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Permit/License To Carry Training Classes & Experiences Discuss Concealed Carry Permit/License classes here.

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  #1  
Old 02-13-2022, 9:43 AM
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Default Couples training

I have not been successful at finding an Oregon class that covers couples training together for CCW.

While it's obvious that safely shooting is the endpoint of a bad day, there should be a lot more in the awareness/recognition, evasion/avoidance training than a 'simple' CCW class seems to provide.

What things do you do to work with your partner/spouse?

ETA - this thread is a bit of a wish for an existing class, and perhaps someone knows of something at least in the West that might fit. I'm aware of Gunsite's "Team Tactics for Two" (see https://americanhandgunner.com/disco...-team-tactics/) but we lack the pre-requisites, and the desert is not our favorite environment.

But I'd be happy if our Collective could create the beginnings of a syllabus for such a class, that perhaps might match what professional educators want to do.

Last edited by Librarian; 02-13-2022 at 12:59 PM..
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Old 02-13-2022, 9:55 AM
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We both have OR CHL; I carry, and my wife has yet to find a method she likes - nothing she wears has a belt. I'm working on her, slowly, to pick a method.

We already have a start with coded communications; may sound silly, but we're Gilbert and Sullivan fans, so starting a conversation on G&S is our 'hey, wake up, be deliberately Condition Yellow' code. Sometimes one of us might zone out a bit ...

Assuming we cannot avoid/evade, we need to consider defensive tactics.

There's a particular, relatively dark opera called 'Ruddigore' - moving the comments to Ruddigore is 'Condition Orange - we're about to go into the soup'

But soup time - what do each of us do that contributes to a successful withdrawal or combat?
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Old 02-14-2022, 7:16 AM
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Have a code word/phrase that is only ever spoken when things are likely to go south very quickly. Use a word/phrase that is easy to say and to remember, but not one that would ever come up in a normal conversation.

When that word/phrase is spoken, it should trigger specific levels of awareness and possibly actions.
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Old 02-14-2022, 11:50 AM
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If you were near Mendocino County (CA) I'd suggest doing a private lesson with https://www.mendoccw.com/about. Maybe a few days of get-away? a day or two wine tasting in Sonoma/Napa and a day training with Ron.

More seriously though, maybe there is someone in your local area that does this sort of private lesson? Ask the CCW classes if they can recommend anyone?
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Old 02-14-2022, 12:21 PM
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If you were near Mendocino County (CA) I'd suggest doing a private lesson with https://www.mendoccw.com/about. Maybe a few days of get-away? a day or two wine tasting in Sonoma/Napa and a day training with Ron.

More seriously though, maybe there is someone in your local area that does this sort of private lesson? Ask the CCW classes if they can recommend anyone?
Working on that. Most local training is run by ex military, and focuses on gun handling and shooting. Both of those are important, of course, and we can always improve. But, shooting is just one component - one level of view higher is what I want: team tactics, including communication, movement, and then shooting. 'Designed plays', if you will.

But classes aimed at the under-50 set are a bit physically ambitious for us fogeys.

That's one of the gotchas with Gunsite; they do have a 250 class for 'seasoned' students, but it doesn't qualify as the pre-requisite for the team class. Says so, right on the class description page.

Last edited by Librarian; 02-14-2022 at 6:34 PM..
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Old 02-14-2022, 12:43 PM
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Have a code word/phrase that is only ever spoken when things are likely to go south very quickly. Use a word/phrase that is easy to say and to remember, but not one that would ever come up in a normal conversation.

When that word/phrase is spoken, it should trigger specific levels of awareness and possibly actions.

We have more then one code word.
One just gets everyone on alert. (kids too).
One tells my wife I am stepping in front of her to hide her draw.
One tells the family to hit the ground/ take cover because I or wife is going hot. (taking a shot)
One that tells family to move to exits.
One that tells the my wife I am not carrying And visa verse.

We have others developed for specific situations, but you get the drift.

