WARNING: "MagMagnet" magnetic cap for Bullet Button sold at gunshows: DO NOT USE/BUY!

[bwiese]

Today at Cow Palace Gunshow I saw a product that made me more than cringe.

It's the "MAG MAGNET" from Mag Magnet, Inc. Their website is at http://www.ar-magmagnet.com but thankfully their website is dead.

The device is a small magnetic cap that fits over the Bullet Button device and allows manual operation of the Bullet Button. It effectively is a new mag catch button operable from one's finger.

I have acquired one from someone who kindly donated it to CGF for discussion/analysis.

THIS PRODUCT, - IF USED/INSTALLED ON AN AR with BULLET-BUTTON MAGLOCK (i.e., an AR build with "features")
WILL TRIGGER ASSAULT WEAPONS STATUS. YOU WILL BE COMMITTING AT LEAST ONE - IF NOT MORE - FELONIES
(MANUFACTURING/POSSESSION OF AN UNREGISTED ASSAULT WEAPON.

• The person in the booth selling these was counseled by multiple parties to not sell this.
• Most of the traffic at this guy's booth were noobs who are just starting to get into OLLs, or people watching me yell at him

• The person staffing the booth carefully demos his device on a 'featureless' build (no PG, no FH, either U15 stock or MM grip)
  with needless Bullet Button & 10rd mag, thus not triggering AW status.
• His assertions that it's legal are notably absent a "put your money where your mouth is" stance - using it on a BB-maglock'd build with features.

• He asserts it's a tool. Whether or not magnetic, the device can stay on a BB device and it then serves as a large mag button
• The pkg includes a warning sheet (exact quote except for some abbreviations or possible typos):
  
  "For use in California, do not leave Mag Magnet on rifle at any time. Mag Magnet is intended to be used
  as a magazine tool to comply with Title 11 Calif. Code of Regulations Sec. 5469(a) and California Penal
  Code 12276.1. Leaving Mag Magnet on firearm mag designate it as an illegal assault weapon in violation of
  California law. The CA Dept. of Justice has not taken action on the Mag Magnet.
  
  Do not use Mag Magnet in California on magazines with capacities larger than 10 rounds. It is advised that
  Mag Magnet user become familiar with Calif. DOJ requirements and updated interpretations of existing laws
  and regulations.
  
  Mag Magnet Inc. shall not be held responsible in any way for the inappropriate use of the product by the
  user. User asssumes all liability and risks associated with ownership and use of this product. Mag Magnet
  Inc. shall not be held responsible in any way for the inappropriate use of this product by the user. User
  assumes all liability and risks associated with ownership and use of this product."
  
  
  

• The packages are sealed and buyers have told me they do not get to see the warning sheet before purchase.
  During my enquiries I was told the bag was sealed, could not open. It was only verbally described as legal
• The vendor says he has had an attorney check it out, a former LA DA. (I'm betting he said "it's legal if
  you don't sell it attached to a gun confgured as XXX"....)

• THIS PRODUCT IS NOT A TOOL. WHEN MOUNTED ON A BULLET BUTTON IT MAKES THE BULLET BUTTON A
  NORMAL FINGER-OPERATED MAG CATCH AND THUS TURNS "FEATURED" AR BUILDS INTO ILLEGAL AWs.
  
  
• THERE IS NO TIME SPECIFICATION IN THE LAW FOR HOW SHORT OR LONG THIS PRODUCT COULD BE ON A
  BulletButton MAG LOCK BEFORE TRIGGERING AW STATUS. THE *INSTANT* THE DEVICE IS ON THE BULLET BUTTON
  IT'S A LARGER MAG CATCH BUTTON JUST LIKE THAT OF A STOCK FREE-STATE AR15. There simply is no time limit
  allowed in CA law for an illegally-configured AW.

• THE SITUATION ON THIS DEVICE IS VERY SIMILAR TO WHY "TOOLS" SHOULD NOT BE ATTACHED VIA STRING
  TO A MAGLOCK'D GUN - THEY LIKELY WILL BE REGARDED AS PART OF THE GUN AND NOT A TOOL.
  
