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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 11-07-2019, 9:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
[irrelevant crap...]

You're arguing that polls aren't valid based on who runs the poll and how the question is asked; neither of which is, strictly, true.

[eye-glazing wall-o-text]...
If, IF, you believe that after everything we’ve seen from the left including trying to subvert a SCOTUS nomination with slander and prevarication, a soft coup against our President, untrue and political motivations by the previous administration and the FBI/CIA, and Impeachment that anything that comes from the left isn’t pure propaganda, including your polls, I question your intelligence or sanity.
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  #42  
Old 11-07-2019, 9:58 AM
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We can only do 3 things.
Hope that SCOTUS delivers a massive slap down in NYSRPA case.
Then hope libtard states accept the smack down.
lock and load.
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  #43  
Old 11-07-2019, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robotron2k84 View Post
If, IF, you believe that after everything we’ve seen from the left including trying to subvert a SCOTUS nomination with slander and prevarication, a soft coup against our President, untrue and political motivations by the previous administration and the FBI/CIA, and Impeachment that anything that comes from the left isn’t pure propaganda, including your polls, I question your intelligence or sanity.
One... It's not "my" poll.

Second... As I said, you're arguing with how the results are being represented by claiming the methodology is flawed due to the Left-Wing conspiracy. They are two, separate issues.

Third... I'm well aware of the 'coup' attempt(s), being that I have, to the consternation of some on this site, been the one linking to actual documents being used to create narratives against the NRA, Trump, and gun owners.

Finally... Parroting Trump's "fake news" labeling isn't an intelligent argument. It's narrative which avoids constructive debate, particularly when coupled with name-calling and/or insult, to create perception; a perception which may or may not be wholly accurate, leaving it vulnerable to critique.

Returning to #2, as I said in my previous posts, what you have to establish is that they are practicing disinformation to qualify the claims ostensibly based on the poll, not the poll itself, as 'fake news.' One of the exemplars I provided was...

Do you support confiscating guns?

or...

Do you support confiscating guns only from those adjudicated to be mentally ill or disabled, convicted of violent felonies, and/or determined to be suicidal?

If you proffer support (answer affirmatively) for either question, you are, by default and definition, supporting gun confiscation, at least in some form. Yet, you will find many gun owners and Calguns members who do, in fact, support such confiscation. Thus, we know it is NOT 'fake news' for a poll to report that there is support for 'gun confiscation.'

What you have to unwind, by demonstrating with your own numbers and documented evidence (not surmises, assumptions, and biases), is how the respondents understood the question and their rationale for an affirmative response.

Even if I were to ask the 2nd version of the question, then say that respondents support gun confiscation, would I be lying? No. We know that there is an element of 'truth' in the claim based on the poll results. While I may not be providing the nuance of the question, claiming that there is support for confiscation would be providing a legitimate (though incomplete) interpretation regarding the gist of the response?

Would I be spreading 'fake news' by claiming there is support for confiscation? It depends. What is the claim, are the caveats regarding the specifics of the question noted, and how far is the claim taken? Does support for confiscation in certain, specific cases suggest support for larger scale confiscation? That question wasn't asked/measured in the actual poll or in the theoretical exemplar. Yet, it is the claim being ensconced in the narrative provided by the Left.

Does that make the poll illegitimate or does the poll itself provide evidence that the narrative is being nefariously spun?

I would suggest the latter... Which is precisely why I have been linking to the original documents cited as the source for the claims being asserted. If you take the time to actually study the source materials rather than reflexively dismiss them as 'fake news' (bearing in mind that, in the case of the NRA, some of the documents have been products of the NRA itself), it is usually fairly plain that while there is an element of 'truth,' the narrative is typically misleading in terms of that 'truth.'

Put another way, simply dismissing (not demonstrating) things as false, insulting the 'messenger,' and declaring oneself to occupy the moral high ground isn't argument. It's yet another narrative which, by its nature, begs to be examined with a critical (even cynical) eye. Why? Because it too is based more in polemic than in the documented evidence.
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  #44  
Old 11-07-2019, 11:45 AM
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And on the block list you go. You may think you are arguing in favor of reasoned judgement, but all you are doing is Bloomberg’s work for him by keeping the door open to insinuate that there must be a horse somewhere in the pile.
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  #45  
Old 11-07-2019, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEGSDAD View Post
We can only do 3 things.
Hope that SCOTUS delivers a massive slap down in NYSRPA case.
Then hope libtard states accept the smack down.
lock and load.
SCOTUS is useless. The Democrats will ignore NYSRPA, like they do Heller. Things won’t change until anti gunners are swinging by the neck until dead.
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  #46  
Old 11-07-2019, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
One... It's not "my" poll.

Second... As I said, you're arguing with how the results are being represented by claiming the methodology is flawed due to the Left-Wing conspiracy. They are two, separate issues.

Third... I'm well aware of the 'coup' attempt(s), being that I have, to the consternation of some on this site, been the one linking to actual documents being used to create narratives against the NRA, Trump, and gun owners.

