WARNING: "MagMagnet" magnetic cap for Bullet Button sold at gunshows: DO NOT USE/BUY!

[lomalinda]

Good job articulating why this device is a steaming piece of ****, Bill et al.

[technique]

Originally Posted by lomalinda

Bill et al.

What is that? Is that like belittle? Be- lit- al? Bill et al? LOL

[goober]

Mag Magnet-
Kudos for having the stones to come here and discuss this issue. That's a step in the right direction. Now, hopefully you will do the right thing: take the concerns being voiced by bwiese and others to heart, and either stop selling your product, or if you insist on continuing to sell it, do so only with full disclosure as to the very limited ways in which it can be legally used. Sounds like you need to fire or educate and better supervise your show staff as well.

[Mag Magnet]

Originally Posted by 383green

It would make a better cat toy if it had a laser built in.

Suggestion taken, keep an eye out forthe new improved laser version. ; )

[dirtnap]

I like the product, it's something I would use on my oll when at home or out of state. It's not up to the seller to make sure every person in CA is an expert on the topic. Include a waiver, and it's a done deal IMO.

[kf6tac]

Originally Posted by bwiese

If you really disclose the limitations on this product very few will buy it:
1. it's not legally usable on a CA OLL w/BB maglock & 12276.1PC features
2. someone travelling out of state can uninstall BB & add regular
mag catch (and reverse it before returning to CA);
3. it is maybe useful to those converting btwn rimfire vs centerfire uppers on same lower;
4. it is usable to some with registered Category 3 AWs having BBs installed, so the BB can take gun out of AW status for more relaxed transport requirements.

I think 2 & 3 are really the market that Mag Magnet should be angling for. Market to both groups by pointing out that it's quicker to slap on a little magnetic add-on than it is to uninstall the BB and add a regular mag catch. For all other people, make it abundantly clear on something that is provided EXTERNAL to the sealed package (i.e. something that buyers can read BEFORE buying) that they can't legally use it on their BB-equipped OLLs in-state.

[Mag Magnet]

We are trying to fix the concerns stated above. I do NOT want people to think they is a way around CA's BS. It would be helpful if anyone can offer positive suggestions to help negate issues we may have.
I do think there is a place for our product, but there is limitations on it's usage, just like a whole lot of CA type products.
What do you want? A handout to read before purchase?

I seem to recall a long time ago when an AR-type receiver was considered by many to be illegal. The CA AW law is poorly written, and even now a lot of guys do stuff (guns & stuff to guns) that is considered ok by some, not ok by others. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you are uncomfortable with an OLL rifle, buy a Ruger or Kel-Tec. We are not trying to scam anybody or mislead "noobs" into buying something that they will use incorrectly.
OLL rules and regs can be very convoluted to the uneducated. We also sold a few bullet buttons to guys to switch their "unregistered assault weapons" into a CA compliant config.

[Seesm]

Originally Posted by dirtnap

I like the product, it's something I would use on my oll when at home or out of state. It's not up to the seller to make sure every person in CA is an expert on the topic. Include a waiver, and it's a done deal IMO.

IF At home is in CA your a felon my man... Careful what you say on here. PM me after you delete yours and I will delete this.

[Vectrexer]

Originally Posted by dirtnap

I like the product, it's something I would use on my oll when at home or out of state. It's not up to the seller to make sure every person in CA is an expert on the topic. Include a waiver, and it's a done deal IMO.

I would disagree for product that has this narrow of a usage.

Mag Magnet know exactly what this product is and why you would want to use it. Especially why a buyer would want to use it in California.

A waiver sealed inside a package is not good enough this time around. A prominent sign on the table with a reminder to review it before leaving would be a prudent thing for Mag Magnet to do. I'd be happy to drop by Bill's reply inside a an 8x10 plastic holder for their table tomorrow if Mag Magnet desires.

I wouldn't touch it inside of Kali and would have no use for it outside of California. Except maybe as a fridge magnet. But then I have plenty of old hard drives from which to make fridge magnets.

To Mag Magnet,, thanks for showing up here to discuss your product. Big balls to sell the product and even bigger ones to back it up. Well done for having the guts!

[Mag Magnet]

Originally Posted by technique

and the plot thickens

Thicker than my mother-in-law's beer belly.

[Mag Magnet]

I will have a sign and handouts made by the next time you see us at a gun show. Please do not destroy my cow palace sales guy on Sunday. I will speak to him in the morning, but he will still be at the show.
Let it ride, and give us a chance to work on it. Thank you.

