Ctr-02

[artherd]

This is basically a really nice FAB-10/Vulcan right now, but the furthur erosion to the AR 'series' languange is nice. The goal is to expand this weapon with a non-pistol grip one day, pending DOJ approval.

Please Note:
1) Bolted-in 10-round mag.
2) CA DOJ letter on file.
3) It shoots 1/3MOA which is as well as I can hold a rifle.





Oh yes 4) I friggin love it

[bu-bye]

Whats different about it? Looks very nice.

[artherd]

Originally Posted by bu-bye

Whats different about it? Looks very nice.

All billet 7075 upper and lower.
Takes a tool to detatch the magazine, but magwel is open.
With a 'thumb grip' (ie not a pistol grip) I may eventually be able to use my old 30-rounders and put the old detach-mag catch back in. Stay tuned.

Remember, thumb has to go over the stock just like they do for the Robinson M-96. And oh yeah... if you can pull it off just think... we get to show the DOJ that despite their newest ban, we can once again overcome it with sheer ingenuity!

And oh yeah... you'll put the FAB-10 outta business pretty much. Pin it in for pistol grip and then be able to rearrange for detachable mags, AWESOME!

[socalguns]

bolted pinned? Or bolted Nutted?

Thats a pricy, pricy, rifle

[bwiese]

God DAMN! Good going Ben/Artherd, good letter...

Hmmm, some interesting wording in that letter...

"... that particular make and model is not listed as an assault weapon in the list promulgated by the Department in response to the Harrot vs. County of Kings case.
.
{...snip...}
.
You should be aware, however, that the JP Rifles CTR-02 is virtually identical to rifles now listed as assault weapons by the Department and may be considered an assault weapon in the near future."

This is the first real operational acknowledgement from DOJ/AG office that you can legally acquire a non-Harrott-listed AR receiver. By extension this would apply to non-Harrott-listed AK receivers as well.

The importance of this goes quite beyond trying to make some kinda gripless AR.

"Near future"? This wording suggests possibly there's an upcoming administrative attempt to update the Harrott-inspired DOJ Roster of AR15 and AK Series Weapons. But these could also just be cautionary CYA weasel words too - or there could be some legislative stuff in committee we haven't heard of (but I doubt this latter case).

There is a dim-bright side to all of this, however:

....if AR/AK receivers that aren't declared as named/Type II AWs now (like the CTR02, a couple of other off-brand AR receivers, and some new US-made AK-style stamped receivers) get added to the list for 'functional identicality', these will become full-fledged CA AWs upon that declaration. While registration will be required after 90? days, once it's declared as an AW you can add evil features galore (detachable magwell w/pistol grip, flash hider, folder stock, etc. etc.)

I do not believe that any retroactive 'ban' would fall in place kinda like the early '90s SKS fiasco: that is, a situation where a receiver CTR02 is allowed now, but then added to DOJ Roster list - but then also not allowed to be registered as AW. I believe once a gun/receiver is added to the list and promulgated as an AW, that triggers a registration period to come into compliance (register it, surrender it, move it/sell it out of state, etc.)

I also do not know whether, in this 'update', they'd also try to clean up some other things like FAL & HK clone receivers (i.e., merging a receiver that could form a Type III gun back into Type I category). We've really just addressed Harrott issues here. Non-named, non-AR/AK receivers are still unbanned -which is why CaliFALs are allowed.

I think a 'substantially different' receiver - like the FAB10 - will not be banned or declared as an AW. The Vulcan receiver is in more questionable territory, but of course if Vulcan gets 'declared' as an AW, you can rip out the affixed mag

I will have to read more deeply on how items are declared AWs, and procedures for adding to Harrott list.

For those of us with a bit of pocket change to spare, having a willing FFL, and wanting another AW and willing to gamble that these might be declared as AWs, it might behoove us to quietly do as Ben/Artherd did, and acquire (with DOJ permission) a couple of the off-list AR and AK receivers out there. I'd be buying them not to make Californicated guns, but gambling they get declared AWs eventually and thus I get a coupla new AWs.

