Hard/Fast rules for OLL travel

[2nab]

I've only had positive interaction with LE in regards to firearms and many of the LE I know are the most pro-gun, pro first ammendment, pro citizen carry individuals around.

What I haven't heard addressed here is while you are all speaking I hope from the perspective of a law abiding person who carries and transports in a legal fashion, nobody is acknowledging that we as law abiding may be 1 in 3, 1 in 5, or more, outnumbered by individuals who do not carry or transport legally, including those who utilize firearms for the purpose of commiting crimes. That is what the LE deals with constantly and if they ask you a couple questions to determine you are not a threat to others and send you happily on your way, I hope people will not lump them together with the "bad guys", and view them as the "enemy", as some have suggested here, when they are actually out there looking for and trying to protect you from the real "bad guys" who would not hesitate to cause harm to you or your family.

[PrimerDust360]

Originally Posted by vintagedude88

All the more reason to get a "Discreet" bag for your OLLs rather than a "gun shaped" tactical or rifle bag.

This is what I do. I transport my AR in a guitar "gig bag" with the 2 zippers locked together. I have a PT Cruiser that I bought because I have a 120 lb. dog, and the rear seats pop out giving him plenty of room back there. Unfortunately without rear seats there is no easy way for me to cover the cargo area in back. During a traffic stop the officer will be able to see back there and if there is what is obviously a rifle case I'll be asked about it. If there is something that looks like a guitar case the officer probably won't think twice about it.

[DogpawSlim]

I appreciate that this thread exists, but there is a significant amount of incorrect information in these six pages. Please be aware that there are many exceptions to the warrant requirement in the Fourth Amendment and, thus, many legal methods by which the police can search your person or your vehicle without a warrant. I think the best advice is contained in the first post; be respectful, don't consent to a search (if you don't want to consent to a search), and don't give them a reason to search you in the first place. If you do consent to a search, and change your mind, revoke your consent.

[buster1960]

I'm a long haul truck driver and have been for 30+ years. Hypothetically lets say I have a handgun safe bolted down in the sleeper area of the truck COMPLETELY out of reach from the drivers seat. I would keep my spare cash and a handgun in there. I am stopped frequently at the scales and on the roadside and inspected. I have never been asked by a LEO if I have any weapons in the truck. If I was asked permission to search the truck, I would polity refuse a search of the drivers or "residence" compartment of the truck for any reason. Being that the gun is in a safe bolted to the truck in the "Residence area" of the truck, how does the law handle this? I realize that different states have different laws and I have to abide by them. There is nothing in the FMCSA (the laws truckers live by) that prohibits carrying a firearm for personal defense. I have asked the FMCSA this question.
I will soon have a Florida nonresident CCl.
If asked by a LEO for permission to search and I polity refuse and then was asked again, I would simply say that I have been on the road for a while and don't want anyone but my wife digging around in my dirty undies and then polity refuse a search again.

[Ostrey]

Originally Posted by Ironchef

I am under the impression that cops do NOT need probable cause to search your car..especially after the patriot act. They can search for any reason they deem necessary. Am I wrong?

Three ways a Police Officer can search your vehicle:

1. With permission

2. Probable Cause ( they see, smell or you admit to illegal substance or items)

3. Pre-inventory search if your car is getting towed due to your arrest

[TheBerryMan]

I'm a farmer. And we all carry firearms in our trucks. We've had every animal imaginable sneak into our ranches. including rattlesnakes, coyote, boar, seen bear tracks and lets not forget about the mountain lions that have been known to get close enough our workers see them. I would never take an animal unless necessary, which ive only done a couple times. I went out and bought wild boar tags and got me a couple of them. I scare them off most of the time.

[highspeednodrag]

Originally Posted by Ironchef

So wait a second...reading this thread brings up a question for me...

When I'm pulled over in my honda minivan, wife and kids inside, and upon handing my license and registration to the cop, and he quickly asks if i have any guns in the vehicle (and I do, legally stowed), how do I answer? Do I say "I don't want to answer that question" because he doesn't have PC to ask or pursue a search?

I know it's not something asked at a traffic stop, but if it is....what's safe protocol regardless of what firearm I'm carrying?

Ironchef asked a very good question on 01-02-2008 that has not been answered, at least in this thread.

The question is in the context of a LEO car stop of a person with no wants or warrants - for example a minor mechanical problem like a failed taillight.