Finally... Parroting Trump's "fake news" labeling isn't an intelligent argument. It's narrative which avoids constructive debate, particularly when coupled with name-calling and/or insult, to create perception; a perception which may or may not be wholly accurate, leaving it vulnerable to critique.

Returning to #2, as I said in my previous posts, what you have to establish is that they are practicing disinformation to qualify the claims ostensibly based on the poll, not the poll itself, as 'fake news.' One of the exemplars I provided was...

Do you support confiscating guns?

or...

Do you support confiscating guns only from those adjudicated to be mentally ill or disabled, convicted of violent felonies, and/or determined to be suicidal?

If you proffer support (answer affirmatively) for either question, you are, by default and definition, supporting gun confiscation, at least in some form. Yet, you will find many gun owners and Calguns members who do, in fact, support such confiscation. Thus, we know it is NOT 'fake news' for a poll to report that there is support for 'gun confiscation.'

What you have to unwind, by demonstrating with your own numbers and documented evidence (not surmises, assumptions, and biases), is how the respondents understood the question and their rationale for an affirmative response.

Even if I were to ask the 2nd version of the question, then say that respondents support gun confiscation, would I be lying? No. We know that there is an element of 'truth' in the claim based on the poll results. While I may not be providing the nuance of the question, claiming that there is support for confiscation would be providing a legitimate (though incomplete) interpretation regarding the gist of the response?

Would I be spreading 'fake news' by claiming there is support for confiscation? It depends. What is the claim, are the caveats regarding the specifics of the question noted, and how far is the claim taken? Does support for confiscation in certain, specific cases suggest support for larger scale confiscation? That question wasn't asked/measured in the actual poll or in the theoretical exemplar. Yet, it is the claim being ensconced in the narrative provided by the Left.

Does that make the poll illegitimate or does the poll itself provide evidence that the narrative is being nefariously spun?

I would suggest the latter... Which is precisely why I have been linking to the original documents cited as the source for the claims being asserted. If you take the time to actually study the source materials rather than reflexively dismiss them as 'fake news' (bearing in mind that, in the case of the NRA, some of the documents have been products of the NRA itself), it is usually fairly plain that while there is an element of 'truth,' the narrative is typically misleading in terms of that 'truth.'

Put another way, simply dismissing (not demonstrating) things as false, insulting the 'messenger,' and declaring oneself to occupy the moral high ground isn't argument. It's yet another narrative which, by its nature, begs to be examined with a critical (even cynical) eye. Why? Because it too is based more in polemic than in the documented evidence.
Dont waste your time. Everyone with an IQ over 80 understands what you are saying. Some people just dont want to accept reality.
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And the lord appeared unto him and spoketh "tere henges". And he did knoweth in two weeks shall be the terrible boating accident whereas upon the mighty waves will the shoulder thing that goes up be lost beneath the sea. All rise. Sit down. Rise again. Sit down. Behold the non homo dancing. Amen
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  #47  
Old 11-07-2019, 3:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhobbs View Post
SCOTUS is useless. The Democrats will ignore NYSRPA, like they do Heller. Things won’t change until anti gunners are swinging by the neck until dead.
I fear we are very much coming to this place. Without Federal enforcement of some kind, and I mean up to and including Army troops, the states like CA will continue to ignore any Pro-gun/2A SCOTUS rulings just as they have Heller/MacDonald for the past 10 years now.
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  #48  
Old 11-07-2019, 6:03 PM
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If draconian anti gun laws do become national I foresee several states openly refusing to enforce them. Possibly leading to the breakup of the country. Unfortunately Kommiefornia will be more than happy to enforce all anti gun laws.
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  #49  
Old 11-08-2019, 2:00 AM
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Well... We knew this was coming... Virginia Republican rejects Trump, votes Democratic down the line: Mastio & Lawrence

It's Trump's fault...

Quote:
Democrats blew out Republicans in Virginia on Tuesday. They did it with my vote, and it made me sick...

I picked up the Democratic sample ballot and voted down the line with the party I oppose. Even for “soil and water conservation director.”

When I did, I had the same nauseated reaction as when I went to court for a divorce. My hope was that a clear rejection of Republicans would deliver the message that President Donald Trump was poison to GOP electoral prospects in 2020...

You personally might not be enamored of Democratic policies like the new gun laws this new Virginia legislature is bound to pass, but you are not enamored of Trump, to put it mildly. And that is a political dynamic that played out this week across suburbia. Take Pennsylvania, for instance. Democrats swept once-Republican suburbs in a state Trump won by less than 1 percentage point in 2016 and desperately needs to win again. That looks iffy at this point.

Two things we know for sure as a result of these off-year elections: Support for impeachment is not hurting the Democratic brand. And neither is support for gun laws backed by supermajorities of Americans...
What Trump and Republicans should learn from Virginia Democrats' gun safety win over NRA

Quote:
...one major takeaway is clear: Candidates, especially those who rely on swing suburban voters, can win by making gun safety a central part of their campaign. And given Virginia’s status as a reliable national bellwether, the results should strike fear in the heart of every candidate up and down the ballot who is controlled by the gun lobby — including President Donald Trump...