[Vectrexer]

Originally Posted by Mag Magnet

I will have a sign and handouts made by the next time you see us at a gun show. Please do not destroy my cow palace sales guy on Sunday. I will speak to him in the morning, but he will still be at the show.
Let it ride, and give us a chance to work on it. Thank you.

100% awesome. Thanks! (but I still wouldn't recommend your product to anyone.)

[Mag Magnet]

Originally Posted by technique

and the plot thickens

Originally Posted by Vectrexer

100% awesome. Thanks! (but I still wouldn't recommend your product to anyone.)

That's OK, I don't recommend your product to anyone either.

[Trey1191]

Now here's my problem with the product/sales pitch
I was told by the man running the booth that it was totally legal to have ON your firearm. Not just to use as a tool and immediately remove, and even though I'm new to the whole AR seen, but it doesn't exactly sound legal for what it was being pitched to me for. If you support your product so much you'd think you wouldn't have the monster man grips with a "sorta" locked 10 round mags.

now for the positive reinforcement
If you made a separate (but in package) 2-3 inch metal or even a plastic rod that would attach to the back of it and played off that the magnet is to help align the tool easier It would seem less like the mag catch extension that it is as well as look more like a tool. That way you don't have to redesign your tool and it can still fill the function for your .22 upper or out of state by simply removing the rod.

[artherd]

Originally Posted by Mag Magnet

What do you want? A handout to read before purchase?

I would think that would be a minimum necessity.

[dantodd]

It's like passing out holey condemns in the tenderloin with a note inside saying they don't prevent pregnancy or transmission of STDs.

Perfectly accurate. Nearly useless. Misleading as hell.

[nicki]

Potentially a trap for anyone who has an AR in a featureless mode.

The bullet button was a clever way to work in compliance with AB23 so that we could have AR pattern rifles while complying with a bad law by removing the ability to "detach" the magazine without the use of a tool.

The "bullet button" is pushing the edge as it is.

I just hope some gun owner doesn't get into legal trouble by buying one of these devices and using it on a bullet button AR.

But then again, it is difficult to stop stupid.

Nicki

[unusedusername]

Something to consider Mag Magnet....

The DOJ has recently decided that the original prince50 maglock is illegal. I am not aware of them prosecuting anyone for it yet, however it will come. The reason that they decided that it is illegal is because some people could pull back the screw and allow it to be used as a regular mag release button.

This is similar to how someone could put your product on a featured BBed AR and turn it into an AW.

If you are selling this make sure to get very good legal representation before you start ramping up sales.

Please ignore this post. I'm corrected below by bwise, who knows way more then I do...

[dirtnap]

Originally Posted by Seesm

IF At home is in CA your a felon my man... Careful what you say on here. PM me after you delete yours and I will delete this.

Meh, I'm not worried. No need to delete anything....since I Dont actually own one of those tools. If I did I would keep it on at home. I'm not a criminal, I don't engage in illegal activities, and I'm not afraid of the big bad gooberment.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by dirtnap

Meh, I'm not worried. No need to delete anything....since I Dont actually own one of those tools. If I did I would keep it on at home. I'm not a criminal, I don't engage in illegal activities, and I'm not afraid of the big bad gooberment.

ok that you don't own one and don't engage in illegal activites, but if you did own own and did keep it attached to the BB at home, it Would be an illegal activity.

[KaTooM]

I have to agree that it is shady to sell a device to override a magazine locked(BB) equipped AR-15. There is alot of FUD and uncertainty out there already, lets not provide the DOJ with ammo to say the BB is ineffective because of this or that device.

Maybe you should call it the "Cop Magnet?"

Another informitive thread by B Wise.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by unusedusername

Something to consider Mag Magnet....

The DOJ has recently decided that the original prince50 maglock is illegal.

Whoa not quite.

No they haven't. The DOJ has said zero on this issue lately (initially they were trying to say all OLLs were AWs etc. but that's long over).

The issue is that *some DAs* think the P50 is too easy to loosen and there is elevated suspicion that a P50 gun may well be illegal and such a configuration may be treated more aggressively in those jurisdictions.

But CGF can indeed defend a screwed-down P50 - but it's easier to just say "go to a BulletButton", where the latching behavior is clear and nothing accidentally comes loose.
Why waste time/effort?

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by Mag Magnet

Ultimately, firearms can be deadly weapons and it is the responsibility of the user to operate their gun in a safe and legal manner.

WTF?

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by Mag Magnet

We are trying to fix the concerns stated above. I do NOT want people
to think they is a way around CA's BS. It would be helpful if anyone can offer positive suggestions to help negate issues we may have.

