measured at 2.5 TKOs. As for the measurement device, it's just OP himself.
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Old 11-08-2019, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
...

Also, I was talking TKO not Muzzle Energy TKO is the results at the target not the muzzle.

That formula is: Bullet Weight in Grains x Diameter x Velocity divided by 7000.

So using your velicity numbers for .30 carbine 110 x 1900 x .308 /7000 =9.2 TKO

.40 S&W 180 x 1200 x .401 /7000 = 12.4 TKO
9MM 147 gr x .355 x 1350/7000 = 10.0 TKO

My Chrony is reading the S&B .40 S&W at more like 1400 fps and the 165 gr Federal stuff at @1500 fps out of this gun. So 14.5 TKO for the 180's and 14.1 for the 165's. So By my numbers it is 1.5X the knockdown power of the .30 carb.
...

So where am I going wrong?

Randy
So let's say I had a half inch sized, 1 pound rock, and threw it at 30 mph (44fps)

(7000 grains x 44 fps x .5)/7000 =22 TKO.

And since this equation is "results at the target not the muzzle" then at 1000 yds, my rock that I threw at only 30mph is TWICE the TKO of your .40.

Or let's say I had another rock that also weighed 1 pound, but it was less dense (more porous), so then the equation looks like

(7000 x 44 x 1)/7000 = 44 TKO. So this 2nd rock which is less dense has twice the knockdown power of the previous, denser rock? And 4x the power of a .40?

hmmm, I don't think so.
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Old 11-08-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by kcheung2 View Post
That makes more sense. I was wondering what this Total Knockdown Power (TKO, but what's the "O"?) was, and what units it was measured in. Foolish me, I should have known that IS the unit. I guess .30Carbine is the base unit at 1.00 TKO, and .40 is measured at 2.5 TKOs. As for the measurement device, it's just OP himself.
TKO is Taylor Knock Out, a formula cooked up for African hunting. It's validity against big animals has been questioned, and it's use wrt to shooting humans makes no sense at all.
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Old 11-08-2019, 10:12 AM
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TKO = technical knock out i.e. a KO called by the referee.
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Old 11-08-2019, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
That's right it does. But only if the material is the same which would double the weight. You are talking apples and oranges

8 lb Sledge Hammer at 100 fps. 56,000 x 3.0 x 100/7000 = 2400 TKO ! and that's why they use Sledge Hammers to break rocks rather than Claw Hammers! I doubt many would live thru a sledge shot to the chest?

Randy
At 1000 yds? 10 miles? After all your equation is "at the target not the muzzle" I could stand 1000 yds away and take your 8 lb sledgehammer tosses all day.
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:21 PM
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W.R Buchanan -
I'm not gone be a beatin on you also about LBS of energy power but either your Chronograph needs calibration or the one i used does.
S&B 180 is more like 1030FPS +/- 20
Federal 165 is around 1250 +/- 30
If the one I used is out of calibration, My 165s would be around 1500 + FPS. I don't think that to be true. Check yours - I don't own one - And get back to me. I am curious now.
I'm waiting on Black Friday to make several purchases one of them being a Chronograph - Still haven't made my mind up yet on which one.
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post

Also, I was talking TKO not Muzzle Energy TKO is the results at the target not the muzzle.

That formula is: Bullet Weight in Grains x Diameter x Velocity divided by 7000.

So using your velicity numbers for .30 carbine 110 x 1900 x .308 /7000 =9.2 TKO

.40 S&W 180 x 1200 x .401 /7000 = 12.4 TKO
9MM 147 gr x .355 x 1350/7000 = 10.0 TKO
.243 Win
( 100gr / 7000 ) x 3000 fps x .243 = 10.4 TKO

— Michael
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Old 11-08-2019, 1:43 PM
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Do the people questioning it have more experience in shooting said animals, than the guy who shot everything with everything available over 100 years ago?

Randy
They shot enough to know better. Because people were misapplying it (like in this thread) to scenarios that weren't relevant at all to it's purpose. Which is how a load does against large African animals. Want to use it to compare a .375 H&H Magnum to a .418 Whizzenblaster? Relevant. Compare freakin pistol rounds to use against humans? Ridiculous.
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Old 11-08-2019, 1:48 PM
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
Just got back from a trip to Front Sight with my Ruger PCC.40 Carbine.