I have a 100% purely clean criminal and traffic record and was also asked this once. I had been safely weaving around some deep potholes caused by construction work, was pulled over and immediately the officer asked, "Do you have any guns in the car or anything I should know about?" I had no guns or anything else "of interest" in the car, said so, and he let me go after I explained that I was avoid damaging potholes.

But the question remains, how should that question be answered?
If you have gun(s) in the car and the officer asks if you have them responding with anything other than "yes" would be a lie. Let's say there was no probable cause to search the car or even ask about guns.

If a LEO asks, "Do you have any guns in the car or anything I should know about?" does that require an honest answer?
Is it a question to which a LEO has the right to an honest answer?


What are prudent ways to response to this question?

By the way, I do have an old M1A that has the muzzle flash hidder that makes mine an "assault weapon" and mine is a duly registered assault weapon (RAW). My understanding is that my California driver's license and on-line law enforcement records show that I am a gun owner and that this information pops up on the LEO's in-car computer in a car stoop. That may have been why the LEO asked about guns.

[artoaster]

That's easy. The answer If a LEO asks, "Do you have any guns in the car or anything I should know about?" is:

No, there is nothing in my car you need to know about.

And, when he frames another question concerning guns you simply ask, "why, am I being detained?"

When he says no that should be the natural end of that conversation because he is just fishing with his questions and doesn't intend to search you anyway.

[myk]

So...when an LEO pulls up our information, they can see that we're registered gun owners?

[TheBerryMan]

Yes they know we own firearms. My dad has ben asked before in LA county.

[myk]

Originally Posted by TheBerryMan

Yes they know we own firearms. My dad has ben asked before in LA county.

So if we're ever in a traffic stop at what point do they know this information? When they run our vehicle plates? Our ID's? Kinda defeats the point of not volunteering information about whether we have firearms in the car or not, right?

[Sublime_AC]

Never talk to the police.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

[lanwarrior]

Originally Posted by myk

So if we're ever in a traffic stop at what point do they know this information? When they run our vehicle plates? Our ID's? Kinda defeats the point of not volunteering information about whether we have firearms in the car or not, right?

Why do they NEED to ask if we have firearm in the car, even when they KNOW we have a registered firearm? That's the question.

Are they threatened just the fact the laptop n their car state that I have a gun? What if I am a 300 lbs world champion UFC? Are they going to feel threatened too?

[TheBerryMan]

Idk how they know we are gun owners but they do. my dad was pulled over. cop asked him if he had any guns in the car. he said no. then the cop told him that it came up that he was the owner of SEVERAL firearms.

[Galli1565]

All I have to say is "totality of the circumstances" 95% of the time I will not ask if there are guns in the car. Unless you have Remington/Winchester/magpul/bcm...etc stickers on your car, are wearing camo, have hunting/shooting gear or seem like someone who would be armed. Even at that if you say, "yes I have_________ guns in my car" I will probably ask two questions. Are they loaded? Are they in a locked container away from the cab?

Ill run you, make sure you aren't a murder suspect, have warrants, are on parole or probation. Then do my paperwork and send you on your way, I might inspect I might not. Just because I can doesn't mean I do 100% of the time. It's not the end of the world, we aren't going to take your guns away and lock you up. Unless you earn it, it's really that simple.

Advice: laminate and carry the AW flow chart with your rifle. I printed them and laminated a bunch of copies for the guys I work with. Stuff like that goes a long way.

[A.M.]

Can someone explain what an OLL is exactly? I've tried to search but am more confused.....

[artoaster]

Easy. Off List Lower. Look up California Penal Code 12276.

[ursusarticus]

Originally Posted by PBRStreeetgang

I hope to not make this too long so please bare with me. I am a retired cop, and avid gun owner. And as a LE I would like to put in my two cents. I have always been a good guy cop. I liked to treat everyone with respect until they did something that warranted my not doing so. However, with the advent of the “officer safety doctrine” and the Patriot Act, our department policy became a very simple one. Everyone was asked, traffic stop or FI, “do you have any weapons.” If someone responded “yes, they are in the trunk” I generally never asked another question about it, with the exception on the occasional stop where the individual(s) elaborated on what he/she had in the trunk, and we ended up having a nice conversation on the accuracy, and affordability of the weapon(s).

Now before I elaborate on the next paragraph please keep in mind a couple of things. First, I am lot older now, and have a much different attitude, and although it was my job, and stealing a line from “Cool Hand Luke” “calling it your job boss don’t make it right” at the time I was doing what our department dictated, and what I was taught.

