ATTENTION: Rock River Arms rifle & LAR-15 lower owners (AND FFLs!)

[thefinger]

Originally Posted by fevillago

Can someone please clarify if is safe to own a RRA LAR pistol lower marked "RRA PISTOL ONLY"

Refer to the picture below I borrowed from another post.

As long as you DROS'd it as a pistol in CA and you have a BB on it its legal to own here.

[thefinger]

Originally Posted by jamesob

i have a rra lower with a bushmaster cara3 upper and a registered rra pistol with a rra pistol upper, i'm not scared.

+1. LAR-15 is a pretty common OLL found here in CA. I don't see how you run any greater risk with an LAR-15 than any other OLL. Either the cop understands the concept of "off-list" or he doesn't.

[Gottlieb]

I tend to agree - if "LAR15" is not on the list, then it should be legal, right?

[Intimid8tor]

I bought a factory built RRA A4 rifle many moons ago. When it came to California I simply swapped uppers and lowers so there was no possible confusion. When the time comes where the laws are struck down, I'll then not worry about it.

Other than that, there are simply too many other options to take the risk.

At least IMHO.

To each his own and do what you are comfortable with.

[Gottlieb]

My problem is that I bought this gun as-is from a major show dealer, who had a whole table full, and who I figured would know better.

[tacticalcity]

Originally Posted by thefinger

+1. LAR-15 is a pretty common OLL found here in CA. I don't see how you run any greater risk with an LAR-15 than any other OLL. Either the cop understands the concept of "off-list" or he doesn't.

I would be shocked if they made up even 5% of the OLL market place. But since I sell everything BUT the lower, I could be wrong. Happens to me all the time.

When it comes down to it, if it is legal to own then it is legal to own. Follow Bills advice to make sure you meet the letter of the law.

Perhaps it is because I was around when BlackHawkOps was arrested for owning OLLs, I tend to be more cautious than a lot of the newer OLL guys. That guy had to spend time in jail, lost a ton of money, had his military security clearance and thus his military police career messed with, never got all his belongings back, and was painted as a "nut" by news programs and newspapers across the country. All because someone saw a picture of him on his myspace page holding an OLL build. Bear in mind, he did not win. They reached a plea agreement. There is a big difference. They dropped most of the charges, but not all of them. The piled a lot of other bogus charges onto him, so the could strip a few things off later and still get him for at least something. Making it much wiser to plea out to something minor than go to court and fight each and every charge. Real life is definately not fair.

Odds are you will not encounter any problems at all. More and more police and DAs are becoming aware these things are out there and are legal. Back when BlackHawkOps got into trouble, these were no where near as common place and there was a lot of behind the scenes political games being played. The only real worry you have is confusion on the part of the arresting officer, DA or Judge or running into somebody with an agenda other than their win loss record. Both situations are a lot more rare than they used to be, if not almost non-existant.

I just would really hate to see you become the next BlackHawkOps. It would really suck. That's all I was trying to say.

[bwiese]

While I do want people to "sweat the details", sufficient care can be taken to alleviate concerns even on an all-RRA gun.

The descriptions of the guns banned on the Kasler list are known. If your RRA LAR15 lower + RRA upper looks different than any of those, it's not a banned RRA model.

This is one of the rare cases where noncharacteristic features changes [such as putting a MagPul grip & buttstock on, plus (say) a VLTOR handguard can render the gun into a configuration not banned]. Since the various banned RRA entities differ in small trivial noncharacteristic features from other non-banned guns changing these out to have a visibly different gun profile & ergonomics renders it not a banned model.

Remember that RRA is also a determiner of what comprises one of their gun models, not the DOJ or local LE. Expert testimony can be garnered should an issue ever occur.

Again, I doubt this issue will arise:
- the RRA lower is marked "LAR-15", which is indeed off-list;
- investigations of such rifles 99.99% of time involve it as "LAR-15";
- few if any DA investigators or LE agencies would have the skill
set, time or budget to differentiate an RRA upper from Stag, Bushy, etc.

CGF can readily help if such issues came up. I just want to ensure nobody's on the edge with a gun they have since minor tweaks can ensure it's not in banned territory. We also have Harrott clarity issues to fall back on in addition to all the above.