Then you need to IMMEDIATELY include statements like this:

"This device is only legal for use in CA on

1. rimfire off-list ARs;
2. registered assault weapons;
3. configurations not requiring nondetachable magazines

This device should NEVER be used (even for a fraction of a second) to remove any nondetachable
magazine affixed to an AR by a "Bullet Button"-type device.

This device is NOT an allowed "tool" encompassed in the CA regulatory definition of "detachable
magazine" per 11 CCR 5469(a)."

I do think there is a place for our product, but there is limitations on it's usage, just like a whole lot of CA type products.

What do you want? A handout to read before purchase?

That's a start along with a full recouching of sales/pitch to indicate its ultra-specific, narrow range of usefulness.

I think it's safe to say that if your product were marketed honestly and with the clear restrictions outlined pre-sale above, I don't think you will get enough sales to pay for booth fees at gunshows.

This is NOT a wide-application product like the BulletButton. It does NOT make the BulletButton "better" for 95% (likely more) of the BulletButton's users.

The use of a featureless AR in the demo/sales pitch is, IHMO, well-nigh fraudulent.

Your sales guy at the Cow Palace needs to be canned or caned. From what I've heard of other booths at other shows there likely are similar situations at shows eleswhere.

PEOPLE WILL GO TO JAIL IF THEY LISTEN TO THIS IDIOT AT THE COW PALACE, OR TRY TO INFER ANYTHING FROM HIS STATEMENTS.

I seem to recall a long time ago when an AR-type receiver was
considered by many to be illegal.

What "by many" means is irrelevant. This is not a "voting" or "belief" situation. What I and others above write about your product is "From The Horse's Mouth".

We understood the law, the court decisions and regulations. We walked a very narrow line and in fact avoided certain situations initially even though they were likely legal until we got REAL GUN LAWYERS' information.

guys do stuff (guns & stuff to guns) that is considered ok by some, not ok by others

Fine, that's on them. At least information exists so they can not screw up if they don't want to. And products are usu sold to them with caveats.

Your product as sold, demonstrated, couched, implied, etc. yesterday and likely elsewhere was certainly NOT properly described.

The honest nonconfusing approach is with my blurb above, and: "...this product is a special application product useful for specific limited circumstances".

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

We're trying to make sure of that.

If you are uncomfortable with an OLL rifle, buy a Ruger or Kel-Tec.

Properly-configured OLL rifles are of unquestioned legality. Your product, used in the way your representatives are selling it, is illegal for 95+% of the trade in OLLs.

I also think you've been called out here and are merely responding with "damage mitigation" - and if this thread did not exist your practices would not change.

We are not trying to scam anybody or mislead "noobs" into buying something that they will use incorrectly.

Your sales pitch and booth staffer I and many others saw indeed was. Reports of your booth's activities at other shows has already reached us.

OLL rules and regs can be very convoluted to the uneducated. We also sold a few bullet buttons to guys to switch their "unregistered assault weapons" into a CA compliant config.

Unreg'd AWs, if listed/banned by name, are not turned into non-AWs thru changes to configured features suites.

One of the few legit uses for your product is on *registered AWs* -- using the BB to allow unrestricted transportation of a reg'd AW as a non-AW, and using your device to overcome the BB to allow manually detachable magazines.

But as a vendor you are held to a higher standard, esp when possibly criminal outcomes are likely when used with the most common legal application of the BB.

Now we have to go clean up the misinformation that has moved from you guys thru your vendors.

[bodger]

This is an unnecessary piece of crap, and is bound to cause problems.

Guaranteed some noob is going to buy one from a salesman at a gun show who doesn't know s**t either and there will be a felony AW arrest.

We've got the BB, it pisses me off, but I can live with it.

Junk like this gets the DOJ's attention and the next thing you know we'll be riveting our mags in and toploading to avoid being a felon.

Cop magnet indeed.

You go out of state, you put your standard mag release back in and assemble your 30 round mags and rock and roll. It's part of the fun of going to a free state for shooting. Shucking the CA crap off your damn fine rifle.

This is BS, and irresponsible to allow them to be sold the way they were yesterday. And on a demonstrator that didn't qualify as an AW with this thing installed.
Gimme a break. Friggin' felony trap for the uninformed.

[RobG]

Originally Posted by Mag Magnet

We also sold a few bullet buttons to guys to switch their "unregistered assault weapons" into a CA compliant config.

FYI, putting a bullet button on a "listed" reciever does not make it legal, if that is what occurred.

[mej16489]

Originally Posted by kf6tac

I think 2 & 3 are really the market that Mag Magnet should be angling for. Market to both groups by pointing out that it's quicker to slap on a little magnetic add-on than it is to uninstall the BB and add a regular mag catch. For all other people, make it abundantly clear on something that is provided EXTERNAL to the sealed package (i.e. something that buyers can read BEFORE buying) that they can't legally use it on their BB-equipped OLLs in-state.