  
• Thiis device would be problematic even if nonmagmentic and held on by friction, gravity, gunk/lube accumulation, etc.

This product is simply NOT needed and only will cause problems:

- it's generally unusable in California

- it's not needed outside CA, where a regular AR mag catch can be dropped in or removed in ~30 seconds.

- the people it's being marketed to are noobs being led down a troublesome path.



PLEASE USE YOUR CALGUNS KNOWLEDGE TO VOCIFEROUSLY DISSUADE OTHERS FROM BUYING/ACQUIRING THESE DEVICES FOR USE ON A GUN.
IF YOU SEE NOOBS AT A GUNSHOW BUYING ARs WITH THEM, PLEASE CAUTION THEM. (Be nice - they thought they had a legit product from a legit vendor.)

While legal in & of itself, these devices put the owner in real danger for multiple felony AW charges - no matter what a former supposed LA DA has said.

The best an owner of such a rifle w/such a device could hope for, if and when charged, is an AB2728 surrender of rifle or misdemeanor or a rare dismissal for nonclarity (highly unlikely).

[NB: The only real use for this product I can see would be for a person like myself with off-list Category 3 (only!) Registered AWs.
Such reg'd AWs could be equipped with Bullet Buttons (providing they're over 30" OAL) and then used with this Mag Magnet device to
be operable AWs at range, yet when transporting them home a 10rd magazine is installed before, locked in by the Bullet Button, and
with no Mag Magnet cap on the BB maglock. At this point the reg'd Cat 3 AW is no longer an AW and can be transported as a non-AW,
and without worry of "specific destination" laws. It also might be used for rimfire vs centerfire exchanges when a rimfire upper is in place.]


IF THE OWNERS/SELLERS OF THE MAG MAGNET WANT TO COME HERE AND DISCUSS THEIR PRODUCT'S LEGALITY AND SALES STRATEGY, FINE.

IF THEY WANT TO SUE ME FOR DEFAMING THEIR PRODUCT OR ORGANIZATION, FINE. (Take a friggin' number.)


Please let me know if you find vendors/gunshops selling these devices, rifles being imported into California with these installed, or FFLs selling fixed-mag/BB'd rifles equipped with these.


At least the Latino dude selling various AR, etc. parts stopped selling Glock forward grips and buttstocks when warned; he just didn't know.

[BroncoBob]

Thanks Bill for getting this information out.

[thedrickel]

It was very convenient . . . I bought an AR from CWS, crossed the aisle and bought a mag magnet, and I was ready to rock! CWS even said they would install it for me for 35$!

[missiondude]

I was looking for one of these to use when my dedicated 22lr upper is being used. Is there a problem with that?

[grunz]

Thanks for the post Bill. I saw this fellow at the Cow Palace today and he wouldn't state either way whether or not it it was legal to put it on a BB AR.

I did however think it spoke volumes that he only demoed his product on a featureless monsterman AR. When I asked him what use this was on such a gun - sine it could have a real mag release - he just shrugged.

I've seen magnet TOOLS before but they were sold and advertised as such. This thing is marketed as a solution and and not just a tool. There is dangerous implication in the message.

[Alaric]

Thanks for the heads up Bill. I have a few questions on behalf of the devils advocacy.

What specifically separates this implement from other "tools" used to manipulate a BB?

Is it the magnetic aspect that "attaches" it to the BB? Too permanent?

Is it the fact that it can somehow stay attached to the BB in spite of the magnetism (due to gravity or friction or whatever)?

If so, should anything magnetic (say, a light screwdriver with a magnetic tip) be likewise avoided?

Clearly, this implement is treading in a gray area of the law, and users should be very wary of using this in California (I wouldn't). My concern is that if this implement is being marketed as a "tool" and not an "accessory" then wouldn't it reside in the same territory as muzzle breaks (legal) vs. flash suppressors(illegal), if you get my drift?

