ATTN FFLs: Rostering doesn't apply to intrafamily xfers from outside CA

[davew]

Depends on how you read the following:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/

B9) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity? [Back]

Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.



(B10) May a person who is relocating out of State move firearms with other household goods? [Back]


Yes. A person who lawfully possesses a firearm may transport or ship the firearm interstate when changing his or her State of residence.

Certain NFA firearms must have prior approval from the Bureau of ATF before they may be moved interstate. The person must notify the mover that firearms are being transported. He or she should also check State and local laws where relocating to ensure that movement of firearms into the new State does not violate any State law or local ordinance.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(4) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.28 and 478.31]

[compulsivegunbuyer]

I'll bet $100 that no one can find a FFL in California and another state to do this.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by compulsivegunbuyer

I'll bet $100 that no one can find a FFL in California and another state to do this.

I've found two in this thread.

Originally Posted by halifax

Yep. Done it a few times and this, Bwiese, is very good advice:

Originally Posted by PIRATE14

We've done several HGs through out of state intraF xfers.....which, correctly stated they are exempt from the roster....

Just make sure it's the right family member....

Pretty sure the 1 per 30 days doesn't apply either.....

And there is no need to involve a out-of-state FFL in the deal, so why would we need to find one?

So, where's my $100

[artherd]

Originally Posted by compulsivegunbuyer

I'll bet $100 that no one can find a FFL in California and another state to do this.

We have a number of FFLs that are cooperative, well defended, and don't take any guff from Cal DOJ.

[barrykay]

Originally Posted by artherd

We have a number of FFLs that are cooperative, well defended, and don't take any guff from Cal DOJ.

Why not name them???

[halifax]

Originally Posted by artherd

We have a number of FFLs that are cooperative, well defended, and don't take any guff from Cal DOJ.

I really didn't have to take any guff (or FUD) from the DOJ specialist I talked to when I did this the first time. He was very helpful. But I do like the "well defended" part of your post.

[LexLuther]

Please correct / advise me on this idea.

Colorado sister could gift a new non-list handgun to California Father. Once it is here, California father could gift the item to California son?

Should there be a period of time between each transfer, or could it just be as simple as Dad gets the gun in Cali, decides he doesnt like / want it and gifts it to son?

Thanks in advance for the comments, I really appreciate the contributions from the CG members / founders who have posted to this thread. Artherd, Librarian, or any other CG board member...If you are ever up in the Redding area, the drinks are on me.

Thanks Lex

[luckystrike]

Originally Posted by bwiese

Normally, lineal intrafamily transfers within CA do NOT need to use FFLs. Ensure your kid has a HSC card, hand the pistol to him, and tell him to fill out the DOJ form and pay $19 within 30 days (or whatever the fee is).




]

is this for those 21 and up?

when I called DOJ , well one of the times, I was told when I was 19 that I need a note in addition to an HSC and DOJ form from a parent to transport it anywhere......

but then again I called DOJ 4 times on that same matter and you guessed it, I got 4 different answers.

[luckystrike]

might have to dumb it down for me....so can my dad transfer a pistol to me from out of state? are there specific DOJ forms for that??

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by luckystrike

might have to dumb it down for me....so can my dad transfer a pistol to me from out of state?

yes he can, through a CA FFL.

are there specific DOJ forms for that??

no there isn't. It just needs to be transfered through a CA FFL as a roster-exempt transfer.

There is a CADOJ intrafamily form but it is for intrastate transfers, and won't work in this situation since the transferor is a resident of a different state.

[CBO]

So, if im understanding this correctly, the imformation I recieved from a local ffl is false. My mother has gifted me a rifle in GA. I went to find out how to get it here. They told me if I was going out there to visit soon (which I am) that I should simply flly back with it (checked, with airline notification of course) and then fill out the DOJ registration and pay my $19. Is this false??

[shark92651]

Originally Posted by CBO

So, if im understanding this correctly, the imformation I recieved from a local ffl is false. My mother has gifted me a rifle in GA. I went to find out how to get it here. They told me if I was going out there to visit soon (which I am) that I should simply flly back with it (checked, with airline notification of course) and then fill out the DOJ registration and pay my $19. Is this false??

