Hard/Fast rules for OLL travel

[Matt C]

It seems there has been another very avoidable arrest related to the OLL issue. While we know our firearms are legal, local police may not. So here are BWO's rules on how not to get arrested when traveling with an OLR or any firearm.

1. Don't break traffic laws while traveling with OLLs.

2.Do not have firearms or obvious firearm cases in plain sight. Do not have other items/stickers/clothing on your person or vehicle that would indicate firearm possession. This is a good idea in any case, you don't want to advertise to criminals either.

3. If stopped, signal and pull over promptly to a safe spot. Remain seated with your hands on the wheel. If it is night/dark, turn on your interior light and do not reach for anything (including wallet or registration/insurance papers) intill instructed to do so by the peace officer. When he/she asks, inform him/her that you will be getting them out of x area and ask if it's ok. Be VERY polite and sincere. Do not make excuses for whatever violation you are accused of, nor should you admit to any violation. Simply remain silent, or state something like "I understand officer/deputy/patrolman."

3.This is MOST FREAKING IMPORTANT! If asked any questions about the contents of your vehicle, or if you will permit a search, the ONLY answer is NO. You will not tell him what's in there as it is your private stuff, and you will not let him search for the same reasons. Say so respectfully not arrogantly. You never know what is really in your car unless you watch it 24/7 and no one is in it but you. Why invite trouble? Of course if you are carrying OLLs, than you already know there could be trouble.

While some OLL arrests were due mainly to unusual circumstances many others came from simple traffic stops and probably could have been avoided. Also, following the above is likely as anything to get you out of a ticket for whatever you were stopped for, since you will probably be the most pleasant traffic stop that cop has had all day.

ETA:

Originally Posted by AYEAREFIFTEEN

One other thing to watch out for would be if an LEO were to ask "do you mind if I search you vehicle?" Your first instinct would be to respond with a big fat "no" but now you have just told the LEO that you do not mind if they search your vehicle. Some people are naturally nervous or uneasy when confronted by law enforcement and can very easily make a mistake when responding to their questions.

An attorney once told me the best response to give a LEO when confronted with any kind of question asking for consent to search a vehicle would be "You may not search my vehicle." Simple, to the point, and very little chance to be misconstrued.

[Soldier415]

The above is excellent information.

[TonyNorCal]

This is an excellent post. Great advice.

I agree that living in California one should think through how they'd handle a traffic stop while transporting firearms. It's sad that such is the case, but that's reality.

This doesn't mean you should get paranoid or obsess, but having thought over what you'd say (or not say) and how you'd act is good idea.

I just know from past traffic stops (no firearms on board) that treating an officer with respect and remaining calm is the best way to go.

[M. Sage]

Stuck the thread for you.

Know your rights, and know your answers ahead of time. Role-play it out with someone if you have to.

Where is that ACLU video when you need it?

[Ironchef]

I am under the impression that cops do NOT need probable cause to search your car..especially after the patriot act. They can search for any reason they deem necessary. Am I wrong?

[mecam]

They need PC to search without permission.

Originally Posted by Ironchef

I am under the impression that cops do NOT need probable cause to search your car..especially after the patriot act. They can search for any reason they deem necessary. Am I wrong?

[M. Sage]

Yes, they need PC, a warrant, or permission to search your car. They'll tell you otherwise trying to get permission, though.

[bwiese]

Good points all, by someone who's BTDT.

There's no need to push things just to brazenly assert RKBA. Discretion is sensibility.

I will quote (approximately) 'AR15fan' (a SoCal cop on AR15.COM): "It's legal to drive with a dead hooker in your trunk if your taillights and turn signals work OK."

[Ford8N]

A sad commentary about this state when we are scared of the police when we have done nothing illegal.

[N6ATF]

Originally Posted by Ironchef

I am under the impression that cops do NOT need probable cause to search your car..especially after the patriot act. They can search for any reason they deem necessary. Am I wrong?

They can SAY they can do anything... doesn't mean they actually CAN do anything.

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by Ford8N

A sad commentary about this state when we are scared of the police when we have done nothing illegal.

Who is scared? This is about being prudent.

[metalhead357]

Good advice to a point.....

If the officer asks though if you have weapons in the car? The Penal Code already GIVES the officer the authority to perform a *safety check* and does not need your OK......

So lying to the cop aint an option...if he smells it out and does the search you're screwed; So what's the best way to handle THAT specific scenario?