[But there's no guarantee of this, the status quo could well be maintained and I could very well end up with fairly useless chunks of metal (at least to me - I have no use for any 'Californiaized' AW.]

(But glad I kept a dozen AK hicap mags!)


Bill Wiese
San Jose

[bu-bye]

So this would be good new for my KT-10 build right. KT-10 is what KT Ordnance calls their 80% "AR-10" lower. As long as the mag is pinned and its not on the list its ok and If it does make the list I can unpin the mag.

[Stanze]

w00t!!!!!!!!!!!

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by bu-bye

So this would be good new for my KT-10 build right. KT-10 is what KT Ordnance calls their 80% "AR-10" lower. As long as the mag is pinned and its not on the list its ok and If it does make the list I can unpin the mag.

BuBye,

I would perhaps be a bit careful with homebuilt lowers, as opposed to acquiring an off-list limited production commercial lower like Artherd did. [If you got a letter from DOJ allowing this, though, go for it. Your letter to DOJ should be addressed to same people as artherd's and be phrased similarly.]

The problem here is that a key basic premise of Harrott v. Kings County holds that ARs/AKs had to be specifcally declared/named & promulgated (by being listed on DOJ Roster of AR15 and AK Series Weapons), by name, mfgr, model, etc. in order to be banned AWs. If not on this Roster, the the receivers are apparently OK providing no SB23 evil features attached.

Until I saw the DOJ response to Artherd's request, I'd always believed Harrott to not offer much protection. But this seems to be OK.

The problem w/homebrew receivers is that it might well be regarded by a court as impossible and impracticable for DOJ to specifically list details of every homebrew AR/AK receiver - esp as Harrott mandates it has to be listed on DOJ's Roster by name/mfgr/model, etc. Since your receiver would be something like "Jim Bob's Receiver #2", there thus could be a reasonable chance that Harrott protections would not carry over to homebrew receivers. This is a decision that would, it seem to me, be a matter of law and be made by a judge.

This would then make these homebrew receivers fully subject to prior Kasler decision, which put all ARs and AKs back into Type I category regardless of attached evil features - and under Kasler, if it looks/works like an AR, it is an AR.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

[82a1]

Great job Ben!! That is one sweeeeet looking rifle - esp with the ACOG setup. I'm gonna try damn hard to get one of those. Major props.

[C.G.]

+1 on the kudos. Done right with a letter; excellent job, Artherd!
Where's the bow emoticon when you need it!

[bu-bye]

Gotcha. Thanks Bill

Artherd, Where might I find your letter?

[Charliegone]

Holy crap! Great stuff!

[gobabygo]

Ok, you got my attention. Me like that rifle lots.

So it appears that we should be able to purchase a JP CTR-02 rifle either without the pistol grip or with a pinned mag. Probably without the pistol grip would be better/easier so we're following along the same terms as a Robinson M96. Then we could treat it like a CaliFAL.

I'm going to need to save my pennies and talk to my FFL.

[6172crew]

Best news all day! Does anyone have a list of non-named lowers? Or that funky list of the added AW's?

[bwiese]

These concepts prob apply to some US mfgd AK receivers as well since they are not on the Harrott mandated Roster. There are some that are not on the List and are pretty cheap. Buy a couple (after permission & getting FFL cooperation) for insurance. If they get declared as AWs, build 'em up. If not, you've only lost $150.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

[Richard]

Originally Posted by 6172crew

Best news all day! Does anyone have a list of non-named lowers? Or that funky list of the added AW's?

here's one you won't find on that list....and you might be able to pick up an original
Essential Arms or as you may remember " EA-J15"
http://essentialarms.com/index.html

[Stanze]

Originally Posted by Richard

here's one you won't find on that list....and you might be able to pick up an original
Essential Arms or as you may remember " EA-J15"
http://essentialarms.com/index.html

+ http://www.fulton-armory.com/

[artherd]

Originally Posted by bu-bye

So this would be good new for my KT-10 build right. KT-10 is what KT Ordnance calls their 80% "AR-10" lower. As long as the mag is pinned and its not on the list its ok and If it does make the list I can unpin the mag.