Long guns are not registered in California - just make sure it is not considered an AW in California and spend that $19 on ammo instead.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by CBO

So, if im understanding this correctly, the imformation I recieved from a local ffl is false. My mother has gifted me a rifle in GA. I went to find out how to get it here. They told me if I was going out there to visit soon (which I am) that I should simply flly back with it (checked, with airline notification of course) and then fill out the DOJ registration and pay my $19. Is this false??

OK, it sounds like mom is still alive. In that case, with her being a non-licensed (doesn't have an FFL) resident of GA, and you being a non-licensed resident of CA, it is a violation of Federal law for her to give you the rifle and for you to import it back to CA. You must use a CA FFL to facilitate the transfer from her to you. You can't just bring it back with your and fill out a CADOJ form. A CADOJ form does not exempt you from federal law, and there is no federal intrafamily exemption.

[swhatb]

VERY GOOD INFORMATION!!! Thanks.

Originally Posted by bwiese

It seems quite a few FFLs are confused about handgun Rostering matters w/regards to certain interstate/ intrastate transfers.

Yes, you can't buy a non-Rostered nonexempt handgun from Joe Blow in Nebraska via Gunbroker and have it shipped to your CA FFL and DROSed to you. [We will avoid discussion of NRF frames here, as that's a separate matter.]

However, Rostering is not applicable for lineal intrafamily transfers (or inheritances) of non-Rostered nonexempt handguns.

Normally, lineal intrafamily transfers within CA do NOT need to use FFLs. Ensure your kid has a HSC card, hand the pistol to him, and tell him to fill out the DOJ form and pay $19 within 30 days (or whatever the fee is).




It gets more complex when the supplying family member is outside CA:

• use of a CA FFL is only required to keep the *BATF* happy:
  guns can't move across state lines without an FFL (except
  for probate/inheritance)

• despite above, there's still no *California* requirement to use
  an FFL for this matter: the intrafamily exemption says no
  licensed party required. (By that they mean FFL + DOJ CA license
  dealer)

[Formally inherited/bequested guns can cross state lines without usage of FFLs - and there's exemption in CA law for this too. Rostering not required.]

Thus, your dad/grandad/kid (lineal only) in Nebraska can ship the non-Rostered nonexempt handgun to your local CA FFL. The gun is DROSed+4473'd like a normal purchase - but on the DROS screen an exempt notation should be added: "12078PC intrafamily transfer".

It is helpful to the gun dealer if a (copy of a) letter can be added to his files for your transaction, specifying the exact gun, the lineal family relationship, and the names of the two parties:

"Gentlemen,

I want my grandson, Maximus Gunnie Jr., to
have my nice Colt 45 pistol, serial #12345.

Yours truly,
Grandma Biggie Gunnie
<date>"

That helps the FFL during any prospective DOJ audit.

This transaction is *not* a PPT: FFL fees are not restricted to $35, unlike PPTs, and the FFL can charge whatever he wants for the transfer.

The above information is not 'aggressive' and has even been told repeatedly to FFLs in the past by DOJ Firearms staffers. [Some DOJ Firearms phone clerk types do not understand this, however, and just may give a blanket answer, however.]

Here's the relevant law:

12132. This chapter ("Unsafe handgun" Rostering stuff) shall not apply
to any of the following:

(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Sec 12082
in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

Just says that private party transfers must go thru a licensed dealer
(meaning a CA FFL w/CA + local permits etc) and that Rostering is
not required for such PPTs.

(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from the
provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 12072 pursuant to any applicable
exemption contained in Sec 12078, if the sale, loan, or transfer complies
with the requirements of that applicable exemption to subdivision (d) of
Sec 12072.

Here it is... Rostering isn't required for guns exempt from PPT provision (12072(d))
due to a 12078 exemption. [The latter phrase "...if the sale, loan, or transfer ..."
just means that all the rules of the particular exemption from PPTing must be followed,
it's a bit of near-throwaway legalese.]

12078 is the section including a variety of exemptions from FFL use: intrafamily
transfer, inheritance, infrequent loan provisions, etc.


(c) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm as described in paragraph (3)
of subdivision (b) of Section 12125.