...my organization, Everytown for Gun Safety, spent $2.5 million to let voters know which candidates stood for gun safety and which stood with the National Rifle Association, headquartered in Northern Virginia. With our support, candidates across the commonwealth made this their signature issue. Now the voters have spoken and their message was clear: They want leaders who promise to put gun safety ahead of the gun lobby...

What Trump doesn’t seem to be considering is that in order to win reelection, he needs swing district suburban voters far more than he needs the NRA’s backing...
For those who don't recognize the author's name from the second article when he refers to "my organization" - John Feinblatt is President of Everytown for Gun Safety.
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  #50  
Old 11-08-2019, 9:04 AM
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Virginia is for black face, not for black guns.
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  #51  
Old 11-09-2019, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by California_Deplorable View Post
Trapped, sadly you are 100% correct.

Virginia is also seen as a bellweather for the rest of the country. Make no mistake folks, if the Dems take the Presidency and Senate in 2020, the first order of business will be enacting the most oppressive form of gun control you could ever imagine. The very first thing they will enact, I chit you not. Dems have been tearing their hair out since they lost the Senate after Obama and Pelosi rammed the ACA through. I guarantee you if they could go back in time, they would have passed any and all gun laws they could dream up instead of the ACA, while they had control of Congress and the White House. The stakes are higher than they have ever been.


What makes you think lawful gun owners will follow strict and anti 2nd amendment gun control laws? Last time I checked, cocaine and meth are illegal, government can’t even stop homelessness, what makes should think they can enforce a gun law? Many (not all) government employees can’t get a job in the private sector some they get government jobs. Virginia is 90% government employees aka Democrats. They vote Democrat in Virginia so they can keep their jobs and get those massive pensions. Same thing in California. Don’t hate the player, hate the game. Just get a government job in California and retire for the rest of your life with a fat pension and if you know how to play the game and know the rules and loopholes. I’ve heard of janitors in California retiring with $250,000/year pensions. That’s insane, but that’s California.
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  #52  
Old 11-09-2019, 7:22 PM
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At least it won't affect the presidential elections since they haven't supported a GOP candidate in over 10 years..
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  #53  
Old 11-09-2019, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
If you go read The Washington Post piece I linked to earlier, you will find the following chart...
.
And none of these new bills will impact gang violence which drives 99% of shootings. As we have seen in Chicago or LA. If the cartels can sneak in bus loads of illegals and drugs why not weapons. After all the Local Governments want open borders and flow of illegal aliens.

In future years, we will find shootings by street gangs, home invasions and killings only increase. But its OK it was by an illegal alien. Shoot one, and that's a hate crime.
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  #54  
Old 11-10-2019, 2:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
Virginia is for black face, not for black guns.
Say it isn't so....
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  #55  
Old 11-10-2019, 6:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEGSDAD View Post
If draconian anti gun laws do become national I foresee several states openly refusing to enforce them. Possibly leading to the breakup of the country. Unfortunately Kommiefornia will be more than happy to enforce all anti gun laws.
I predict it will be the inverse: States with draconian gun laws refusing to accept SCOTUS overturning such laws that lead to the breakup.


Personal observation in Virginia:

The bluing of VA isn't due to immigrants from outside the US; the source is from within the US itself - urban New England and Southern CA and otherwise "university educated" people moving to the millions of new jobs being created mostly in "northern" Virginia. The sub and exurban counties of DC are now in control of the entire state, much like the I-95 corridor counties of Maryland
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  #56  
Old 11-10-2019, 7:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
If you go read The Washington Post piece I linked to earlier, you will find the following chart...
Not surprising. The modern Democrat party is a plague on America.
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  #57  
Old 11-11-2019, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEGSDAD View Post
We can only do 3 things.
Hope that SCOTUS delivers a massive slap down in NYSRPA case.
Then hope libtard states accept the smack down.
lock and load.
What makes you surmise that we are not Locked and Loaded?
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  #58  
Old 11-12-2019, 11:21 AM
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Yeah. Bush made good inroads on this front, but it was thrown away by later Republicans in Congress and now The White house, imo.
LOL, is this post satire? Open borders Bush? Surely you jest.

Every gun owner, stop wasting your time being mad at liberals. It's traitorous open borders REPUBLICANS like Paul Ryan who have caused us to lose California and now Virginia and soon Texas and the whole country. Many if not most Republicans in congress have been bought off by lobbyists from the US Chamber of Commerce and Big Ag and Big Tech.

I laugh at all the redneck bozos who look down on California because they live in a "free state," and who think California's problem is it is full of crazy liberals. No, California was a Republican bastion until immigration changed all of that. Turns out, poor immigrants and their offspring love big government so they vote Democrat. And any Republican who is for more immigration - legal or illegal - is either an idiot or bought off.

The only issue any gun owner or Republican should be concerned about is immigration. Because that is what will turn us into a permanent minority.
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