Hard/Fast rules for OLL travel

[Piper]

I don't know about anyone else here, but I also carry a digital recorder and a camera that allows me to record up to 3 hours of video. If I am pulled over and my vehicle is searched without my permission, I intend to use it to back my formal citizens complaint. Cops are less likely to do anything dumb if there is a chance that paper will go in their jacket.

Oh and btw, since the cop has no expectation of privacy, you don't have to tell him/her that you are recording.

[outersquare]

Originally Posted by Ironchef

When I'm pulled over in my honda minivan, wife and kids inside, and upon handing my license and registration to the cop, and he quickly asks if i have any guns in the vehicle (and I do, legally stowed), how do I answer? Do I say "I don't want to answer that question" because he doesn't have PC to ask or pursue a search?

I know it's not something asked at a traffic stop, but if it is....what's safe protocol regardless of what firearm I'm carrying?

yes, someone please address this

[metalhead357]

Originally Posted by outersquare

yes, someone please address this

Question of the century.

Number 1...Dont lie.

Beyond that? I've always just told 'em. It sbeen about a 60/40 split...60% just asking where it is, what it is and asking if its unloaded and then droping the subject. The other 40% at the mention of it want to see it and confirm its unloaded.............

Dont want the hassle? Short of not driving..... I dunno.... Smash a blood pack on yer face so when the cop comes up and sees ya' you can say you're off to go get cleaned up!!!!!!!!!!!!

[outersquare]

what if you say that you're not obligated to answer his questions?

[artherd]

I say "I have no contraband of any sort in my vehicle." Most see this as a verbose engineer's response and don't press it.

If they do press it "I said do you have any weapons?"

I would then respond "I believe I already answered your question, moving on..."

[duenor]

Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS

Cops don't ask everybody they stop about guns, don't give them a reason to ask. If they do ask, just look at them funny.

Are you sure about that?
I was stopped last february 12th.
I have NO stickers on my car. I do not wear camo or anything like that. I drive a very humble little blue car. Nothing inside my car's cabin indicated any sort of firearms activity.

yet the very first question the cop asked, before even my license and registration, was: "Sir, do you have any firearms inside your car?"

I am 100% certain that they ran my plates and found that I own either handguns, rifles, or an 03 FFL (I've got all of the above).

[Liberty1]

Originally Posted by Piper

I don't know about anyone else here, but I also carry a digital recorder and a camera...

Oh and btw, since the cop has no expectation of privacy, you don't have to tell him/her that you are recording.

+1

I cannot stress enough that having those should be as important as having gas in your tank. Your very liberty may hinge on proving your side of the story! You spend thousands on your guns. Spend a few hundred on TWO recording devises one on your person and one to leave in your vehicle if you are removed and sat in a patrol car. Hopefully one will survive to make it into court if needed and will contain your very clear statement "I don't consent to a search of myself or my car, but I will comply with all lawful orders".

If they have PC you're going to get searched any way. If they don't, you may just give yourself a get out of jail quick card with a good civil case against them too.

Calling your voice mail or home phone answering mashine with your cell phone and having it on speaker is also a good way to document the encounter.

http://www.flexyourrights.org/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

[packnrat]

Originally Posted by Ironchef

I am under the impression that cops do NOT need probable cause to search your car..especially after the patriot act. They can search for any reason they deem necessary. Am I wrong?

best way to prevent a pc search is to have all out of site, i cover all in the back of the car with a tarp at all times, even just work stuff, as it also helps keep the eyes of the bg from knowing if there is anything to steal.

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by blackrazor

The problem with this is that getting arrested for mere ownership of an OLL would literally make my day. I would *love* to get a chance to rake some fascist control freak over the coals for making an unlawful arrest. I would file so many vicious lawsuits, both against the department and the arresting officer himself, that the simple act of trying to defend himself would devestate him financially and emotionally.

I never put my OLL's in a case, and most of the time I just throw them in the passenger seat on my way to the range. But, so far no luck.

You must be rich. Can I have some money?

ETA: Try myspace.

[Soldier415]

Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS

ETA: Try myspace.

[metalhead357]

Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS

You must be rich. Can I have some money?

ETA: Try myspace.

LOL! thats what I was thinking. Heck...I'll fight if it comes my way...but i AINT GOING LOOKING for it!!!!!!!

[five.five-six]

Originally Posted by blackrazor

The problem with this is that getting arrested for mere ownership of an OLL would literally make my day. I would *love* to get a chance to rake some fascist control freak over the coals for making an unlawful arrest. I would file so many vicious lawsuits, both against the department and the arresting officer himself, that the simple act of trying to defend himself would devestate him financially and emotionally.

I never put my OLL's in a case, and most of the time I just throw them in the passenger seat on my way to the range. But, so far no luck.

carefull what you ask for, if you get it, I may kick down a C-note or two to help you out, but, it is a long hard fight against city hall

[Solidmch]

Originally Posted by Ironchef

I am under the impression that cops do NOT need probable cause to search your car..especially after the patriot act. They can search for any reason they deem necessary. Am I wrong?