The gun performed well, and it is now officially Broken In.

.40 caliber holes are much easier to see on a target than .22 sized holes.

Controlled pairs are easy to get off as are head shots. My bore to sight offset is <1" at 7-15 yards dead on at 25. My sight in group 5 shots at 50 yards off a rest was <1.5" with a Red Dot Optic.

I used all 4 of my Glock 22 round mags, and I had one that would stovepipe a round every so often (it now has a big X on it) but once I figured out how to lock the bolt open with my left thumb (thanks Mr. Reid) I was good to go and could run the gun as fast or faster than any of the AR's in the class.

The class had 22 people with 1 AK, my gun, and the rest AR's. I had to fight Management a little to get in the class and they said I couldn't take the test with the gun. Then I found out they were letting M1 CArbines in the class and I made a stink big time.

The .40 S&W out of a 16" bbl has 2.5X the Knockdown Power (TKO) of the .30 cal Carbine, and even 9mm rounds are almost 1.5X TKO over the .30 Carbine..

I sent a note to Piazza about this and will share it when he responds. Too many of these guns out there to ignore just because they are "Pistol Caliber" If that's the case then my Marlin 1894 in .44 Magnum would be kept out as well. and since the farthest we shot was 100 yards I see no reason why these guns should be excluded.

All the instructors were interested in and duly impressed with the gun and I am hoping for some movement from Management.

I burned up about 300 rounds in the 3 days we were in that class, then we went to a shotgun class for another two days.

A great time was had by all. You guys should go, as the weather is Perfect right now.

Randy
Randy, are they still going out to 200 yards? How did the PCC do at that distance? I will be there next week with a 5.56 AR.
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Old 11-09-2019, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Randy, are they still going out to 200 yards? How did the PCC do at that distance? I will be there next week with a 5.56 AR.
We only shot to 100 yards This time and last time.. When I first started there in 2006 you went to 400 yards and then 200 and now only 100.

I can hit at 200 yards off a rest with this gun, but have to hold about a 1.5 feet high. My .223 carbines are all sighted in at 200 yards so I hold dead on, Still off a Rest.

We do 200 yard shots in my local 3 gun shoots and that's where I aim, but it's always off a barrier or barrel or some kind of rest. The gun will shoot 200 yards but it's not really meant for that. It is a solid 100 yard gun which is what it was designed to be. You can stretch it but you have to know your holdovers.

Randy
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Old 11-09-2019, 5:07 AM
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Randy, are they still going out to 200 yards? How did the PCC do at that distance? I will be there next week with a 5.56 AR.
My load data - Not a Ruger but an assembled - AR using a Frontier Frame as a base & an EOTech Circle dot.
165Gr @ 1350FPS - 100 yard zero

Hornaday Calculator

Data below confirmed -
Rifle is 3" to 4" MOA Using a circle dot. The PPC is limited my the owner. 200 yard hits average - 8 out of 10 quick off hand very easy. 300 yards 7 out of 10 utilizing a rest dependent upon wind 24" steel plate. Anything over about 15 MPH is difficult because of varying drift.
All the blow data confirmed and limited by owner. 40SW definitely doable to man sized targets out to 300 yards . It makes a very distinctive clang when it hits steel at 300 yards.

100 Yards = 0.0" / 533 Foot pounds
150 Yards = -08.0" / 380 Foot pounds
200 Yards = -26.1" / 338 Foot pounds
250 Yards = -52.8" / 305 Foot pounds
300 Yards = -89.9" / 278 Foot pounds
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Old 11-09-2019, 7:29 AM
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Tuna Taco: I don't listen to people who don't know what they are talking about, like the fools that think a 9MM is more powerful than the.40 S&W or .45 ACP just because of all the new ammo available for 9MM,,, which is also available for .40 and .45 so that argument is out the window.

Bigger holes hurt more than smaller ones and that's all there is to it. Larger Diameter bullets transfer their energy more efficiently than smaller ones do and that's the one simple fact that blows all the hoopla and oink over this argument out the window.


Think this one wouldn't hurt? (Lyman 12ga Pellet Slug, note big flat nose?)

Also, I was talking TKO not Muzzle Energy TKO is the results at the target not the muzzle.

That formula is: Bullet Weight in Grains x Diameter x Velocity divided by 7000.