It's encouraging, but you'll absolutely need to get a seperate DOJ letter regarding exactly the KT-10 build. Homebuilts are tricky, it is not clear to me how the DOJ treats them as far as 'make and model' goes.

I would *think* that in order to remain consistant in law, that the Make and Model of the KT-10 would be "Bu-bye" and "My Rifle2005" respectively, and that to BAN them under CURRENT statutes, the DOJ would have to place an injunction, hold and win a Supior Court hearing, and then promologate the make/model in a list. Yes for each and every homebuilder. But this is reaching way way way far, a court may not agree, and the DOJ themselves should be consulted.

[artherd]

Hi Bill, thanks for the kind words, coming from you I take as quite a compliment. Forgive me for not spilling the beans untill it was all said and done, but I wanted to make sure I was not blowing smoke up anyone's skirt.

Originally Posted by bwiese

God DAMN! Good going Ben/Artherd, good letter...
This is the first real operational acknowledgement from DOJ/AG office that you legally acquire a non-Harrott-listed AR receiver. By extension this would apply to non-Harrott-listed AK receivers as well.
The importance of this goes quite beyond trying to make some kinda gripless AR.

You bet it does!

"Near future"? This wording suggests possibly there's an upcoming administrative attempt to update the Harrott-inspired DOJ Roster of AR15 and AK Series Weapons. But these could also just be cautionary CYA weasel words too - or there could be some legislative stuff in committee we haven't heard of (but I doubt this latter case).

I've got a FEELING this was fluf and bluf language. Ie put in to make the FFLs nervous. I went through SEVEN FFLs before I found one willing to take both the time to review the legal aspect, and to finally do the transfer.

Here's why I think they were bluffing: One of the FFLs was all set, then they called the DOJ just to verify. The agent who answered the phone interrupted my FFL, saying "I KNOW OF THE LETTER! Thing is, once we see it DROS'd, we're going to ban it immediately*, and then come right after you for posession of an AW in inventory withought an AW permit!"

*= Note that this is not possible for two reasons
1) CPC 12276.5 spells out exactly how the DOJ may 'ban' a series AW. They may issue only a temporary suspension of the sale/transfer, and then within 30 days must hold a Supior Court hearing in a populace county where the TRIAL COURT determines AW status. During that 30 day period the FFL would be able to send the weapon back out of state even if they lacked a CA AW permit.

2) Make/Model information is not included in DROS for longguns at all, so they will never know what's happening (unless they flagged my name and looked at my next purchase. Just to fsck with them I bought a shotgun

There is a dim-bright side to all of this, however:

....if AR/AK receivers that aren't declared as named/Type II AWs now (like the CTR02, a couple of other off-brand AR receivers, and some new US-made AK-style stamped receivers) get added to the list for 'functional identicality', these will become full-fledged CA AWs upon that declaration. While registration will be required after 90? days, once it's declared as an AW you can add evil features galore (detachable magwell w/pistol grip, flash hider, folder stock, etc. etc.)

I do not believe that any retroactive 'ban' would fall in place kinda like the early '90s SKS fiasco: that is, a situation where a receiver CTR02 is allowed now, but then added to DOJ Roster list - but then also not allowed to be registered as AW. I believe once a gun/receiver is added to the list and promulgated as an AW, that triggers a registration period to come into compliance (register it, surrender it, move it/sell it out of state, etc.)

Bill, I *THINK* historically speaking you'd be correct here in that we would open up another 90day reg period. I also *think* this *may be* WHY the DOJ has not yet updated their list at all since the last registration interval. Do you have anything we can sink our teeth into that would require a new 90day registration period for new AWs (and maybe for ALL AWs?)[/quote]

I think a 'substantially different' receiver - like the FAB10 - will not be banned or declared as an AW.

Another recent event, the G&B Sales "Bushmaster XM-15" (a NAMED! reciver) with welded mag-wel being declared a legal longgun seems to support the idea that the FAB-10 will fall outside whatever else happens here.