Best thing to do is open a dialog with your spouse and come up with specific code words which always require specific responses.
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Old 02-14-2022, 12:56 PM
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While it's obvious that safely shooting is the endpoint of a bad day, there should be a lot more in the awareness/recognition, evasion/avoidance training than a 'simple' CCW class seems to provide.
Something I think most people don't realize is that most CCW classes (as mandated by various gov't agencies) focus on firearm safety rather than concealed carry and self defense. Utah's, for example, is based on NRA's Basic Pistol class which is designed for absolute beginners who have never handled a firearm before.

In the San Joaquin CCW class I teach I put a lot of emphasis on what happens before and after the shooting itself because I don't think it gets enough attention. De-escalation techniques, reading body language, situational awareness, sight lines, transitional spaces are just a few examples. Learning how to shoot better is fun (and we teach that too) but what happens before and after is in many ways more important than the actual shooting part of personal defense.
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Old 02-15-2022, 2:56 AM
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I'm not saying it isn't the right thing to do, but I do question the use of code words/phrases.

Why not just say "we're in deep ****, you cover our six, I'll cover forward". Or, "Things feel iffy, do you see anything suspicious"? Or "trouble brewing, make for the rear exit NOW"?

Why complicate things using code words that might be forgotten or misunderstood?
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Old 02-15-2022, 7:51 AM
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I'm not saying it isn't the right thing to do, but I do question the use of code words/phrases.

Why not just say "we're in deep ****, you cover our six, I'll cover forward". Or, "Things feel iffy, do you see anything suspicious"? Or "trouble brewing, make for the rear exit NOW"?

Why complicate things using code words that might be forgotten or misunderstood?
Because it's probably a bad idea for me to shout "Hunny I'm stepping in front of you so you can draw your gun without the BG noticing."

Also a bad idea to shout "I'm gonna do my quick draw and shoot, duck"

What was the saying?? Oh yeah, "If you fail to plan, plan to fail"

Incidentally wife and I have code words for lots of other things too. We really don't need to openly announce our movements.

And the whole concept of being the gray man is going unnoticed. Hard to do that when your shouting "we're in deep ****, you cover our six, I'll cover forward". Or, "Things feel iffy, do you see anything suspicious"? Or "trouble brewing, make for the rear exit NOW"?
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Old 02-15-2022, 3:02 PM
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Originally Posted by dav View Post
I'm not saying it isn't the right thing to do, but I do question the use of code words/phrases.

Why not just say "we're in deep ****, you cover our six, I'll cover forward". Or, "Things feel iffy, do you see anything suspicious"? Or "trouble brewing, make for the rear exit NOW"?

Why complicate things using code words that might be forgotten or misunderstood?
I'm with 71Musty on this.

I think 'communication' is established as an important skill in the self-defense scenarios I envision.

I would expect distance/audience to be important.

Suppose you're walking down the street and see/hear a drive-by occurring, or a riot? No need for code words or hand signals, straight up saying 'We gotta get outta here!' should work well.

OTOH, we have a 3-syllable word that means 'grip - draw - fire!' and requires 'stay away from my gun hand and do not walk in front of me'. (Tied into the Gilbert and Sullivan theme, completely unique.)

We also have a couple hand signals for less urgent situations. I have one for social gatherings to indicate 'time to go home'; that allows for graceful 'well, we gotta go, ...' polite unwindings that may take 15 minutes. But I don't have to go interrupt a conversation.

The problem with hand signals, of course, is getting someone to actually look at your hands!

Going back to the 'designed plays' idea, consider word codes like 'calling an audible'; confronted with opposition, one might need to change a plan to another planned sequence. Both the 'audible' and the 'plans' need to be studied and practiced - which is where the class I'd like comes in.

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Old 02-16-2022, 12:31 PM
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Because it's probably a bad idea for me to shout "Hunny I'm stepping in front of you so you can draw your gun without the BG noticing."

Also a bad idea to shout "I'm gonna do my quick draw and shoot, duck"

What was the saying?? Oh yeah, "If you fail to plan, plan to fail"

Incidentally wife and I have code words for lots of other things too. We really don't need to openly announce our movements.