12125(b) just lists Roster exemptions for prototypes to be manufactured, imported,
submitted or analyzed for approval, exemptions for the anaylzing party, exemptions
for C&R handguns,exemption for LE agencies.


(d) The delivery of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed
upon the person to a person licensed pursuant to Sec 12071 for the purposes of
the service or repair of that firearm.

Doesn't need to be Rostered for in-CA repair/gunsmithing.


(e) The return of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed
upon the person by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 to its owner
where that firearm was initially delivered in the circumstances set forth in
subdivisions (a), (d), (f), or (j).

Doesn't need to be Rostered for return from in-CA repair/gunsmithing.

(f) <<<consignment/pawning exemptions from Rostering>>>

(g) <<<C&R exemption from Rostering, kinda duplicated>>>

(h) <<<Olympic pistol exemptions>>>



useful 12078PC exemptions include:

12078(c)(1) <covers intrafamily exemption to PPT procedures for firearms>
12078(c)(2) <covers intrafamily exemption to PPT procedures for *handguns*>
12078(c)(3) <define 'intrafamily': btwn grandparent/parent/child/grandchild>
12078(d) <covers 'infrequent loan' provisions>
12078(e) <yet another to/from gunsmithing exemption>
12078(f) <yes, you can send a gun to out of state FFL>
12078(i) <operation of law exemptions including inheritance/bequest>

[CBO]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

OK, it sounds like mom is still alive. In that case, with her being a non-licensed (doesn't have an FFL) resident of GA, and you being a non-licensed resident of CA, it is a violation of Federal law for her to give you the rifle and for you to import it back to CA. You must use a CA FFL to facilitate the transfer from her to you. You can't just bring it back with your and fill out a CADOJ form. A CADOJ form does not exempt you from federal law, and there is no federal intrafamily exemption.

How would I go about doing this legally while im in GA then? Just ffl it out there to one here? Or does she really have to travel to CA with it and do it here...she has already mentiond that doing this would make her very uncomfortable so that would be disappointing.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by CBO

How would I go about doing this legally while im in GA then? Just ffl it out there to one here? Or does she really have to travel to CA with it and do it here...she has already mentiond that doing this would make her very uncomfortable so that would be disappointing.

your mother can either ship it to a CA FFL (dealing with a CA FFL that understands the intrafamily exemption and is willing to accept a shipment from a non-licensee) and when you get back to CA, you deal with the DROS to get it transferd to you. OR, your mother brings it with her the next time she visits you in CA and hand-delivers it to your local FFL, who will then DROS it to you.

[kekoa1969]

So, is there an FFL in the O.C. that understands this & would do it? Could my brother in UT gift a P250 & an LCP to our dad here, then dad turn around & gift them to me?

[cyberhh]

If anyone knows of an OC FFL that will do this FTF my mom is coming out and has some stuff for me...

thanks

[DaveFJ80]

Just so that I'm clear on this, from reading this thread and the Calguns Wiki FAQ about Intrafamily transfers.....


My dad is now a resident of South Dakota (and is ex-LEO of CA, but I know that doesn't matter). He is physically bringing a non-rostered handgun (SA XDm) with him to CA to do the Intrafamily transfer.

- Will a FFL still be needed?
- Does it go by where the handgun and transfer are physically taking place?
- Or does it go by where the current registered owner resides?
- Will the DOJ transfer form need to be filled out and mailed in seperately with payment? Or can this be done at the FFL?


And a side question....

- Can the Intrafamily transfer include a gun with either no mags, or the high cap mags broken down and transferred to me in CA as rebuild kits? Specifically the SA XDM mags.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by DaveFJ80

Just so that I'm clear on this, from reading this thread and the Calguns Wiki FAQ about Intrafamily transfers.....


My dad is now a resident of South Dakota (and is ex-LEO of CA, but I know that doesn't matter). He is physically bringing a non-rostered handgun (SA XDm) with him to CA to do the Intrafamily transfer.

- Will a FFL still be needed?
- Does it go by where the handgun and transfer are physically taking place?
- Or does it go by where the current registered owner resides?

yes, an FFL is still needed and federal law requires that an FFL in the recipient's state be involved in the the transfer of the handgun.