I really like the concept of Option 3 as well (turn a Cat3 RAW into a non-RAW for transport) - it actually makes me wish my RAWs weren't named

[B Strong]

Good catch Bill, I hope our people keep this in mind, and the manufacturer/seller takes the hint and ceases and desists.

[goober]

THIS:

Originally Posted by bwiese

Whoa not quite.

No they haven't. The DOJ has said zero on this issue lately (initially they were trying to say all OLLs were AWs etc. but that's long over).

The issue is that *some DAs* think the P50 is too easy to loosen and there is elevated suspicion that a P50 gun may well be illegal and such a configuration may be treated more aggressively in those jurisdictions.

But CGF can indeed defend a screwed-down P50 - but it's easier to just say "go to a BulletButton", where the latching behavior is clear and nothing accidentally comes loose.
Why waste time/effort?

NOT THIS:

Originally Posted by unusedusername

Something to consider Mag Magnet....

The DOJ has recently decided that the original prince50 maglock is illegal. I am not aware of them prosecuting anyone for it yet, however it will come. The reason that they decided that it is illegal is because some people could pull back the screw and allow it to be used as a regular mag release button.

thanks for the clarification bwiese, the post by unusedusername was a bit off the mark....

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by mej16489

I really like the concept of Option 3 as well (turn a Cat3 RAW into a non-RAW for transport) - it actually makes me wish my RAWs weren't named

2/3 of ARs and AKs made the Kasler list in Fall 2000. Rarer ones and new (at the time) ones didn't make it, and were "freed" from "series" constraints when Harrott hit in June 2001. There likely are a whole slough of AKs as reg'd AWs that are Category 3 - perhaps moreso than the ARs.

I'm one of the fortunate few having a couple of Category 3 ARs ("American Spirit Arms ASA-15"). Turns out when they formulated the"Kasler" list, DOJ staff didn't sit long enough on the can reading Shotgun News.

[bigcalidave]

Damn. So I can't put a bullet button on a named RAW? That was the most exciting thing I'd heard in a long time!

[Cokebottle]

Originally Posted by bigcalidave

Damn. So I can't put a bullet button on a named RAW? That was the most exciting thing I'd heard in a long time!

It's a catch-22 where the way the law is written is counter-productive to it's intent.

As I understand it (and I may be wrong):
AW has a detachable mag. Detachable mags or "featureless builds" are GTG with high-capacity pre-ban mags.
Fixed mags are limited to 10rds, even if the build is otherwise "featureless".

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by bigcalidave

Damn. So I can't put a bullet button on a named RAW? That was the most exciting thing I'd heard in a long time!

No. 'Named' reg'd AWs do not lose their AW status by characteristic feature status.

There is a chance - DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME, KIDDIES! - that a banned by name reg'd AW loses AW status if it's not semiautomatic (i.e, gas system removed, etc.)

A Category 3 reg'd AW, however, can have sufficient characteristic features removed, or other attributes changed [fixed mag, nonsemiauto, etc.] to pull it out of AW status for purposes of transport, shipment, etc. - though its registration just allows it to be reassembled into AW status again. [This is straight from former DOJ FD head Randy Rossi and former DOJ Asst Dir/Dept AG Tim Rieger, with a slough of witnesses including Don Kilmer and Jess Guy.]

One of the other "wonders of CA AW world" is that a good ol' regular non-AW semiauto rifle, with a legal hicap magazine inserted, becomes an AW if the hicap mag is fixed/screwed down (BB/maglock, etc.)

[ricochet]

Be aware that giving you "a chance to work it out" is turning the majority of your customers (98% or more) into felons.

If you're as responsible as you want us to believe you are, you would, without hesitation or need of suggestion, shutdown reckless sales of this product immediately and "work it out" without turning a bunch of law abiding and otherwise responsible people into felons without their knowledge. Fine print is not responsible, forthright and straightforward presentation of factual information is.

Demonstrating your product in California on a rifle with features (like an AR with a pistol grip) would also be a way of making as believe that you "honestly" believe your product is legal to use (talk is cheap). If you can't do that because it is in conflict with you "warning" then how do California residents with bullet button mags and rifles with features use the product for the several second period that's required to change out a magazine ?

There's your chance ...

Originally Posted by Mag Magnet

I will have a sign and handouts made by the next time you see us at a gun show. Please do not destroy my cow palace sales guy on Sunday. I will speak to him in the morning, but he will still be at the show.
Let it ride, and give us a chance to work on it. Thank you.