The Vulcan receiver is in more questionable territory, but of course if Vulcan gets 'declared' as an AW, you can rip out the affixed mag

I will have to read more deeply on how items are declared AWs, and procedures for adding to Harrott list.

Check CPC 12276.5 for starts. Unfortunately a grace period and new registration is not mentioned.

[bwiese]

Artherd/Ben...

Change your sigline, Tim Riegert's not at DOJ anymore. Apparently it's Alison Merilees now, perhaps just ad interim.

Originally Posted by artherd

It's encouraging, but you'll absolutely need to get a seperate DOJ letter regarding exactly the KT-10 build. Homebuilts are tricky, it is not clear to me how the DOJ treats them as far as 'make and model' goes. It is also not clear to me how

I would *think* that in order to remain consistant in law, that the Make and Model of the KT-10 would be "Bu-bye" and "My Rifle2005" respectively, and that to BAN them under CURRENT statutes, the DOJ would have to place an injunction, hold and win a Supior Court hearing, and then promologate the make/model in a list. Yes for each and every homebuilder. But this is reaching way way way far, the DOJ themselves should be consulted.

As you seem to realize - and like I told buBye before - homebuilt ARs and AKs can be tricky.

I really, really think if you were popped for AW possesion of a homebuilt AR that there's a fair chance Harrott v Kings County does not offer you protection even though your gun is 'off-list'.

A judge could rule as a matter of law that there's no way the DOJ Roster mandated by Harrott could conceivably be practical for homebuilts, and no way it could be created to ban homebuilts due to banning criteria is make and model, and that this was an attempt to bypass legislative intent - that is, ban ARs & AKs. The fact that Harrott allows some oddball mfgrd AR receivers to exist is a side effect and not central to the fact that the List could _never_ be set up for homebuilts by name/model/etc.

And if Harrott doesn't hold for an AR/AK, then Kasler takes over: it'd be an AR since it "walks like a duck and talks like a duck" and, since unregistered, you'd be guilty of illegal AW possession.



Bill Wiese
San Jose

[blacklisted]

This is great news!

Does mean that one could theoretically get any (stripped) lower receiver not on the list (if there is a brave enough FFL in his or her area) and pin a mag in it (or have a mag pinned in it)? I do forsee DoJ trying to cover their asses here and adding pretty much every receiver to the list. In some ways that is a good thing though.

[artherd]

Originally Posted by Technical Ted

Ben,
I'll be damned. Congratulations.
Looks like I'm eating crow for lunch.

No hard feelings, come shoot it sometime(maybe not that interesting with 10round mag though , beer afterwords on me!

A footnote, this was my SECOND Certified Letter to the DOJ regarding this issue! The first time all I got in responce was a photocopy of CPC 12276, which may have been tactic admission I was correct, but not nearly enough to act on.

This time I recived a solid reply with a re-worded letter. This whole thing has been nearly 2 years in the making (albit off and on.)

Attached is my origional letter for reference. Feel free to adapt the format though I am no great author.
Page 1 of 2

Page 2 of 2

[artherd]

Originally Posted by gobabygo

So it appears that we should be able to purchase a JP CTR-02 rifle either without the pistol grip or with a pinned mag.

This was overkill on my part, but to ease the nerves of my FFL I acutally did both, removed the PG *AND* affixed a 10 round magazine in place all before it was sent into CA.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by artherd

Here's why I think they were bluffing: One of the FFLs was all set, then they called the DOJ just to verify. The agent who answered the phone interrupted my FFL, saying "I KNOW OF THE LETTER! Thing is, once we see it DROS'd, we're going to ban it immediately*, and then come right after you for posession of an AW in inventory withought an AW permit!

That could well be agent/phone operator/idiot 'Dana' who told 6172crew here that SW5 receivers (HK94 clones) were banned "by class". Or one of the idiots that arrested folks at the Pomona gun show awhile back for illegal AW possession for having HK trigger group pistol grip lowers.

He may possibly have been mistakenly thinking the intent was to acquire a receiver legitmately then convert it to an AW, and that the dealer would have an AW on his shelf at moment of bust. But I think you were clear that this would never be in Type III AW form.

