NFA Trusts (EDIT: Fee Added)

[joefrank64k]

Thanks for the update!

[Notorious]

Originally Posted by m24armorer

Tomorrow I will give you guys a link to NFA trusts, it's on a favorite silencer forum. And it works.

Updates?

Originally Posted by oaklander

The main idea is to make sure that the trust, by its operation, never creates an illegal situation. This has to remain true now, 20 years from now, 40 years from now, etc. . .

BUT, please, please, please make sure that you have a lawyer who is familiar with NFA issues review the completed document before you submit it to the ATF.

There is simply too much at risk to attempt to save a few bucks on something like this.

True. Too many people try to save a buck only to end up spending more bucks to clean up the mess they made. Then they expect a lawyer to work miracles to save them from themselves.

Originally Posted by Telperion

I've read into the use of NFA trusts since they became widely known. It seems the common places where the legality of ownership comes into question are:

- someone other than trustee in possession
- trustee unable to serve, or legally disabled from possession
- beneficiary legally disabled from possession
- situations arising from a trust merger

Again, I've seen a lot of innuendo from lawyers, but I'd like to hear specifics of why Willmaker trusts are deficient.

Pretty much where you pointed it out... Willmaker and those fill in the blank trusts do not take into account the 3rd party or 4th party actions that may arise when the trust is exercised by operation of law. Not to get into specfics but the way a trust operates, sometimes people who are not covered in your original intent becomes involved, which can be tricky when it comes to NFA items.

[JagerTroop]

Originally Posted by oaklander

Folks, I am getting swamped with 2A work, and thus need to refocus my time on the 2A work. I have contacted another "trusted" (pun intended) lawyer who is located in California, and can do these trusts. It appears that he will do them at the same price.

IF you are interested in an NFA trust, please contact:

David Duringer
1-888-929-9455
info@lawnews.tv
GunTrust.org

I just spoke with David this morning. He is no longer doing NFA trusts.

I am looking to start one. Please advise.

[CAL.BAR]

Anyone interested in NFA trusts may PM me. I am the atty working with Mike at O.C. Armory to do the NFA trusts on the Sebu shortys etc. I did the trust for O.C. Armory which has already been approved by the ATF. (Tax Stamp issued!)

David J. Salvin, Esq

[GuyW]

I hope people line up to pay David money...
.

[bluestaterebel]

Originally Posted by GuyW

I hope people line up to pay David money...
.

How much money are we talking about?

[titus7]

Im in line...the wife even ok'd this one haha

[fevillago]

Originally Posted by bluestaterebel

How much money are we talking about?

any update on the price?

[Lancear15]

Also very interested in this, please update or PM.

[CALI-gula]

LOVE THIS THREAD!!

This thread reminds me of the kind of discussion in what 95% of what Calguns USED to be. Ironically, I see a lot of old names posting in it.

All good stuff!

.

[Rogue187]

@ Oaklander

Were you able to find an associate that is local to the SF Bay Area that is willing to assist in the creation of the NFA Trusts?

[Ishoot]

Originally Posted by Rogue187

@ Oaklander

Were you able to find an associate that is local to the SF Bay Area that is willing to assist in the creation of the NFA Trusts?

I'm interested in this as well. Pm me with any details please. Thanks

[scarry scarney]

Originally Posted by djandj

Anyone interested in NFA trusts may PM me. I am the atty working with Mike at O.C. Armory to do the NFA trusts on the Sebu shortys etc. I did the trust for O.C. Armory which has already been approved by the ATF. (Tax Stamp issued!)

David J. Salvin, Esq

So, bottom line, whats the est for the Sebu shorty, trust, and stamp?

If you do not want to post, feel free to pm me.

Thanks

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by scarry scarney

So, bottom line, whats the est for the Sebu shorty, trust, and stamp?

here's price break down on it posted in OCarmory's SSS thread.

Originally Posted by beemaze

From what I gathered in discussion with Mike:

Weapon Cost: $750 + local sales tax

Federal Tax Stamp: $5

NFA Trust: $500ish?

CA DROS: $25

Gun Lock: $10 (lol)

So, that should be your approximate costs. If you need more info than that, contact OCarmory and talk to them yourselves to get the exact costs yourself. Mike would probably know the exact price that djandj charges for the trusts.