And the whole concept of being the gray man is going unnoticed. Hard to do that when your shouting "we're in deep ****, you cover our six, I'll cover forward". Or, "Things feel iffy, do you see anything suspicious"? Or "trouble brewing, make for the rear exit NOW"?
Sorry, that is not convincing. Why in the world would you shout?

If who you are with is sufficiently unaware of the new danger, they need to first realize you are speaking in code, then interpret the code, then react. Plus, what if you are with a buddy unaware of your codes?

Again, please stick with what makes you comfortable. As will I.

Librarian, good point. My wife and I do have a hand signal for "time to go".
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Old 02-16-2022, 8:13 PM
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Sorry, that is not convincing. Why in the world would you shout?

If who you are with is sufficiently unaware of the new danger, they need to first realize you are speaking in code, then interpret the code, then react. Plus, what if you are with a buddy unaware of your codes?

Again, please stick with what makes you comfortable. As will I.

Librarian, good point. My wife and I do have a hand signal for "time to go".
He does have a valid point though, it's good to have a FEW code words for different things just so things go unannounced and the "threat" doesn't know about your strategy.
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Old 02-16-2022, 9:18 PM
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So, just to keep this moving, here are some things I've thought about - with no information on whether such things make any sense (thus the need for a class - I know I tend to make things more complicated than necessary).

*SETTING*

Suppose some evening I and my wife are walking back to our car after dinner, in a 'neighborhood commercial' part of Eugene, a small city. That means an artery or two with light commercial - restaurants (open), small shops (mostly closed) at around 8 pm. Cross streets lead to nice older residential areas, and we have parked about half a block into the residential area.

We've been to this place before; it avoids all the obvious 'stupids'. No dark alleys or doorways, no gangs hanging around, no biker bars. Parking is 'full' in this block; plenty of room to get in and out of spaces, but no empty spots except for driveways for the houses.

Real place, we go to dinner at a particular restaurant here a few times per year.

Today the conditions would be I'm carrying, and my wife is not - not even pepper spray or a flashlight. (Yes, I'm slowly working on that. She has gun and light and pepper spray, just doesn't carry any of it .)

*PLOT*

Coming towards us is a person, apparently a young male. All we see is one. He's not walking a dog or carrying groceries or listening to headphones. He doesn't look like a homeless person. He is, however, the first young person I've seen in the neighborhood ever, so little flag is waving in my head.

Nothing about him says 'cross the street to avoid', and that would take us across the street from where we are parked. Nothing says 'better turn around and go back to the restaurant', but that is the retreat route. Nothing says 'hand on pepper spray'.

He gets to 6 feet from us, on his side of the sidewalk, pulls a knife and accelerates.

OK, pretty much everybody knows 'Get Off The X'.

But how do we both execute that, and stay out of each other's way?

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Old 02-17-2022, 7:10 AM
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The scenario you describe doesn't leave much time for commands. What you describe sounds more like a need for general team tactics: the first person to react does whatever they consider appropriate and the second plays off the lead of the first.

Generally speaking you want to split up and separate so the attacker has to concentrate on one of you (and therefore is exposed to attack from the other). So you have a simple preplan that when attacked the first thing you both want to do is separate a little to present two targets/threats and then either defend (if you are armed) or yell for help calling 911 while running away (if unarmed). You're not too specific in your plans, like saying if you're on the left you always break left. Circumstances/environment/whatever may dictate otherwise. Instead you keep it general and say the first person to react goes in one direction and the second person goes in a different direction.

I think the main benefit of a code word or gesture is to alert the other person to a situation they may not have noticed yet. That's it. Keep it simple but talk through lots of "what if" scenarios so everyone's on the same page about how both of you might react in different circumstances.

To use a dance analogy it's like the difference between west coast and east coast swing. In east coast swing the music plays, the male decides what dance moves to perform and the female does exactly what the male directs. In west coast swing the same music can be playing but both partners have freedom to choose different dance steps as they dance together.

The final option in the scenario you described is to firmly shove your partner into the attacker's path while you backpedal and draw. Remember you don't have to run faster than a bear, just faster than who you're with.
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Old 02-17-2022, 10:41 AM
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I think the over-arching theme needs to be, as General Mattis said, 'Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.'

Paranoia? Maybe. Overstatement, perhaps.