So using your velicity numbers for .30 carbine 110 x 1900 x .308 /7000 =9.2 TKO

.40 S&W 180 x 1200 x .401 /7000 = 12.4 TKO
9MM 147 gr x .355 x 1350/7000 = 10.0 TKO

My Chrony is reading the S&B .40 S&W at more like 1400 fps and the 165 gr Federal stuff at @1500 fps out of this gun. So 14.5 TKO for the 180's and 14.1 for the 165's. So By my numbers it is 1.5X the knockdown power of the .30 carb.

As far as the fetish for my gun? I waited for a year and a half for this gun, and it is everything I had hoped for and I really like it! And after this class I "really, really" like it, and can run it very well,,, thank you very much Front Sight Instructors..

And you telling people to not "engage with me." are implying that I (Fellow Gun Enthusiast and 2nd Amendment Supporter) am nuts,,, and that kind of makes you sound like some kind of "Antifa Protester" or "Left Wing Activist" trying to shut down speech that you don't want to hear!

What are you?,,, a Friggin' Democrat? By posting things like you said, you are playing right into the hands of the people in this state that want eliminate guns completely. They are doing it by instilling the "Uncoolness of Firearms and Shooting" in our young people and the population in general. Just chipping away at Public Sentiment which is exactly the strategy that Geo Soros and his minions are using to bring down this country. Try watching Fox News instead of CNN and MSNBC for a real exposure to the truth.

I got no problem with people talking different statistics, but I got a real problem with people trying to shut down the conversation by saying things like,,,

Don't engage with him. To him, .40 S&W is a tactical nuke that we're all foolish not to use.

You effectively were trying to shut this thread down. How does that benefit this site which is all about commenting on your favorite topic, and only lives based on the number of clicks and posts that show up ??? Sounds kind of counter-productive doesn't it?

I got this gun simply because I have two .40 S&W Glock Pistols and can use all my Magazines in this one too. I don't have any 9MM's.

The main thrust of my post was to promote the Ruger PCC Carbines, Front Sight, and the good time I had while doing it.

I am also lobbying FS to allow these guns in the full classes on an equal basis with all other rifles so people like you, who think the 9MM is the wonder round of the 21st century, can bring YOUR GUNS to the class and get some much needed training!

So where am I going wrong?

Randy
You guys see what I mean?
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Old 11-09-2019, 8:04 AM
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Pistol caliber carbine not allowed at the FS practical rifle class?
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Old 11-09-2019, 8:57 AM
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You guys see what I mean?
you're so right

Randy
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Old 11-09-2019, 9:26 AM
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Pistol caliber carbine not allowed at the FS practical rifle class?
They will let you shoot them, but they aren't considered eligible for Skills-Test purposes. From their perspective its the same as running a 22 in handgun class.
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Old 11-09-2019, 1:43 PM
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That makes more sense. I was wondering what this Total Knockdown Power (TKO, but what's the "O"?) was, and what units it was measured in. Foolish me, I should have known that IS the unit. I guess .30Carbine is the base unit at 1.00 TKO, and .40 is measured at 2.5 TKOs. As for the measurement device, it's just OP himself.
I believe it’s equivalent to 12 Guffey neck tensions.
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Old 11-09-2019, 2:12 PM
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This is quite an interesting thread lol
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Old 11-09-2019, 5:44 PM
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WEEELLLLL - Everybody has their fetish - Just don't try to push it upon me unless of course you are a desirable Female
I'll probably never buy the .40 PCC, but a lot of people would not have two 9mm PCC's either. To each there own. I probably will not eat a tuna quesadilla either.
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Old 11-10-2019, 7:15 AM
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I'll probably never buy the .40 PCC, but a lot of people would not have two 9mm PCC's either. To each there own. I probably will not eat a tuna quesadilla either.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL - I take it your not a desirable female - LOLOL
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Old 11-10-2019, 8:00 AM
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IBTL, think that's a first for me.
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Old 11-10-2019, 8:38 AM
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
That formula is: Bullet Weight in Grains x Diameter x Velocity divided by 7000.