[LOW2000]

Originally Posted by lunde

I did the latter. I spoke with the NFA branch of the ATF who advised that I should use my California address on the Form 4, but that the CLEO signoff should be from the county of the other state where it is intended to be stored. Because there is no place on a Form 4 to specify that the storage location is somewhere other than my physical address, I included the following in a letter that became an attachment to my Form 4:


The process was remarkably simple. I sent the Form 4 to the ATF on 05/16/2007, and it was approved on 06/11/2007.

On this topic, is something as simple as a bank safe deposit box sufficient for ATF storage regulations?

I'd gladly pay the yearly fee for a box at a bank near stateline that would allow me to pick up a suppressor on the way to out of state carbine classes.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by LOW2000

On this topic, is something as simple as a bank safe deposit box sufficient for ATF storage regulations?

yes, it is.

Originally Posted by ATF NFA FAQ

Q: If an individual is changing his or her State of residence and the individual’s application to transport the NFA firearm cannot be approved because of a prohibition in the new State, what options does a lawful possessor have?
NFA firearms may be left in a safe deposit box in his or her former State of residence. Also, the firearm could be left or stored in the former State of residence at the house of a friend or relative in a locked room or container to which only the registered owner has a key. The friend or relative should be supplied with a copy of the registration forms and a letter from the owner authorizing storage of the firearm at that location.

The firearms may also be transferred under the procedures referred to in “What are the required transfer procedures for an individual who is not qualified as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer of NFA firearms?” or abandoned to ATF.

[oaklander]

OK everyone - I started working with David Goldman again. He's the attorney who has drawn up what I think is the best NFA Trust.

The NEW price is $600. We were writing them for $750, but we decided that even though we don't make as much money at $600 - it will be nice to see even more people in California own NFA weapons!!!!!!

AND - you only need ONE NFA Trust, ever. And considering how expensive NFA weapons are, it's a good deal - especially when you consider that the penalties for "doing it wrong" are fairly severe.



So, if you are interested - please check out my new site at: http://CaliforniaNFAtrust.com/ - then give me a call, or shoot me an email. . .

KLT

[armygunsmith]

So, since it's the only NFA trust I will ever need, it will be good to go if I move to another state?

[oaklander]

The trust doesn't die if you move - you might need to amend it. That's about it.

Originally Posted by armygunsmith

So, since it's the only NFA trust I will ever need, it will be good to go if I move to another state?

[armygunsmith]

Very good. Thank you, sir.

[lavgrunt]

Okay, so help me out here, hypothetically........I am a California resident. I set up an NFA trust. I have a friend who lives is Nevada. Said friend allows me to store a gunsafe at his home. Can I buy say, an MG42 under the trust and specify on the Form 4 where it will be stored? Don't I still have to be a Nevada resident to even buy the MG42?

Please excuse my ignorance if I am waaaaaay off base.............

[oaklander]

Shoot me a PM - this is a complex answer - please include your email address. ..

Originally Posted by lavgrunt

Okay, so help me out here, hypothetically........I am a California resident. I set up an NFA trust. I have a friend who lives is Nevada. Said friend allows me to store a gunsafe at his home. Can I buy say, an MG42 under the trust and specify on the Form 4 where it will be stored? Don't I still have to be a Nevada resident to even buy the MG42?

Please excuse my ignorance if I am waaaaaay off base.............

[ke6guj]

that is an interesting question that comes up on the NFA forums from time to time, and I don't recall what the correct answer is. usually, guys want to get an NV NFA trust (or some other NFA-friendly state) set up to have the NV trust buy the firearm in question. Since the NV trust is buying the firearm, it can be purchased in NV. The issue is, when it is time to pick up the firearm, it must still be 4473'd, and since the trust is a legal entity, a physical person has to actually fill out the 4473, on behalf of the trust. At that point, I don't recall if federal law would allow an out-of-state person to fill out the 4473 on behalf of the instate NV trust. And then, if you toss in CA law trying to require CA residents to go through CA DROS, it gets even more complicated. At that point, it may be worth seeing if the trust can be drawn up to have a NV resident as part of the trust that can purchase on behalf of the trust and have them fill out the trust.