You are absolutly wrong. However they can inspect any firearm that is in your car.

[deleted by PC police]

If they do take your gun can you demand a receipt that describes the condition of the gun, make and model number?

[five.five-six]

oh you will get a recipt

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by Stick

If they do take your gun can you demand a receipt that describes the condition of the gun, make and model number?

Yes, well not condition, but you can ask them to note any damages. This should be done automatically, but it may take them a day or so to provide it if you have 20+ guns. You may not be in a position to "demand" anything though...

[artherd]

Originally Posted by blackrazor

The problem with this is that getting arrested for mere ownership of an OLL would literally make my day. I would *love* to get a chance to rake some fascist control freak over the coals for making an unlawful arrest. I would file so many vicious lawsuits, both against the department and the arresting officer himself, that the simple act of trying to defend himself would devestate him financially and emotionally.

I never put my OLL's in a case, and most of the time I just throw them in the passenger seat on my way to the range. But, so far no luck.

Blackrazor, I'm with you, except they won't oblige us. They know we will are not only able but quite willing to make it the fight of their lives, which they will LOOSE.

Instead, they try to single out people they think lack the means and wherewithal to defend themselves, hoping to luck into making new case law.

It's disgusting.

But it's not going to work as long as the calguns community stays together like we have.

-Ben.

[recshooter]

I see this is an older thread, but it brought up a few questions for me:

Legally speaking, does an OLL constitute a firearm (I know for DROS it does, but how about if asked at a traffic stop, do you have any firearms in the car...)? If the LEO asked about weapons, then OLL has got to be no...hopefully?

What about if you remover your upper...one friend drives the upper, one the complete lower on way to range?---this is kind of paranoid thinking, but I am curious none the less. Is this a firearm, weapon. I guess what I'm getting at is if there exists separate legal definitions for the word "firearm" (eg. one for DROS purposes, and one for possession purposes). Furthermore, I mean, a weapon could be anything (tire iron) so LEO will likely ask specifically about firearms.

Also, at a traffic stop can't you just provide ID and subsequently exercise your right to remain silent--hand 'em one of those little ACLU cards if that is your thing?

Hope I'm not rambling too much, or imparting blows with a blunt object upon a deceased member of the equine species, but this thread brought up many questions for me. Thanks for reading.

[blackhawk411]

I have a Jeep so the gun case is clearly visible. Do they still need PC to search the vehicle/case? As long as the case is visibly locked, they cannot do anything right?

[Matt C]

You are under no legal obligation to tell an officer about firearms that may be in your vehicle, but there is no reason to lie to him. Just say something like, "There is NOTHING illegal in this vehicle officer." If he asks again, say, "with all respect I already answered that." Don't give him anything else.

BTW all of this is in the FIRST post (which is the point of this thread).

Originally Posted by recshooter

I see this is an older thread, but it brought up a few questions for me:

Legally speaking, does an OLL constitute a firearm (I know for DROS it does, but how about if asked at a traffic stop, do you have any firearms in the car...)? If the LEO asked about weapons, then OLL has got to be no...hopefully?

What about if you remover your upper...one friend drives the upper, one the complete lower on way to range?---this is kind of paranoid thinking, but I am curious none the less. Is this a firearm, weapon. I guess what I'm getting at is if there exists separate legal definitions for the word "firearm" (eg. one for DROS purposes, and one for possession purposes). Furthermore, I mean, a weapon could be anything (tire iron) so LEO will likely ask specifically about firearms.

Also, at a traffic stop can't you just provide ID and subsequently exercise your right to remain silent--hand 'em one of those little ACLU cards if that is your thing?

Hope I'm not rambling too much, or imparting blows with a blunt object upon a deceased member of the equine species, but this thread brought up many questions for me. Thanks for reading.

[recshooter]

...Reply erased...

[anthonyca]

Does anyone have links to some good small recording devices that can be activated in a vehicle stop? Video and audio and prob just audio to be kept on person.

[Matt C]

btt to get out of archive

[HkUSP45]

...but when they say "Weapons". it could mean any kind of weapons.
They never ask, do you have any guns in the car. It's always weapon. A loose terms. Trying to get you to say yes.

Originally Posted by metalhead357

Good advice to a point.....

If the officer asks though if you have weapons in the car? The Penal Code already GIVES the officer the authority to perform a *safety check* and does not need your OK......

So lying to the cop aint an option...if he smells it out and does the search you're screwed; So what's the best way to handle THAT specific scenario?

[diginit]

A LEO can preform a safety check only if you answer yes to the question "Do you have any weapons in the vehicle" Otherwise he needs probable cause, Your permission to search, or a warrant. It is an invasion of privacy otherwise.

[socalgunrunner]

Originally Posted by Ford8N

A sad commentary about this state when we are scared of the police when we have done nothing illegal.

I'm not scared...I just don't like them.