[Nxd9ar15xcrL]

So... Was there a change at today's show?

[Nodda Duma]

So.. when a customer uses this device and gets arrested and charged with felony possession of an assault weapon, what happens to the guys who sold the ignorant customer the device? It doesn't sound like he gives a crap what happens to his customers, would be nice if he had to suffer the consequences of negligently setting them up to face future felony charges...not that I have any faith in the ability of the justice system to do so.

I'm hoping to God that the AWB is struck down before anyone is arrested for using this magnetic AW maker.

-Jason

[bodger]

Originally Posted by ricochet

Be aware that giving you "a chance to work it out" is turning the majority of your customers (98% or more) into felons.

If you're as responsible as you want us to believe you are, you would, without hesitation or need of suggestion, shutdown reckless sales of this product immediately and "work it out" without turning a bunch of law abiding and otherwise responsible people into felons without their knowledge. Fine print is not responsible, forthright and straightforward presentation of factual information is.

Demonstrating your product in California on a rifle with features (like an AR with a pistol grip) would also be a way of making as believe that you "honestly" believe your product is legal to use (talk is cheap). If you can't do that because it is in conflict with you "warning" then how do California residents with bullet button mags and rifles with features use the product for the several second period that's required to change out a magazine ?

There's your chance ...

Exactly! What good is ANY product like this if it cannot legally remain attatched to the rifle's mag release? You might as well install the standard release, equally illegal it would seem.

I use a .223 round with no primer and no powder in it on a retractable key chain that I clip to my jacket or shirt.

This is a B.S. product, represented as a legal alternative to using a tool to activate the bullet button.

[Cokebottle]

Originally Posted by Nodda Duma

So.. when a customer uses this device and gets arrested and charged with felony possession of an assault weapon, what happens to the guys who sold the ignorant customer the device?

Civil case, possibly, but it's not a crime to sell a magnet that potentially has an illegal use any more than it is a crime to sell a gun that potentially has an illegal use (though the Bradys want to change that).

[bodger]

Originally Posted by Cokebottle

Civil case, possibly, but it's not a crime to sell a magnet that potentially has an illegal use any more than it is a crime to sell a gun that potentially has an illegal use (though the Bradys want to change that).

And this thing apparently comes with a full disclaimer and warning, but only after you open the package do you see it.

This whole thing stinks if you ask me. What really ticked me off was the fact that they were using a featureless rifle to demonstrate the thing. And touting it as a way around the bullet button law.

I wonder how many of these have been sold to people who aren't aware of the actual laws and aren't reading anything on CG.

[oaklander]

First off, OLL's are still in California largely due to the work of about five people. Bill is one of the main ones, so make sure you heed what he is saying.

I've also done my part too. In fact, I helped draft a petition to the OAL (California Office of Administrative Law) that prevented the DOJ from passing an underground regulation that would have taken a very restrictive view on the definition of "fixed magazine."

When Bill and I talk about this issue, we know what we are talking about.

That being said, I DID talk to your salesperson today. I didn't want to be a d*ck because his family was there, but I did tell him that he needed to have a MUCH STRONG DISCLAIMER.

Originally Posted by Mag Magnet

What do you want? A handout to read before purchase?

Yes. It should state in LARGE BOLD LETTERS something along the lines of the following: THIS DEVICE MAY NOT BE USED IN CALIFORNIA EXCEPT ON .22 RIMFIRE FIRARMS. ILLEGAL USE OF THIS DEVICE IS A FELONY. I'm not giving you legal advice, so talk to your lawyer to get the exact wording that you need.

Originally Posted by Mag Magnet

I seem to recall a long time ago when an AR-type receiver was considered by many to be illegal. The CA AW law is poorly written, and even now a lot of guys do stuff (guns & stuff to guns) that is considered ok by some, not ok by others. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you are uncomfortable with an OLL rifle, buy a Ruger or Kel-Tec.

The above line simply isn't true. The law is very clear, and there are no gray areas. Based on our experience and research, we have determined that certain things are legally defensible, and other things ARE NOT LEGALLY DEFENSIBLE. Your device, if used in California on a centerfire BB-equipped OLL is 100 percent ILLEGAL, there is no gray area at all. Do not delude yourself that you are being in the gray area. There is no "gray area."

You need to make the above very clear to anyone who buys your device. IMHO, your device has limited usefulness, and is simply going to trip up some inexperienced noob. It is only a matter of time before I will hear about someone with one of these who got arrested.

I would suggest that you use your design and marketing skills to come up with a better bullet button, or something that helps people STAY LEGAL, instead of something that helps people BREAK THE LAW.