So using your velicity numbers for .30 carbine 110 x 1900 x .308 /7000 =9.2 TKO

.40 S&W 180 x 1200 x .401 /7000 = 12.4 TKO
9MM 147 gr x .355 x 1350/7000 = 10.0 TKO
What you're [sort of] calculating is angular momentum. This might accidentally correlate with effectiveness of elephant head shots, but it makes absolutely no sense as a general metric to compare cartridges.

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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
What are you?,,, a Friggin' Democrat? By posting things like you said, you are playing right into the hands of the people in this state that want eliminate guns completely. They are doing it by instilling the "Uncoolness of Firearms and Shooting" in our young people and the population in general. Just chipping away at Public Sentiment which is exactly the strategy that Geo Soros and his minions are using to bring down this country. Try watching Fox News instead of CNN and MSNBC for a real exposure to the truth.
Well, that escalated quickly.

For the record I think outbursts like this in a thread about dubious ballistics claims are what "instill uncoolness of firearms and shooting."
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Old 11-12-2019, 6:58 AM
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Guys: All I was saying was that the .40 S&W is more powerful than the .30 carbine,,, which it is. The fact that they allow .30 Carbines into the class with full credit on the test but blocked me is what annoyed me. Somehow this got mutated into the ongoing 9MM versus .40 S&W debate. Or in this case the .30 Carbine versus .40 S&W debate. You can use whatever numbers you want but it doesn't change the fact that I couldn't take the skills test because my gun is not in a Rifle Caliber but they consider the .30 Carbine a Rifle Caliber?,,, So we went to another class and shot Shotguns.

You can pooh pooh the TKO rating all you want, but it has been considered to be a viable tool in comparing similar rounds for over 100 years and is just as viable today. The numbers themselves mean nothing, they are just there for comparison, and it has nothing to do with "Angular Momentum." It is the ability of a Round to "dump its energy" and knock down a target. Bigger bullets have larger Frontal Area and thus transmit their energy to the target better than smaller bullets. That's why I posted the Pic of the Flat nosed 12 ga slug. The numbers simply show the relationship between the different rounds.

Randy
In my late teens though early 20s my friends & I did testing on various rifle and pistol rounds. Test consisted of 1/4" mild steel plates - (SA455 material) which measured 30" to 39" in diameter. I welded a 3"x3"x1/4"X 80" long angle to the back, V cut the bottom then welded a 3.5" x 3/8" thick circle to the top of the other side of the angle. We would drive these into the ground with sledgehammers from the tailgates of our trucks. The 39" test targets weighed 120LBs.
We tested multiple rife rounds with store bought hunting and military ammo. from 5.56 - 20 barrel though 375 H&H. Almost All of the rifle rounds punched though the plate and most though the angle behind it like butter out to 283 yards - All the room we had at out test area. 30 carbine if i recall correctly only to about 150 +/- yards. Pistol rounds bounced off at 15 yards and didn't do any significant damage. Magnum rounds made small dents. We didn't test a 40SW but 44Mag, 357Mag, 38, 45ACP ECT standard available rounds at the time. 1.25 ounce lead 12 gauge shot gun slugs traveling at 1600 advertised FPS were the most impressive. They made a 5"+ wide dent 1.25"+ deep in the plate but didn't penetrate. The slug expanded to over 1" After 3 rounds at 15 yards. The 39" steel target lifted out of the ground and fell over. I would feel sorry for anyone wearing body armor absorbing that Round.
I realize this is apples to oranges but I do feel the TKO - 100 year old formula is limited to specific cartridges and not to be utilized as a foundation for all load development.
A little adder - at the beginning of the Rodney King Riots. The LA Newton division came running into our facility and asked me to make them windshields with portholes out of steel plate for their vehicles. When I verbally gave them the results of my testing, they just shook their heads and said they didn't have any idea that 1/4 steel plates wouldn't stop rifle rounds. Un Frigin believable. We still offered to make them but they declined.

Last edited by Olderfart; 11-12-2019 at 7:01 AM..
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
The steel targets we are shooting at nowadays are mostly made from AR500 (Abrasion Resistant) plate 3/8-1/2" think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olderfart View Post
Test consisted of 1/4" mild steel plates - (SA455 material)

they just shook their heads and said they didn't have any idea that 1/4 steel plates wouldn't stop rifle rounds. Un Frigin believable. We still offered to make them but they declined.
Obviously it was not AR500 or better. Mild steel or the steel a lot of rimfire steel targets are made of will be pierced like butter by regular 55 grain 5.56 M193 or similar.
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Old 11-12-2019, 1:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
The steel targets we are shooting at nowadays are mostly made from AR500 (Abrasion Resistant) plate 3/8-1/2" think. The only thing that"may" go thru them are .30 AP Rounds. Pistol rounds don't even dent the plates and even the heavy shotgun slugs won't dent either.