[Harley]

My cousin and I saw this at the Ontario Gun show and questioned the seller, he stated that he had a letter with a disclaimer from his lawyer in the packaging with the magnet clarifying the legalities.

We turned around and walked away.

[badreligion]

The same device was being sold at the Ventura gun show today as well. $25 dollars each. I watched them demo it several times and passed, especially when they turned the rifle over, shook it and their device didn't fall out due to the magnet. In my opinion if you shake something like this and the "tool" doesn't fall out or off it is meant to stay thier no longer making it a "tool" but an accessory. A drill is a tool, a drill bit is an accessory. I think most people passed because of the cost, not because of the legal reasons. Thanks for getting this word out Bill.

[jaymz]

Originally Posted by missiondude

I was looking for one of these to use when my dedicated 22lr upper is being used. Is there a problem with that?

Don't need maglock for rimfires. But no, I would not use one for the simple fact that you would be supporting a manufacturer that seems to be misleading people that don't know any better, down a VERY slippery slope.

[professorhard]

Why's it such a big deal? Plenty of people switch between .22 uppers and bolt conversions and centerfire uppers. It'd be easier to just pop this on when a rimfire upper is attached, easier than having to switch out the standard mag release everytime.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by Alaric

What specifically separates this implement from other "tools" used to manipulate a BB?

Any tool a la a 'bullet tip' (specifically mentioned in the law) and that momentarily contacts the maglock latch and is not supported, retained, tied to, or mounted on the gun would be fine. This includes screwdrivers, knife blade tips, little Velcro'd plastic finger pointer tips on your fingertip, etc.

It likely does NOT include a screwdriver hanging from your AR on a string, or a detachable cap on a mag catch that can stay on and be operated with a finger.

Is it the magnetic aspect that "attaches" it to the BB? Too permanent?

As I said, even if were nonmagnetic it could still stay on and be regarded as part of the gun, a "big mag catch button that's loose/not screwed down".

I'd dissuade anyone from using any device that can rest on/by the BulletButton, in some or many particular rifle position(s) and still be used.

A bullet tip or other analogue ("long skinny tippy thing") a la screwdriver, etc. will indeed not be able to "reside" in the hole or be considered offending. A cap that fits over the BB and that can hang out there unsupported by hand and which can activate the mag lock can be regarded as a "non-tool" and part of one of the rifle's subsystems.

Is it the fact that it can somehow stay attached to the BB in spite of the magnetism (due to gravity or friction or whatever)?

Yup.

Let's say we had something like pill bottle cap or lid with a dimple inside that could rest on the BB (or be taped on it) and activate it. I'd say that use of that kind of device should be avoided.

If so, should anything magnetic (say, a light screwdriver with a magnetic tip) be likewise avoided?

I don't really think any magnetic-tipped screwdriver should be worried about, I don't think they support their own weight and their ability to maintain a positional relaitonship w/rifle & BB opening is marginal. Furthermore, a screwdriver itself has the advantage of being a 'tool'

my concern is that if this implement is being marketed as a "tool" and not an "accessory" then wouldn't it reside in the same territory as muzzle breaks (legal) vs. flash suppressors(illegal), if you get my drift?

Yes and No. Bottom line, you get 'detachable mag' status that triggers AW status with this device.

Muzzle brakes and flash hiders at least have documentation of screwups by DOJ in the Hunt case. While all AW-triggering features should in theory have equal priority, I think MB/FH issues are far more defendable if the person buys a device that is marketed as a MB and looks like one. Furthermore, there's no great test for MB vs FH issues - whereas the test for detachable mag status is pretty easy to understand/observe.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by professorhard

Why's it such a big deal? Plenty of people switch between .22 uppers and bolt conversions and centerfire uppers. It'd be easier to just pop this on when a rimfire upper is attached, easier than having to switch out the standard mag release everytime.

If indeed it were sold with that and marketed with that and the guy had an "application sheet" viewable before sale, I'd be somewhat happier.

But those folks are relatively few. Most folks are buying 5.56 ARs and the noobs are looking for shortcuts and this guy is appealing to that mindset.