And "Banning" it will take procedural/admin/signoff work and is way beyond the skill or pay grade/authority level of that agent.

Bill, I *THINK* historically speaking you'd be correct here in that we would open up another 90day reg period. I also *think* this *may be* WHY the DOJ has not yet updated their list at all since the last registration interval. Do you have anything we can sink our teeth into that would require a new 90day registration period for new AWs (and maybe for ALL AWs?)

I'll look. Some of this is law, some of this is delegated to DOJ for sheer mechanics of administering registration program. Remember, one of the goals of AW law appears to be to avoid seizures and compensation so property-rights court challenges wouldn't use up staff/court time.

The DOJ may not have updated this list out of sheer bureucratic inertia. And probably not a lot of Gun List readers there.

Another recent event, the G&B Sales "Bushmaster XM-15" (a NAMED! reciver) with welded mag-wel being declared a legal longgun seems to support the idea that the FAB-10 will fall outside whatever else happens here.

Yeah, that 'time + tools' thing appears to override the name.

Check CPC 12276.5 for starts. Unfortunately a grace period and new registration is not mentioned.

Yes. That may be allowed to be set by agency to something reasonable for admin purposes. If they made it 10 years or 1 day, those'd both be unreasonable to differing parties and challenged on that basis.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

[artherd]

As far as other lower options; The high quality 'mil spec' Lewis Machine and Tool springs to mind. I hesitate a little to print an easy to digest 'list' of non-named AR/AK lowers, but I CAN list the ones that ARE banned, and by definition the ones you find should be legal (subject to DOJ approval, I would get a letter of your own and not rely totally on mine.)

Category 1 & 2 both in an easy-to-digest list: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/aw.htm

This includes the usual CPC 12276(a)-(c) AND the elusive yet law; CPC 12276(e)
If it's not on there, it's worthy of a DOJ letter at the least.

[artherd]

Originally Posted by bwiese

Artherd/Ben...
Change your sigline, Tim Riegert's not at DOJ anymore. Apparently it's Alison Merilees now, perhaps just ad interim.

Done, thanks. I've noticed Alison seems to be Tim's permant replacement. (also if you know how to make my font smaller on both windows/mac computers, I'd like to shrink it a little in the interest of space

Yes, I really have no idea how a trial court might apply Harrott to homebuilts. I woudn't touch one with a 10-round pole with-ought a STRONG letter from an Attorney like Allison within the DOJ.

[C.G.]

Originally Posted by artherd

This time I recived a solid reply with a re-worded letter. This whole thing has been nearly 2 years in the making (albit off and on.)

I don't feel so bad now, I've only been at it 7 months now. Maybe in another year I will have my toy.

[artherd]

Originally Posted by bwiese

That could well be agent/phone operator/idiot 'Dana' who told 6172crew here that SW5 receivers (HK94 clones) were banned "by class". Or one of the idiots that arrested folks at the Pomona gun show awhile back for illegal AW possession for having HK trigger group pistol grip lowers.

Funny side note; The phone clerk was familiar with my letter off the top of his head over 2 weeks after I recived it, and thought the author of the letter (myself) was a Doctor. (heh. Formatting is awesome.)

And "Banning" it will take procedural/admin/signoff work and is way beyond the skill or pay grade/authority level of that agent.

Not to mention a trial court purusuant to CPC 12276.5: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.htm

I'll look. Some of this is law, some of this is delegated to DOJ for sheer mechanics of administering registration program. Remember, one of the goals of AW law appears to be to avoid seizures and compensation so property-rights court challenges wouldn't use up staff/court time.

Yep, I'm in about the same place, based on regulatory history it should happen the way we think (another 90day period in which to register... possibly any new AW of any type.)

The DOJ may not have updated this list out of sheer bureucratic inertia. And probably not a lot of Gun List readers there.

Also a distinct possibility!

I have not read the recent posts you and bwiese have written, but give them hell guys!

[blacklisted]

Does JP offer stripped receivers? I see they have a $600 complete lower, which isn't that bad but is a bit more than I have right now.

[C.G.]