That's only a problem if 1) you have to execute the plan or 2) you have to do the plan but you don't have a plan that time.

Excluding obvious higher risk components such as some homeless or gang members, imagine walking down Market Street in San Francisco about 1 PM on a Tuesday. It would be exhausting to individually assess every pedestrian for threat-value, and there would be the folks coming up from behind for whom one would have no time at all to assess. But I know I'm more tense on Market than other places. (There are other paces where I would be yet more on edge, but I don't go there - I Do Not Fit In with the locals.)

Now, imagine walking in the Hayes valley neighborhood in SF, early evening. 'Neighborhood commercial' in a large city - streets are smaller, sidewalks are narrower, lot of young urban professionals at the restaurants ('yuppie' is falling out of fashion, but it really is not tied to a generation/age group).

The 'feel' of those two locations is very different.

What am I seeing that causes me to evaluate 'Hayes: low (not NO) risk' and 'Market: higher risk'?
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Old 02-17-2022, 10:50 AM
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Sorry, that is not convincing. Why in the world would you shout?

If who you are with is sufficiently unaware of the new danger, they need to first realize you are speaking in code, then interpret the code, then react. Plus, what if you are with a buddy unaware of your codes?

Again, please stick with what makes you comfortable. As will I.

Librarian, good point. My wife and I do have a hand signal for "time to go".
I guess I see your point, not everyone's spouse is equal but my wife worked on the Psych floor for years and is accustomed to listening for code words. My Buddy won't know our plans and is on his own unless it is someone I trained with I can not predict or count on his actions, sorry. You would also be surprised to know that while we always try to be aware of our surroundings, events can sometimes distract one or the other and we do not always see a potential threat at the same time, so a simple code word works well to get us on the same page. For me first wife I would have needed to put the code word in a Gucci Ad.

If code words do not work for you, don't use them. We have successfully used them for 27 years, my wife can even tell me your are being inappropriate without you even knowing it.
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We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls.


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Old 02-17-2022, 10:27 PM
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'Code words' seem to have led off into the weeds.

It isn't the stimulus, however delivered or perceived, it's the actions those might initiate that are important.

My parents were native speakers of both English and a European language; their parents were immigrants. They chose not to teach the European language to their children, reserving it so they could have private conversations in front of us. They had code words.

In a conflict event, a group of opponents might communicate in German or Russian or Spanish or Chinese, and I might have very little idea what they might be saying. But if they had to explain 'you go here, you wait there, you hold the door, you juggle the hedgehogs' in some non-English language -- or, I had to do that in English with my wife/partner -- it takes time one might not have in the situation.

That's the stuff you should do in training - thus my search for a class, or some sharable wisdom for those who might want to contribute to this thread.

Maybe training will lead to a method of assessment that suggests commonly understood, trained-together behavior, with no words needed. I have no experience in it, but from what I have read, that seems to be the case for infantry house-clearing teams.

But civilians in most of America are really unlikely to need even to need to be armed, much less trained in team tactics and secret communications. The level of investment in those skills has to be sold as proportionate to the perceived risk.

As I get older, I perceive that my victim-selection status is changing; we look more vulnerable as the hair goes gray and the eyes get worse. We have invested in tools and some basic training, and I want more skill in using that.
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Old 02-28-2022, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dav View Post
Sorry, that is not convincing. Why in the world would you shout?

If who you are with is sufficiently unaware of the new danger, they need to first realize you are speaking in code, then interpret the code, then react. Plus, what if you are with a buddy unaware of your codes?

Again, please stick with what makes you comfortable. As will I.

Librarian, good point. My wife and I do have a hand signal for "time to go".
Hmmm....I think he is saying his code words keep him from having to shout.

Our code word is intended to be spoken or even whispered at a level commensurate with the background noise. Shouting in a quiet environment would draw unwanted attention from others and whispering in a noisey environment might not be heard.

Good points on having multiple words for different threat levels and intended actions. Librarian's scenario seems quite realistic. The exchange of thoughts, ideas, and rationale are appreciated.
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Old 03-23-2022, 7:04 PM
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Any more thoughts?
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