Remember, one reason we at CGF really support the BB device over earlier screwdown mag locks is because DAs were well aware that quite a few asshats were loosening their maglocks.

What I see here, bottom line, is a dude that wants to make $25 sales without caring about his gunnies/customers getting popped. The fact that apparently his warning sheet is not viewable outside the package before the sale, as reported to me, is also most disturbing.

[EOD3]

Some people work tirelessly to raise stupidity to a fine art.

[Nxd9ar15xcrL]

I saw it too. It is a worthless $25 item that is going to get someone in trouble.

They advertise it as being so easy to use. Well... on a featureless AR with a Monster Man Grip, you don't even need a BB. If you get caught with that thing on a Pistol grip, you are screwed.

It's a Scam and that company shouldn't be allowed in the shows.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by grunz

Thanks for the post Bill. I saw this fellow at the Cow Palace today and he wouldn't state either way whether or not it it was legal to put it on a BB AR.

That may've been after our little drama earlier in the afternoon.

I did however think it spoke volumes that he only demoed his product on a featureless monsterman AR.

You and I agree - says volumes, doesn't it?

When I asked him what use this was on such a gun - sine it could have a real mag release - he just shrugged.

Yep - and contrast that with the info about legal parts use you get from any of the other quality vendors at the show. Most vendors want their customers to stay out of trouble and come back for future sales; felony charges put a damper on that.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by Nxd9ar15xcrL

I saw it too. It is a worthless $25 item that is going to get someone in trouble.

They advertise it as being so easy to use. Well... on a featureless AR with a Monster Man Grip, you don't even need a BB. If you get caught with that thing on a Pistol grip, you are screwed.

Correct (rimfires and registered AWs are exceptions, but those are a very small subset of market and the way it's being sold obviously does not worry about or deal with these distinctions).

It's a Scam and that company shouldn't be allowed in the shows.

I have spoken with management. They're very nice people. Somehow, though, they feel they'll get an answer from DOJ which I doubt - or I'd doubt the correctness of one way or another.

[Hogxtz]

Untill I had spent many hours on these forums and became educated on the murky gun laws of Calif, I very well could have walked out of a gun show with one of those magnets and not known any different.

That's a horrible thing to sell to an unsuspecting person that is new to AR's. To think some person could find themselves in the back of a patrol car with serious charges with their whole life turned upside down because of deception is just plain scary.

[Nxd9ar15xcrL]

I agree. But If the Gun Shows, NRA, Calguns and all the rest of us want to keep the politicians at bay, this kind of product needs to be shut down.

[EOD3]

Given that the device MUST attach to the magazine catch itself (unless they've invented an aluminum magnet), all they're doing is extending the recessed magazine catch.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by EOD3

Given that the device MUST attach to the magazine catch itself (unless they've invented an aluminum magnet), all they're doing is extending the recessed magazine catch.

Yup.

[bodger]

It sounds like it would be just as bad as using the standard mag release.

Maybe the DOJ will clear it up for them. Yeeah.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by bodger

It sounds like it would be just as bad as using the standard mag release.

Maybe the DOJ will clear it up for them. Yeeah.

Nope.

And I think some at DOJ would like to see some folks get hung up so that people panic and stop buying OLLs.

I'd like to get another 200+K OLLs in CA as soon as possible. But we need to stop both FUD and entrapping/bad information and walk the narrow white line.

[goober]

thanks bwiese...
coming up with a product and selling it is great...
but misleading folks, even by omission, just to sell them something that could very well land them in jail, is NOT cool.
as always, you and hoffmang and others do us a great service by continuing to look out for our best interests.

[alain209]

thanks for the info.

[hawk81]

A sucker is born everyday.

[Alaric]

Thanks for the followup on my questions Bill, good clarification on the issues at hand.

It seems there's a fairly fine line between a "tool" and an "accessory", and the distinction should be made as clear as possible, whenever possible. Since the DOJ refuses to play ball and in fact seems intent on muddying the waters and spreading FUD, it becomes incumbent on us to provide this delineation. As usual, you've done the California firearms community another great service.