[Douglas711]

Ok weapon, anything can be used as a weapon. Can you legally say no to the question, do you have any weapons in the car? If you have a baseball bat, that can be used as a weapon, are you supposed to say yes to having a weapon if you have a bat?

Originally Posted by diginit

A LEO can preform a safety check only if you answer yes to the question "Do you have any weapons in the vehicle" Otherwise he needs probable cause, Your permission to search, or a warrant. It is an invasion of privacy otherwise.

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by blackrazor

Just don't talk to the cops about anything, ever, under any circumstances. Simple rules, something everyone should have learned in Kindergarten. It's really not that hard guys.

That's good enough to go in the OP.

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS

It seems there has been another very avoidable arrest related to the OLL issue. While we know our firearms are legal, local police may not. So here are BWO's rules on how not to get arrested when traveling with an OLR or any firearm.

1. Don't break traffic laws while traveling with OLLs.

2.Do not have firearms or obvious firearm cases in plain sight. Do not have other items/stickers/clothing on your person or vehicle that would indicate firearm possession. This is a good idea in any case, you don't want to advertise to criminals either.

3. If stopped, signal and pull over promptly to a safe spot. Remain seated with your hands on the wheel. If it is night/dark, turn on your interior light and do not reach for anything (including wallet or registration/insurance papers) intill instructed to do so by the peace officer. When he/she asks, inform him/her that you will be getting them out of x area and ask if it's ok. Be VERY polite and sincere. Do not make excuses for whatever violation you are accused of, nor should you admit to any violation. Simply remain silent, or state something like "I understand officer/deputy/patrolman."

3.This is MOST FREAKING IMPORTANT! If asked any questions about the contents of your vehicle, or if you will permit a search, the ONLY answer is NO. You will not tell him what's in there as it is your private stuff, and you will not let him search for the same reasons. Say so respectfully not arrogantly. You never know what is really in your car unless you watch it 24/7 and no one is in it but you. Why invite trouble? Of course if you are carrying OLLs, than you already know there could be trouble.

While some OLL arrests were due mainly to unusual circumstances many others came from simple traffic stops and probably could have been avoided. Also, following the above is likely as anything to get you out of a ticket for whatever you were stopped for, since you will probably be the most pleasant traffic stop that cop has had all day.

ETA:

and

Originally Posted by blackrazor

Just don't talk to the cops about anything, ever, under any circumstances. Simple rules, something everyone should have learned in Kindergarten. It's really not that hard guys.

[Matt C]

Ok, something is screwy here, can't edit posts... Can a mod put this thread back in the non-archive section? Thx.

[VaderSpade]

I plan to use this answer the next time I'm asked.

"There is NOTHING illegal in this vehicle officer."

However the last time I was asked, I said yes but it's safely stowed. The officer ask if he could see it, and I told him; "if you have the right I guess I can't say no, BUT I do not wish to give up any of my civil rights. You may do nothing that interferes with my civil rights" He then ask if it was loaded, I told him no and he dropped the issue. I could tell he was not completely clear on what he could and couldn't do and because I used the words civil rights he figured I knew more than him.

[GP3]

What if they flat out ask if there are guns in the car while you are legally transporting an OLL?

[AndrewMendez]

Originally Posted by GP3

What if they flat out ask if there are guns in the car while you are legally transporting an OLL?

5th Amendment!

[GP3]

Originally Posted by GP3

What if they flat out ask if there are guns in the car while you are legally transporting an OLL?

(I was lazy and didn't read the whole thread)

Answer: "There is nothing illegal in the car". Do not lie.

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by GP3

(I was lazy and didn't read the whole thread)

Answer: "There is nothing illegal in the car". Do not lie.

Correct. If he asks again, "Respectfully, I already answered that question".

[grahlaika]

Can simply telling an LEO that you don't have anything illegal in the vehicle constitute probable cause? Wouldn't that automatically raise suspicion and give them a reason to place you in their squad car while they search your vehicle? I mean if I were to be transporting drugs and I got stopped, I'd tell the LEO I wasn't carrying drugs, right?

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by grahlaika

Can simply telling an LEO that you don't have anything illegal in the vehicle constitute probable cause? Wouldn't that automatically raise suspicion and give them a reason to place you in their squad car while they search your vehicle? I mean if I were to be transporting drugs and I got stopped, I'd tell the LEO I wasn't carrying drugs, right?

No, that's not probable cause. In any case if it comes down to it a court will decide, and the bottom line is you don't have any better options.

[boxbro]

Make sure you know the difference between probable cause and reasonable suspicion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion

[Bagelthief]

So basically, just to make sure I got it down, if you have EVERYTHING and ANYTHING gun related in your trunk, and you answer "I have nothing illegal in my car officer;" he can NOT search your car right?

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by Bagelthief

So basically, just to make sure I got it down, if you have EVERYTHING and ANYTHING gun related in your trunk, and you answer "I have nothing illegal in my car officer;" he can NOT search your car right?

It's not so much that he can't as it is that you are giving him no legal cause to do so.