However the heavy (1600 fps) shotgun slugs will knock the targets end over end. The impact is pretty impressive. And nothing lives thru a Slug.

The only thing I disagree with in your post is the .30 Carbine shooting thru the 1/4" plate at 150 yards. I have shot many thousands of .30 Carbine rounds at everything from rabbits to car bodies laying around in the desert. I just don't see a 110 gr bullet going thru a mild steel plate. I'd have to see it cuz they won't even dent the plates we shoot at now. They do make a mark,,, a copper colored splat.

Randy
Realize this is 40 +/- years ago when we did that batch of testing. Yah I'm getting up there - As I said mild steel - and I do recall it penetrating but maybe I'm gettin forgetful - ya never know. Oh this is the internet - I must be right LOL.
M1 carbine Korean war surplus rifle and Winchester Military Surplus ammo - don't remember the bullet weight / grains but should have been around 110 grains.

1/4" AR500 will have holes put in it with M193 at over 3000FPS at anything less than 70 yards possibly 3/8" too and will do damage up to 125 yards.
Ask me how I know -
Well - All the posts & info I respond to on this forum is just to help others and not to be taken personally by anyone.
The company I work for just made our own Plasma Table - 132" wide x 504" long which will cut under water up to 1.5" Carbon or Stainless Steel easily. - No one we contacted could figure out how to make a table that big. It currently cuts within +/- .032" over the entire surface which is accountable by the steel flexing during cutting. We purchase steel in coils and have them leveled this is why they flex during separation / cutting - layman explanation. We try to keep the weight around 40 tons each because of handling. +/- .032 is ok by our standards.
I don't plan on selling targets but will be purchasing a large plate of AR600 - 3/8" or similar material for my own targets and for friends at my cost or below. Because we purchase such large quantities of steel at a time 1000s of tons, I think I can get a very reasonable price for a one off purchase. Plasma is definitely not the best way to cut heat treated steel but That is what I have access to. This is why I have checked Velocities and penetration on various steels because I was intrigued durring my younger days and want to make my own targets because I can and I am cheap

The M1 30 carbine was only tested is a few outings years ago. I don't own one and never had a desire to.

Last edited by Olderfart; 11-12-2019 at 1:09 PM.. Reason: I'm at work and Kan't type in one sitting.
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Old 11-12-2019, 1:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
The numbers themselves mean nothing, they are just there for comparison, and it has nothing to do with "Angular Momentum." It is the ability of a Round to "dump its energy" and knock down a target. Bigger bullets have larger Frontal Area and thus transmit their energy to the target better than smaller bullets. That's why I posted the Pic of the Flat nosed 12 ga slug. The numbers simply show the relationship between the different rounds.
If the numbers don't mean anything then you can't use them for anything, even relative comparisons.

The metric may have been intended to indicate the ability of a round to "dump its energy" but what I'm telling you is that the numbers you're multiplying together are not that.

If we multiply our weight, age, and social security numbers together that doesn't give us a relative comparison of our earning potential just because I claim that's what I was hoping for.
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Old 11-12-2019, 3:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Olderfart View Post
1/4" AR500 will have holes put in it with M193 at over 3000FPS at anything less than 70 yards possibly 3/8" too and will do damage up to 125 yards.
Yeah I guess 1/4" is not thick... I usually have knife blades on the brain and 1/4" is standard and thick. My twin 8" AR500 hangers must be 3/4". They were pretty inexpensive.
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Old 11-12-2019, 6:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
The steel targets we are shooting at nowadays are mostly made from AR500 (Abrasion Resistant) plate 3/8-1/2" think. The only thing that"may" go thru them are .30 AP Rounds. Pistol rounds don't even dent the plates and even the heavy shotgun slugs won't dent either.
5.56 green tip will cut through 3/8" or 1/2" AR500 like butter. Shotgun slugs will dent the hell out of them. I know from first hand experience.
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Old 11-12-2019, 8:13 PM
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They will let you shoot them, but they aren't considered eligible for Skills-Test purposes. From their perspective its the same as running a 22 in handgun class.
They will let you take the skills test with an M1 carbine. I have twice. That’s the smallest caliber that they let do it.