[artherd]

It's not a tool if it's part of the gun.

This walks over that line, and is not suitable for use in CA.

[MP301]

Ill take it!

I saw this Magnetic button here on calguns in the commercial section a few months ago. Dont know if its the same people that were at the gunshow, but there were calgunners buying it.

However, in this case, it was marketed exactly how it should have been. For use outside of California so you dont have to screw with changing your mag button. I am guilty of this laziness and I know several otehrs are as well!

I think its a great product if marketed correctly, but it sounds like the guy at the gunshow was not doing his job at educating folks so he could get a quick sale. Not good.

And, the one advertized here was only $10....

here found a links..Solar Tactical

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...light=magnetic

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...light=magnetic

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...light=magnetic

[joefrank64k]

Were they similar to the magnetic "Rapid Release Button" being sold by Solar Tactical?

http://solartactical.com/product.sc?...&categoryId=20

He advertises them for use on .22LR or out-of-state...he was selling them here on CalGuns for a while, but he CLEARLY said they were for .22LR or OOS use.

[ricochet]

Not same as the Solar device. Just a little oval shaped piece of plastic containing a magnet on the back that would "attach" to the bullet button. On one part of his packaging, he says the word "tool" but because it attaches itself to the BB, I think that's a hard sell.

A couple ways to look at this is the guy that's selling it is trying to dupe people (noobs) into thinking he's selling a little piece of plastic, that won't put them in jail. The other way to think of it is that the guy is also selling it to people who know the law and will casually palm the device if the gun is to be inspected (nudge, nudge; wink, wink).

Either way, he's scum ...

[oaklander]

What a douche!

I will also talk to him tomorrow.

[Trench Broom]

This guy needs to market his product correctly, or get shut down ASAP.

[dwtt]

Couldn't someone give the seller a copy of the OLL flow chart? He should be able to figure it out after a few minutes.

[Cokebottle]

Originally Posted by dwtt

Couldn't someone give the seller a copy of the OLL flow chart? He should be able to figure it out after a few minutes.

The seller obviously knows the law, because he is demonstrating the unit on a featureless AR.

The issue is that the conditional warning that their attorney wrote for the product is sealed inside the package, and he is actively marketing it to people who don't know the law and have non-featureless AR models.

[Mag Magnet]

Hello all,
First off, I would like to apologize for any confusion. It has never been our intent to deceive anyone by accident or on purpose. This is only our second week selling these and we are still working on the best approach for marketing our product. The packages are sealed on purpose to ensure that our legal warning is included with every Mag. Magnet sold and will be read by the purchaser. Anyone that is interested, is welcome to read the legal warning before making the choice to purchase. Our Ventura show had an open package with the legal warning on the table. I was not at the San Francisco show and I regret that the legal warning may not have been out in the open for customers to read. I will make sure that it is properly displayed at all future show tables. We do our best to make sure any potential customers are aware of the limitations of the Mag. Magnet.
Our website is not dead – it is currently under construction and will be fully operational in a couple of weeks. The website will also have a legal warning and user agreement that must be agreed to in order to make a purchase. Once again we are not trying to make a quick buck at the expense of others. Some of our largest purchases were made by FFLs. In fact, we are firearms enthusiasts as well and do not want anyone to do anything that may be considered to be illegal. Ultimately, firearms can be deadly weapons and it is the responsibility of the user to operate their gun in a safe and legal manner. Sales staff training will be even more comprehensive to make sure our employees are not misleading anyone or disseminating false information.
If anyone has any problems with a purchase from us, please bring your Mag. Magnet back to us in good condition at any gun show and we will give you a full refund. The card included on the packaging has our contact number. Please call us at 619-490-0830 first before blasting us on an online forum so we can try to resolve any issues. I will check PM’s as often as possible as well.
P.S. – Our table at the Ventura show was next to JD Machine but we are not affiliated with them in any way.
With respect to all,
MAG. MAGNET INC

[technique]

and the plot thickens

[bwiese]

Specific other firms, selling such a device with express caveats for limited circumstances, are not the problem.