- Will the DOJ transfer form need to be filled out and mailed in seperately with payment? Or can this be done at the FFL?

in this case, the oplaw form is not needed. It is used when both parties are CA-residents and the handgun was transfered without using an FFL. But since federal law requires an FFL be used, you don't need to use the oplaw form. The DROS covers the info that the form would provide to CADOJ.

And a side question....

- Can the Intrafamily transfer include a gun with either no mags, or the high cap mags broken down and transferred to me in CA as rebuild kits? Specifically the SA XDM mags.

In order to comply withthe safe handling demo that the PC requires, there should operational magazine with the handgun.

[spiderpigs]

Originally Posted by DaveFJ80

Just so that I'm clear on this, from reading this thread and the Calguns Wiki FAQ about Intrafamily transfers.....


My dad is now a resident of South Dakota (and is ex-LEO of CA, but I know that doesn't matter). He is physically bringing a non-rostered handgun (SA XDm) with him to CA to do the Intrafamily transfer.

- Will a FFL still be needed?
- Does it go by where the handgun and transfer are physically taking place?
- Or does it go by where the current registered owner resides?
- Will the DOJ transfer form need to be filled out and mailed in seperately with payment? Or can this be done at the FFL?


And a side question....

- Can the Intrafamily transfer include a gun with either no mags, or the high cap mags broken down and transferred to me in CA as rebuild kits? Specifically the SA XDM mags.

I basically have this same issue, let me know how you handle the Magazine issue

[mtsul]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

OK, it sounds like mom is still alive. In that case, with her being a non-licensed (doesn't have an FFL) resident of GA, and you being a non-licensed resident of CA, it is a violation of Federal law for her to give you the rifle and for you to import it back to CA. You must use a CA FFL to facilitate the transfer from her to you. You can't just bring it back with your and fill out a CADOJ form. A CADOJ form does not exempt you from federal law, and there is no federal intrafamily exemption.

Just wondering but I thought intrafamily transfers of a long gun could be just "here you go son" and that was it, or is this different since its out of state?
Also if she came to CA with the gun couldent she just hand it to him and say "here you go son alls good and done"?

(I know only up or down Son to mother grandfather or vice-versa, and no side to side sister to brother)

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by mtsul

Just wondering but I thought intrafamily transfers of a long gun could be just "here you go son" and that was it, or is this different since its out of state?
Also if she came to CA with the gun couldent she just hand it to him and say "here you go son alls good and done"?

(I know only up or down Son to mother grandfather or vice-versa, and no side to side sister to brother)

no, federal law basically requires all transfers between residents of different state use an FFL to facilitate the transfer. There is no federal intrafamily exemption to that requirement.

It would be a federal crime for an non-CA-resident mother to transfer a firearm to a CA-resident, even if she was in CA at the time of transfer. She must use a CA FFL to transfer the firearm to a CA resident.

[Saym14]

Originally Posted by spiderpigs

I basically have this same issue, let me know how you handle the Magazine issue

have dad mail the mag kits to you ahead of time. build at least one to hold 10 rounds permanantly and then use it for the handling test after your 10 days.

[titus7]

So can my uncle give me his hk45 he lives in Nevada?

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by titus7

So can my uncle give me his hk45 he lives in Nevada?

no, intrafamily exemption applies to grandparent, parent, child, grandchild. Siblings, cousins, uncles, etc do not fall under intrafamily.

[luckystrike]

so.....my dad out of state can intrafamilia transfer me a off roster pistol, and when it gets to my ffl there is no 10 day wait?

[Dr Rockso]

Originally Posted by luckystrike

so.....my dad out of state can intrafamilia transfer me a off roster pistol, and when it gets to my ffl there is no 10 day wait?

What? No, the roster has nothing to do with the 10 day waiting period.

[luckystrike]

Originally Posted by Dr Rockso

What? No, the roster has nothing to do with the 10 day waiting period.

roger, just confirming that since its NOT a PPT there is no 10 day wait?

[luckystrike]

Originally Posted by Saym14

have dad mail the mag kits to you ahead of time. build at least one to hold 10 rounds permanantly and then use it for the handling test after your 10 days.

wait so you DO have to wait 10 days?

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by luckystrike

wait so you DO have to wait 10 days?

yes, any firearm transfered through a dealer requires you to wait 10-days.