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by metalhead357

Good advice to a point.....

If the officer asks though if you have weapons in the car? The Penal Code already GIVES the officer the authority to perform a *safety check* and does not need your OK......

So lying to the cop aint an option...if he smells it out and does the search you're screwed; So what's the best way to handle THAT specific scenario?

What PC?

And I never said lie to the cops...

[M. Sage]

It's in 12031, IIRC. It's a total BS law that violates 4th Amendment.

Found it: 12031(e). Only applies if they have reasonable cause to believe that you have a firearm. Basically, they have to see a gun, or a case that obviously contains one.

In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for
the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in
a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this
section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this
section.

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by M. Sage

It's in 12031, IIRC. It's a total BS law that violates 4th Amendment.

Found it: 12031(e). Only applies if they have reasonable cause to believe that you have a firearm. Basically, they have to see a gun, or a case that obviously contains one.

(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.

That's not even exactly allowing a search in itself. But in any case, this does not allow search without PC.

[M. Sage]

You're right, it doesn't allow a search, it allows an inspection. However, expect the inspection to turn into a search of your rifle: checking the serial, type and configuration. Case law has been posted that officers can check your gun out if they spot something that likely holds a firearm. Disobedience results in arrest on suspicion of unlawfully carrying a loaded firearm, at which point it will be searched.

I really hate this law, and don't plan on giving consent.

Possession of a gun case doesn't always equal possession of a gun. In any case, possession of a gun doesn't equal probability of a crime (on its own, anyway).

[Matt C]

All of which leads you to Rule #2

Originally Posted by M. Sage

You're right, it doesn't allow a search, it allows an inspection. However, expect the inspection to turn into a search of your rifle: checking the serial, type and configuration. Case law has been posted that officers can check your gun out if they spot something that likely holds a firearm. Disobedience results in arrest on suspicion of unlawfully carrying a loaded firearm, at which point it will be searched.

I really hate this law, and don't plan on giving consent.

Possession of a gun case doesn't always equal possession of a gun. In any case, possession of a gun doesn't equal probability of a crime (on its own, anyway).

[metalhead357]

Thanks for the followup gents.

And sorry...NO, I was not trying to imply you said lie to the cops: Quite the contrary.... Lying is a sure fire way to make things worse.

I've just always wondered what the procedure was to avoid this....short of Bill's infamous statement about guns & gloveboxes

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by metalhead357

Thanks for the followup gents.

And sorry...NO, I was not trying to imply you said lie to the cops: Quite the contrary.... Lying is a sure fire way to make things worse.

I've just always wondered what the procedure was to avoid this....short of Bill's infamous statement about guns & gloveboxes

Cops don't ask everybody they stop about guns, don't give them a reason to ask. If they do ask, just look at them funny.

[OutlawDon]

Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS

Cops don't ask everybody they stop about guns, don't give them a reason to ask.

Exactly. Unless you look like someone's that suspect, a cop is not going to ask if you have any firearms. Of course, if you are rolling in your beat up truck with gun related bumper stickers all over, wearing camo/tactical gear, and reeking of gunpowder, you've pinned yourself. But everyone rolls differently with their own style, so YMMV.

[AYEAREFIFTEEN]

Very good post BWO, and welcome back.

Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS

3.This is MOST FREAKING IMPORTANT! If asked any questions about the contents of your vehicle, or if you will permit a search, the ONLY answer is NO. You will not tell him what's in there as it is your private stuff, and you will not let him search for the same reasons. Say so respectfully not arrogantly. You never know what is really in your car unless you watch it 24/7 and no one is in it but you. Why invite trouble? Of course if you are carrying OLLs, than you already know there could be trouble.

One other thing to watch out for would be if an LEO were to ask "do you mind if I search you vehicle?" Your first instinct would be to respond with a big fat "no" but now you have just told the LEO that you do not mind if they search your vehicle. Some people are naturally nervous or uneasy when confronted by law enforcement and can very easily make a mistake when responding to their questions.

An attorney once told me the best response to give a LEO when confronted with any kind of question asking for consent to search a vehicle would be "You may not search my vehicle." Simple, to the point, and very little chance to be misconstrued.

[Matt C]

Good point, I will add it above.

Originally Posted by AYEAREFIFTEEN

Very good post BWO, and welcome back.

One other thing to watch out for would be if an LEO were to ask "do you mind if I search you vehicle?" Your first instinct would be to respond with a big fat "no" but now you have just told the LEO that you do not mind if they search your vehicle. Some people are naturally nervous or uneasy when confronted by law enforcement and can very easily make a mistake when responding to their questions.