The AR MagMagnet is being sold in bland terms in a sealed package with any warnings only discoverable after the sale.

Some people will do skanky things for $25, and not all those people are crack whores.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by Mag Magnet

First off, I would like to apologize for any confusion. It has never been our intent to deceive anyone by accident or on purpose.

Well, the actions of your SF show staff - and the actions of staff elsewhere at other shows also reported to me - seems to indicate you are trying to sell as a general use product an item that has only specific, very very limited uses in narrow circumstances.

The fact your dude(s) demo a featureless OLL - which doesn't need a Bullet-Button-affixed mag anyway - speaks worlds.

This is only our second week selling these and we are still
working on the best approach for marketing our product.

OK, I'll write your blurb and save you the effort:

"95% of the time this product will make a CA OLL rifle with
features into an illegal assault weapon in California. The
rest of the time it's not needed because the rifle's mag
status is irrelevant."

The packages are sealed on purpose to ensure that our legal warning is included with every Mag. Magnet sold and will be read by the purchaser. Anyone that is interested, is welcome to read the legal warning before making the choice to purchase. Our Ventura show had an open package with the legal warning on the table. I was not at the San Francisco show and I regret that the legal warning may not have been out in the open for customers to read. I will make sure that it is properly displayed at all future show tables. We do our best to make sure any potential customers are aware of the limitations of the Mag. Magnet.

If you do that, you won't sell any. I interviewed several folks walking away from the booth at the SF Cow Palace show. Most were thinking it was an alternate to the bullet button that allowed manual removal of a magazine.

Some smarter folks, already understanding of CA law, walked away knowing there were problems - and that the device loses any "tool" status when it's hanging on the BulletButton.

Furthermore, even if it's taken on & off in a moment, that's irrelevant: there's no "minimum time restriction" on felony conduct.

the website will have a warning and user agreement that must be agreed to in order to make a purchase.

If you really disclose the limitations on this product very few will buy it:
1. it's not legally usable on a CA OLL w/BB maglock & 12276.1PC features
2. someone travelling out of state can uninstall BB & add regular
mag catch (and reverse it before returning to CA);
3. it is maybe useful to those converting btwn rimfire vs centerfire uppers on same lower;
4. it is usable to some with registered Category 3 AWs having BBs installed, so the BB can take gun out of AW status for more relaxed transport requirements.

Once again we are not trying to make a quick buck at the expense
of others. Some of our largest purchases were made by FFLs.

We are already hearing of FFLs thinking this 'solves' the Bullet Button "problem".

Sales staff training will be even more comprehensive to make sure our employees are not misleading anyone or disseminating false information.

Start from scratch with the dude at the Cow Palace. He failed IQ 101.

Please call us at 619-490-0830 first before blasting us on an online forum so we can try to resolve any issues. I will check PM’s as often as possible as well.

When dozens (or how many other) folks are buying a product that can likely turn them into instant felons for its most direct, obvious application, we Calgunners DO speak up.

I witnessed quite a few folks today that thought they could have manually detachable mag ARs with this device, as long as BB was installed.

Again, this is NOT true. This product can be used ONLY in the ways I've listed it above (and perhaps also as a cat toy).

[badreligion]

Mag Magnet - I viewed your sales table for several minutes today and it seamed to me you were more interested in selling your product to whomever wanted to spend the $25 rather than inform potential customers about the hazards they may face when using your product. When I veiwed someone from your booth turn the rifle over and shake it to show a potential customer 'that it would be hard to lose while shooting their rifle', I walked away. Most vendors who sell items at gun shows that may be questionable to either an informed or uninformed buyer tend to put up a facts sheet to help inform potential customers.

Your product may potential cost someone their future freedom to own firearms.

Bill, I stole your last line.

[383green]

Originally Posted by bwiese

This product can be used ONLY in the ways I've listed it above (and perhaps also as a cat toy).

It would make a better cat toy if it had a laser built in.