I had on one occasion a person say something along the lines of “I have nothing illegal in my vehicle.” I asked him if he was LE or an Attorney, and how he was so certain that he had nothing illegal in his automobile. Again he stated he had nothing illegal in the vehicle. I felt that this was being evasive, and as such gave me reasonable suspicion to search his immediate area within the vehicle. Within the vehicle I found 2 spent 9mm casings. Since we were stopped in an area that had a “history” of violent crime, which one can argue is almost every major city in the US at some place and at some point, I felt I now had probable cause to search the rest of the vehicle.

Long story short, we went to court, the court found I was justified in my reasonable suspicion because “of what could be considered an evasive answer to my questions” and my probable cause search was justified because the “spent shell casings were consistent with type and caliber of known assaults in the area”.

The bottom line is two fold. First, if LE wants to look, they will find a way. It is really not that hard, and especially in the current political and world climate, it is almost too easy I am sorry to say. Second and ultimately the only real thing that matters avoid the problem and have nothing illegal in your vehicle. It is really the only defense you have in the long run.

We can write all day here in this forum about how to avoid problems with the police, be it OLL, concealed carry, or whatever. It really is about the facts. If you are breaking the law, you are getting a ticket, or going to jail. Do the innocent find themselves in bad situations unjustifiably? Yes it happens, and I am hopeful that the legal system, flawed in places it might be, can and will protect them.

Know the laws, obey them, and work to educate those who do not, and maybe we as gun owners can one day no longer be looked upon as potential “bad guys”, especially in a society where it is supposed to be our right to keep and bear them.

This is what our state has come too. To have any reasonable prospect of going to a rifle range to engage in a perfectly (for now) legal activity You are better off having your range buddy who is a member of the Kalifornia state bar next to you in your vehicle as you drive to the range.

[Ninety]

Originally Posted by Galli1565

All I have to say is "totality of the circumstances" 95% of the time I will not ask if there are guns in the car. Unless you have Remington/Winchester/magpul/bcm...etc stickers on your car, are wearing camo, have hunting/shooting gear or seem like someone who would be armed. Even at that if you say, "yes I have_________ guns in my car" I will probably ask two questions. Are they loaded? Are they in a locked container away from the cab?

Ill run you, make sure you aren't a murder suspect, have warrants, are on parole or probation. Then do my paperwork and send you on your way, I might inspect I might not. Just because I can doesn't mean I do 100% of the time. It's not the end of the world, we aren't going to take your guns away and lock you up. Unless you earn it, it's really that simple.

Advice: laminate and carry the AW flow chart with your rifle. I printed them and laminated a bunch of copies for the guys I work with. Stuff like that goes a long way.

What if you are on probation? Informal . Obviously it gives you the right to search and what not, but would it incline you to do so?

Great topic btw thanks to everyone for all the input.

[Eric B]

I eight years I haven't seen a search and seizure clause with informal probation.

[profbri]

If you are driving over the speed limit, even if it is with the flow of traffic, and get pulled over, the speeding gives LE PC, doesn't it?

[artoaster]

Originally Posted by profbri

If you are driving over the speed limit, even if it is with the flow of traffic, and get pulled over, the speeding gives LE PC, doesn't it?

Probable cause for speeding? Search vehicle, no.

[hartins]

Originally Posted by artoaster

That's easy. The answer If a LEO asks, "Do you have any guns in the car or anything I should know about?" is:

No, there is nothing in my car you need to know about.

And, when he frames another question concerning guns you simply ask, "why, am I being detained?"

When he says no that should be the natural end of that conversation because he is just fishing with his questions and doesn't intend to search you anyway.

This may be true as far as it goes. You could also just crack open the window and slide out your CDL, Registration and Proof of Insurance, and say absolutely nothing. However, if the reason for the stop progresses beyond the VC violation you may have a problem.

There is no need to offer information that will lead to more questions. But conduct yourself in a polite non challenging manner. Displaying any "attitude", either excessively aggressive or defensive, will only lead to more inquiry.

Of course there is much to be said of knowing that you are in complete compliance in the first place. And if there is a direct question with no wiggle room regarding transporting a firearm, and you have a firearm on board, be truthful and direct. Again, there is no need to offer unsolicited information. But do not lie; that will likely cause you even more grief.