What I'm saying, bottom line, is:
- don't panic;
- if you have a non-RRA upper that looks like one of the uppers on a banned configuration, keep the receiot.
- if an "all RRA" gun take precautions above such that gun profile does not match the banned entity in 2000
- and I don't think DOJ at this point will get crazy on this issue;


Relax, breathe deeply. It's not like it's marked "Colt AR-15" [and even that may well be defendable due to former DOJ staffer Iggy Chinn!]

[tacticalcity]

Ah, Iggy! Bringing back memories by mentioning that name...and not very good ones.

[HotIce]

Originally Posted by bwiese

Again, I doubt this issue will arise:
- the RRA lower is marked "LAR-15", which is indeed off-list;
- investigations of such rifles 99.99% of time involve it as "LAR-15";
- few if any DA investigators or LE agencies would have the skill
set, time or budget to differentiate an RRA upper from Stag, Bushy, etc.

CGF can readily help if such issues came up. I just want to ensure nobody's on the edge with a gun they have since minor tweaks can ensure it's not in banned territory. We also have Harrott clarity issues to fall back on in addition to all the above.

What I'm saying, bottom line, is:
- don't panic;
- if you have a non-RRA upper that looks like one of the uppers on a banned configuration, keep the receiot.
- if an "all RRA" gun take precautions above such that gun profile does not match the banned entity in 2000
- and I don't think DOJ at this point will get crazy on this issue;

Sorry to pull this up from the grave, but I am somehow interested in this.
I will be moving in CA with three RRA AR-15 (with BB and 10R mag installed), all marked LAR-15 in the lower, and for which I can provide some sort of receipt or email order confirmation which list a model name different from the listed ones ("Varmint", "Tactical CAR Rifle SS", "National Match A4").
What is the best course of action in case a discussion with LEOs comes up?
Would it be better to say they are LAR-15 (kinda hiding info, somehow), or supply the receipt/emails which show different model namings?

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by HotIce

Sorry to pull this up from the grave, but I am somehow interested in this.
I will be moving in CA with three RRA AR-15 (with BB and 10R mag installed), all marked LAR-15 in the lower, and for which I can provide some sort of receipt or email order confirmation which list a model name different from the listed ones ("Varmint", "Tactical CAR Rifle SS", "National Match A4").

The specifically-banned RRA rifles on the Kasler list (11 CCR 5499) are...

• Rock River Arms, Inc. Car A2
• Rock River Arms, Inc. Car A4 Flattop
• Rock River Arms, Inc. LE Tactical Carbine
• Rock River Arms, Inc. NM A2 - DCM Legal
• Rock River Arms, Inc. Standard A-2
• Rock River Arms, Inc. Standard A-4 Flattop

All the above rifles have a receiver marked "LAR-15" and the receivers themselves are off-list.

It appears your complete rifles are not banned by name for the whole rifle either.

What is the best course of action in case a discussion with LEOs comes up? Would it be better to say they are LAR-15 (kinda hiding info, somehow), or supply the receipt/emails which show different model namings?

By standard ATF naming standards, they are LAR-15. You are not lying if you tell them it's an off-list LAR15. Don't volunteer information either - most people talk themselves into jail.

This is an edge condition that 99.9999% of cops, DAs / DA investigators won't even know about. The fact this concern even exists is the fault of the casual way the Kasler list (11 CCR 5499) was formulated. Frankly, I (along with a few others) are probably amongst the few folks that think of these things - but I am paranoid and want people to know of exposure (mostly for those that somehow got one of the 'wrong' guns and wanna keep it legal).

If you have some LE contact and one of your guns is looked up, the cop'll read off over the radio/MDT the "LAR-15" sideplate info.

These guns may be depicted in the outdated Calif. AW Identification Guide ("AWIG", also called "the DOJ's coloring book").

Keep your receipts just in case, and CGF can help you as long as you're legal (i.e, if what you've told me above is true) The key thing is to keep your rifles lawfully configured - using a BulletButton maglock, or going featureless with a MonsterMan grip or U15/ExileMachine stock, etc.

[HotIce]

Thanks again for the info.
Would it help in any way, to stay more on the safe side, to keep upper and lower separated inside the case?