Originally Posted by blacklisted

Does JP offer stripped receivers? I see they have a $600 complete lower, which isn't that bad but is a bit more than I have right now.

Guys, don't get ahead of yourselves; remember that Artherd had the rifle shipped with the set screw and magazine already attached.

[blacklisted]

Originally Posted by C.G.

Guys, don't get ahead of yourselves; remember that Artherd had the rifle shipped with the set screw and magazine already attached.

Of course

[artherd]

Originally Posted by blacklisted

Does JP offer stripped receivers? I see they have a $600 complete lower, which isn't that bad but is a bit more than I have right now.

Not to be a TOTAL asshat, but this is still a potential legal edge condition (albit one I as a layman am confident in.) that could potentially lead to a court battle. If $600 is a stretch, how about $30,000+ to fight Felony charges?

The Vulcan is actually very close, and much cheaper, not to mention MUCH more 'tested'. While trouble from this is not in my OPINION a likely outcome, I'd hate to see you get in serious trouble over a metal tube.

[C.G.]

Originally Posted by artherd

Not to be a TOTAL asshat, but this is still a potential legal edge condition (albit one I as a layman am confident in.) that could potentially lead to a court battle. If $600 is a stretch, how about $30,000+ to fight Felony charges?

The Vulcan is actually very close, and much cheaper, not to mention MUCH more 'tested'. While trouble from this is not in my OPINION a likely outcome, I'd hate to see you get in serious trouble over a metal tube.

Actually, I think that is a very good observation and advice. Good on you for the fair warning!

Two things:

1) someone should put together a list of non-named AR/AK style recievers so we can order 'em now while the gettin's good! I'd LOVE to see a list of AK recievers... that would be awesome because I've got WAY more AK mags than I do AR-15 mags and thanks to SB-23 I'm not getting any more of either !

2) Although the letter seems ominous, I somehow HIGHLY doubt they'll risk the possibility of opening up registration for a whole flood of new weapons because it essentially sets a precent (i.e. all you have to do to get a "assualt weapon" in PRK is outsmart them with the name game and open a 90 day window). Also, just think of what a fiasco it would be when the NRA and other groups got wind. Plus, it adds more costs to a state government that's essentially already on the fast track to bankruptcy.

Soooooo..... let's see the lists !

[artherd]

FWIW, the $600 price is for the JP "JP-15". My letter is specific to the JP "CTR-02". JP does not list a price for the CTR-02 bare lower, but the complete gun is $2400 and the uppers go for $1400. So figure at least a grand. Really a small (well not small but still a deal IMO) price to pay for one of the best ARs on the planet. Seriously this thing is a laserbeam. Better than many bolt guns. Better than me (I can't hold it well enough to tell how good it really is.)

Think of it as a $2400 custom precision rifle that works the bolt for you.

It's more accurate than I am, and the brake is so effective I can see my bullet strikes in the ACOG scope at 100yds.

http://www.jprifles.com/

Originally Posted by blacklisted

Does JP offer stripped receivers? I see they have a $600 complete lower, which isn't that bad but is a bit more than I have right now.

[blacklisted]

Did you have JP pin/bolt the mag in? I wonder if the other companies would be willing to do that before it shipped into this lovely state.

I am trying to decide whether or not to ask about one receiver in the letter, or give them a list of two or three possible ones (maybe to help others).

[artherd]

I ended up buying this CTR-02 from a private seller, so I had him install the retaining nut and mag. Might as well ask about several lowers in one letter, but PLEASE do not go all inclusive. We don't want to make it too easy after all

Originally Posted by blacklisted

Did you have JP pin/bolt the mag in? I wonder if the other companies would be willing to do that before it shipped into this lovely state.

I am trying to decide whether or not to ask about one receiver in the letter, or give them a list of two or three possible ones (maybe to help others).

[Richard]

Originally Posted by blacklisted

I'm currently making a list of receivers to mention in my DoJ letter.

These are the only two so far.
JP-15
Stag Arms Lower

Anyone have any to add?
Here's the ban list: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/kaslist.pdf

please include the EA-J15

http://essentialarms.com/index.html

thanks