They give you get extra time (same as AK) for emergency reloads because the bolt does not lock back on empty mag.
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Old 11-13-2019, 12:34 AM
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I started this thread to tell about my recent trip to Front Sight and my experiences there.

Instead "ONE Sentence" in that post has been turned into a Pizzing Match. It is pointless to continue my participation in this thread simply because of the endless ability of others to pick out one minor point and amplify it into more Pizz.

Done , have a nice day.

Randy
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Old 11-13-2019, 5:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
5.56 green tip will cut through 3/8" or 1/2" AR500 like butter. Shotgun slugs will dent the hell out of them. I know from first hand experience.
Not all AR500 is the same - 450 Brinell / 46HRC Not very hard to 550 Brinell /54HRC. 550 Brinel is where a file will almost start to state across it - like checking your knife after heat treatment for hardness. The final hardness is determined by the heat treatment 500 Brinell / 50HRC is what the heat treater tries for. (500 Brinel - AR500 how they came up with the name).
How the material is cut after heat treating is critical because if you apply too much heat the material looses it hardness in the heat affected zone. This is why water jet cutting is optimum for heat treated material - less heat transfers.
So to end this when you purchase AR500 target steel it could be soft or harder dependent upon initial heat treatment and how the material was sectioned.
I hope to use AR600 but I am concerned with cracking in the heat affected zone because of the cutting process I will be utilizing.
AR600 tries for 600 Brinel / 58HRC Base. (Same deviation scale as AR500) A file will skate off of that - meaning the material is just as hard and possibly brittle as the file.
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Old 11-13-2019, 6:01 AM
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When your one sentence has misleading information, people will point it out. Claiming the .40S&W is more powerful than a .30 Carbine is not supported by data for modern ammo.

Hornady’s Critical Defense .30 Carbine 110 gr FTX has 977ftlb muzzle energy and retains 626 ftlbs at 100 yds
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/r...cal-defense#!/

Here is a chart of the muzzle energy of several different modern loads of .40Smith from different length barrels. None of them achieve 900 ftlbs of energy at the muzzle from an 18” barrel. The midpoint is about 625ftlbs at the muzzle - which the .30 Carbine gets 100 yds down Range.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/40sw.html



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Old 11-13-2019, 7:11 AM
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I wish this thread contained more range results like what kind of groups it shoots at 100 yards.
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Old 11-13-2019, 9:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
Just got back from a trip to Front Sight with my Ruger PCC.40 Carbine.

The gun performed well, and it is now officially Broken In.
Congrats, sounds like a lot of fun. So will they let PC Carbines in 9mm run, or was it just an exception for the .40 one class?

I only have one of those 22 rounders and a 31 I think. I hope mine are good. I have not tested them in G22's.
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Old 11-13-2019, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joefear7 View Post
I wish this thread contained more range results like what kind of groups it shoots at 100 yards.
Here ya go - I hope more people start to shoot the 40SW - It will bring down ammo cost. I only have about 6000 once or twice fired cases left for reloading so I would like purchase a few 1000 rounds of new ammo to build up my supply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olderfart View Post
My load data - Not a Ruger but an assembled - AR using a Frontier Frame as a base & an EOTech Circle dot.
165Gr @ 1350FPS - 100 yard zero

Hornaday Calculator

Data below confirmed -
Rifle is 3" to 4" MOA Using a circle dot. The PPC is limited my the owner. 200 yard hits average - 8 out of 10 quick off hand very easy. 300 yards 7 out of 10 utilizing a rest dependent upon wind 24" steel plate. Anything over about 15 MPH is difficult because of varying drift.
All the blow data confirmed and limited by owner. 40SW definitely doable to man sized targets out to 300 yards . It makes a very distinctive clang when it hits steel at 300 yards.

100 Yards = 0.0" / 533 Foot pounds
150 Yards = -08.0" / 380 Foot pounds
200 Yards = -26.1" / 338 Foot pounds
250 Yards = -52.8" / 305 Foot pounds
300 Yards = -89.9" / 278 Foot pounds
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