An attorney once told me the best response to give a LEO when confronted with any kind of question asking for consent to search a vehicle would be "You may not search my vehicle." Simple, to the point, and very little chance to be misconstrued.

[metalhead357]

Originally Posted by OutlawDon

Exactly. Unless you look like someone's that suspect, a cop is not going to ask if you have any firearms. Of course, if you are rolling in your beat up truck with gun related bumper stickers all over, wearing camo/tactical gear, and reeking of gunpowder, you've pinned yourself. But everyone rolls differently with their own style, so YMMV.

LOL! Maybe THAT'S why I ALWAYS get asked. I cant remember a time where I didn't get asked.....even when riding my motorcycle.

[SteveH]

Add these.

1. Pay your vehicle registration. If your registration is expired over 6-months the police may tow the vehicle under CVC 22651(o)(1). It will be "inventoried" subsequent to towing and anything found during the inventory inspection is admissable in court.

2. Renew your drivers license on time. An expired drivers license is the same thing as an unlicensed driver CVC 12500(a). An unlicensed, or expired, drivers vehicle can be towed under CVC 22651(p) leading to an inventory inspection.

3. Pay your tickets. If you dont your drivers license may be suspended and your vehicle can be towed under CVC 22651(p) or impounded under CVC 14602.6(a). again leading to an inventory of the vehicle contents.

The best way to answer any request to search your vehicle is "I do not consent to a search of my vehicle." Said nice and clear so its captured on the officers tape recorder or patrol video system. simple yes or no answers may be misinterprited as explained earlier in this thread.

[ldivinag]

so this is wrong?

cop: did you know why i stopped you?

me: people complained about the blood from the dead hooker in my truck, leaking out????

[visualnewbie]

Originally Posted by OutlawDon

Exactly. Unless you look like someone's that suspect, a cop is not going to ask if you have any firearms. Of course, if you are rolling in your beat up truck with gun related bumper stickers all over, wearing camo/tactical gear, and reeking of gunpowder, you've pinned yourself. But everyone rolls differently with their own style, so YMMV.

Everytime I've been pulled over, they've asked if I have any "guns" to me. Funny thing is, I've never been asked for a search or been given a ticket from all those times I've been pulled over. I also don't drive a truck or have any stickers on my car. Maybe it's the way I look...

[MudCamper]

Also very important is to know the laws, and carry documents to back that up:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=74449

The linked thread includes links to may good documents to carry with your rifles.

[69Mach1]

One new thing to add starting this year gents. Don't use your cell while driving. Handsfree only.

[FinweElensar]

Originally Posted by 69Mach1

One new thing to add starting this year gents. Don't use your cell while driving. Handsfree only.

Damn, I thought only minors were prohibited. [Mas Puto] I need a bluetooth headset [/Mas Puto]

[toolman9000]

Originally Posted by 69Mach1

One new thing to add starting this year gents. Don't use your cell while driving. Handsfree only.

Not until July 1st, 2008... so we have seven months of driving with a cell phone left.

Transcript of Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger Signing Legislation Requiring Drivers to Use Hands Free Devices

Time: 11:15 a.m.
Date: Friday, September 15, 2006
Event: Oakland Hilton, California Room, 1 Hegenberger Rd, Oakland, CA

GOVERNOR SCHWARZENEGGER:

Hello, everybody. It’s great to be here in Oakland. And first, before I talk about the bill signing, I just want to give you some good news, because I just heard this morning that California in August has created 37,000 new jobs. Now, just to show you how huge this is, and how fantastic this is, the rest of country, the whole United States, created 125,000 jobs. So we’re talking about California is creating almost 30 percent of all the jobs in the entire nation. So as you can see, the economy is back again, it’s booming. Our revenues every month are much greater than anticipated. So I’m very excited about that.

Now let’s get to the bill. Today we will be signing SB 1613. This is the hands-free cell phone bill that will save lives by making our roads safer. And I want to say thank you to Senator Simitian for his great, great work on this bill and for working with my office on this bill to perfect the bill. I want to thank him also for his great commitment to (IA) California, and to make our roads safe. He has been really extraordinary, to protect the people of California and I want to say thank you for that.