[Dr Rockso]

Originally Posted by luckystrike

roger, just confirming that since its NOT a PPT there is no 10 day wait?

Yes, you still have to wait the 10 days on any firearms purchase through a CA dealer (excluding some corner cases involving C&R transactions where the purchaser holds a certificate of eligibility from the DOJ).

[luckystrike]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

yes, any firearm transfered through a dealer requires you to wait 10-days.

Originally Posted by Dr Rockso

Yes, you still have to wait the 10 days on any firearms purchase through a CA dealer (excluding some corner cases involving C&R transactions where the purchaser holds a certificate of eligibility from the DOJ).

cool, thanks for the help

[B.J.F.]

According to the ATF, your family straight up or down in a line can give you their firearm. When I worked at bright spot, Marna the auditing ATF agent answered that for us. How ever California DOJ does request that you fill out and send in the form to register the firearm and that form does not have a "10 Day Waiting Period" also note that when a family member say a grandfather gifts his firearm to say his legal aged son, daughter, grandson or grandaughter, etc.... that they also be legally able to possess said firearm. You can not just give your family member a firearm if they are not in a straight line, say your brother, cousin, aunt or uncle a firearm with out doing a PPT and a 10 day wait. Also note they have to personally give you the firearm either by them bringing it to you or you going to get it. FFL transfer rules only apply if they mail it

[B.J.F.]

luckystrike, you also cannot do a PPT of an off roster handgun if the person you are getting the handgun from is not present in the store at the time of the registration. PPT is only for the currently registered owner to transfer to a new owner

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by B.J.F.

According to the ATF, your family straight up or down in a line can give you their firearm. When I worked at bright spot, Marna the auditing ATF agent answered that for us. How ever California DOJ does request that you fill out and send in the form to register the firearm and that form does not have a "10 Day Waiting Period" also note that when a family member say a grandfather gifts his firearm to say his legal aged son, daughter, grandson or grandaughter, etc.... that they also be legally able to possess said firearm. You can not just give your family member a firearm if they are not in a straight line, say your brother, cousin, aunt or uncle a firearm with out doing a PPT and a 10 day wait. Also note they have to personally give you the firearm either by them bringing it to you or you going to get it. FFL transfer rules only apply if they mail it

why does ATF care about CA law? We know that there is an intrafamily exemption to CA law.

If you are saying that ATF is saying that there is a federal intrafamily exemption to the interstate transfer law, I'd like to see the exemption.

[B.J.F.]

For me to receive my grandfathers revolver, who lives in wisconsin. He had to come here and hand it to me personally. Granted, to come to CA to give someone something on its own is way more expensive than just using a FFL so you allready have to be comming for a visit.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by B.J.F.

For me to receive my grandfathers revolver, who lives in wisconsin. He had to come here and hand it to me personally. Granted, to come to CA to give someone something on its own is way more expensive than just using a FFL so you allready have to be comming for a visit.

handed it to you personally, as in he did it without using an FFL?

If so, how did he do it without violating this regulation?

§ 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and

(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

your grandfather was still alive, so exemption (a) does not apply.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by B.J.F.

For me to receive my grandfathers revolver, who lives in wisconsin. He had to come here and hand it to me personally. Granted, to come to CA to give someone something on its own is way more expensive than just using a FFL so you allready have to be comming for a visit.

That sounds like a problem.

Inheritance is exempt from using an FFL on an interstate transfer. If your grandfather came to CA and handed you the revolver, he clearly was still around (and long may he be so!) and 'inheritance' does not apply.

Should have both gone to a CA FFL and done the interstate transfer there. But shipment from WI to a CA FFL (who understood what was happening and was expecting the gun) would also have worked.

[philobeddoe]

I haven't read every post, so forgive me if this has been covered,

but over the years I have done numerous intrafamily transfers, legally, with off roster handguns, between out of state family members

there is no requirement for background check or roster compliance, nor FFL transfer

registering the handgun with CA DOJ is completely elective

the only issue is that the transfer must be done FTF,
either by the family member coming to CA with the handgun,
or you traveling to the family member to pick up the handgun,
and then transporting it legally back to CA ... for example via car or airline

but you may not ship the gun into the state

.