The simple fact is that it is really dangerous when you talk on your cell phone and drive at the same time. Hand-held cell phones are responsible for 1,000 accidents every month, and we have seen that there are very dangerous situations sometimes. We want to avoid that, and this is why we have here this bill. This bill doesn’t mean that you can’t talk on a cell phone; it just means that you should not hold a hand-held cell phone, you should use a headset or use a speaker system.

Also, there is an exception here that if you have to make an emergency call, then you can use the hand-held phone. And also, what is important is that this law will go into effect on July 1 of 2008. There will be a $20 fine if you’re caught the first time using a cell phone, and then $50 after that.

I think it is very important for people to know that even though the law begins in 2008, July of 2008, stop using your cell phones right now, because you’re putting people at risk. You just look away for a second, or for a split second, from what’s going on in front of you, and at that moment a child could be running out, and you could kill this child just because you were busy looking down and dialing on your cell phone. So pay attention to that, take this seriously. We want to really save lives here.

Thank you very much again, and.... blah blah blah

[Diablo]

Excellent post!!

[Scarecrow Repair]

Originally Posted by toolman9000

Not until July 1st, 2008... so we have seven months of driving with a cell phone left.

Well, six ....

[MedSpec65]

I always employ the procedures Blackwater Ops suggested when I get pulled over. The last two times I was pulled over I was let go with a warning. No stickers, cases or gun accessories are ever visible in my vehicle. The subject of guns has never even come up after many years of driving and scores of stops. I usually keep an unloaded pistol locked inside a pistol case in the back of my hatchback (covered), with loaded mags stashed around the driver's compartment (No, not the glovebox). Although it would take agonizing minutes to get access to personal protection, it's the price I have to pay for allowing my State to become politically dominated by morons.

[PIRATE14]

Originally Posted by ldivinag

so this is wrong?

cop: did you know why i stopped you?

me: people complained about the blood from the dead hooker in my truck, leaking out????

That reminds me of one of my famous lines in dealing with LE......one guy asked me if I had any weapons on me or in my car.....I balled my hands into fists and said besides these.....he laughed....still got a speeding ticket and was on my way..... Just finished up a huge training session in the desert.......

Be cool..........

[robitrocks]

I can't belive no one's posted this yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8
Just remember, "If your woman is mad at you, leave her at home."

[532Fastback]

This was in my newspaper yesterday. I wonder if this guys gun was CA legal or not. It says SUSPICION so obviously the police didn't know if it was or not, maybe.
• 4:46 p.m. - A caller reported hearing semi-automatic gunfire in the Greenhorn Creek area.

• 10:37 p.m. - Deputies stopped two vehicles and arrested a person on suspicion of having an assault weapon.

http://www.theunion.com/article/2008...779/-1/BLOTTER

[Ironchef]

So wait a second...reading this thread brings up a question for me...

When I'm pulled over in my honda minivan, wife and kids inside, and upon handing my license and registration to the cop, and he quickly asks if i have any guns in the vehicle (and I do, legally stowed), how do I answer? Do I say "I don't want to answer that question" because he doesn't have PC to ask or pursue a search?

I know it's not something asked at a traffic stop, but if it is....what's safe protocol regardless of what firearm I'm carrying?

[Charliegone]

Originally Posted by robitrocks

I can't belive no one's posted this yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8
Just remember, "If your woman is mad at you, leave her at home."

"Get a white friend.." LOL

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by 532Fastback

This was in my newspaper yesterday. I wonder if this guys gun was CA legal or not. It says SUSPICION so obviously the police didn't know if it was or not, maybe.
• 4:46 p.m. - A caller reported hearing semi-automatic gunfire in the Greenhorn Creek area.

• 10:37 p.m. - Deputies stopped two vehicles and arrested a person on suspicion of having an assault weapon.

http://www.theunion.com/article/2008...779/-1/BLOTTER

This is the incident that spurred this thread. The person knows to contact the Right People.

[N6ATF]

Originally Posted by 532Fastback

This was in my newspaper yesterday. I wonder if this guys gun was CA legal or not. It says SUSPICION so obviously the police didn't know if it was or not, maybe.
• 4:46 p.m. - A caller reported hearing semi-automatic gunfire in the Greenhorn Creek area.

• 10:37 p.m. - Deputies stopped two vehicles and arrested a person on suspicion of having an assault weapon.

http://www.theunion.com/article/2008...779/-1/BLOTTER

How nice that it specifies semi-automatic gunfire. Not SAO revolver fire. Or muzzle loading gunfire. Nor fully automatic gunfire.