That type of scenario is where having an attorney that knows the in and outs of trust law, and how to draw up a NFA-specific trust, to deal with those tricky situations, is important.

[oaklander]

Yes - K nailed the issue. The attorney I work with has confronted this before, and I *think* he knows a way to do it. . . a legal way.

LOL

[Operator]

There are many types of trusts out there, seems like each has their intended purpose, Are there any "other" benefits to an NFA trust? Can it be used for estate planning, or inheritance issues? Or will this trust only be used for the legal ownership and permitting of NFA weapons?

[oaklander]

NFA Trusts should only be used for NFA Weapons. The stuff "owned" by the trust is handled WAY differently than the stuff "owned" by other trusts.

There's no money saving by trying to use an NFA Trust for non-NFA stuff. The risk is too high - not worth it.

That being said, - the trust that we do does have very detailed provisions that direct how the NFA weapons will "pass" from person to person - so it does have estate planning provisions - and these can be tailored to fit within a larger existing (or new) estate plan - if needed.

That is why Quicken is so crappy for these, BTW - it can't handle complex events - and if things pass wrong - then there are problems!!!!

For example, if a trust just says something like "all of the stuff in this trust will pass to X, upon Z's death" - that's normally fine.

BUT!

If Z's trust owned an NFA weapon - and X was a prohibited person at the time of Z's death - the trust itself would cause something illegal to happen (X owning a firearm).

That kind of stuff is just scary to me!!!

Originally Posted by Operator

There are many types of trusts out there, seems like each has their intended purpose, Are there any "other" benefits to an NFA trust? Can it be used for estate planning, or inheritance issues? Or will this trust only be used for the legal ownership and permitting of NFA weapons?

[oaklander]

OK - we just lowered the price back down to $600. We do not make as much money on this - but it will make us happy to see more NFA weapons in California!

My personal opinion is that law abiding citizens should be able to own whatever firearms they want.

Although California requires its own permit for MOST NFA weapons - AOWs are easy to get, and do not require a California permit. While I would prefer to see more FA weapons in the state (obviously, only in the hands of law abiding citizens like us), I will still be happy if I can see more AOWs in the state.

I realize that even some "pro 2A" people have issues with NFA weapons, for some strange reason, but that's their problem!!!



EDIT: there is a way to legally purchase NFA FA weapons that will be stored out of state. Details to come.

[Adehtla]

Originally Posted by oaklander

EDIT: there is a way to legally purchase NFA FA weapons that will be stored out of state. Details to come.

This is what I was interested in. My sister lives in Las Vegas and I was trying to figure out if I could buy something and leave it there in a safety deposit box or a safe in her house. When the details come, let me know.

[gun_freek]

EDIT: there is a way to legally purchase NFA FA weapons that will be stored out of state. Details to come.

Waiting for the details......

[F8ality]

Definately interested in this and ready to roll if there is a 'LEGAL' way to do it. I'd love to sbr some lowers and silencers to be held in a safety deposit box in NV!!

[oaklander]

Yes, still working on it. Networking with some other lawyers on this. There are two possible ways to do it. One easy and one hard. But right now - it looks like the "hard one" might be the "easiest."

I know that doesn't make sense. California gun law doesn't make sense!!!!

[gun_freek]

I have a sig 556p that I would love to add a stock to.

[armygunsmith]

FA in another state? Color me interested.

[Interfan]

Originally Posted by Adehtla

This is what I was interested in. My sister lives in Las Vegas and I was trying to figure out if I could buy something and leave it there in a safety deposit box or a safe in her house. When the details come, let me know.

Unless you have the large budget and organizational skill required to form and maintain a corporation in Nevada and buy your NFA items through it, the easiest way to do it is to establish Nevada residency for the period required to do so at your sister's house. Get a Nevada DL, set up a Nevada bank account, get mail at your sister's house, get Nevada cellphone service so you have a telephone number for your NFA form, etc. to prove that you reside there. File your NFA paperwork, pay your tax out of a Nevada bank account or with a USPS MO from a Nevada post office, and you are done. You must then transport or store any weapons acquired in accordance with NFA standards.

That is the easy way, trying to find some "legal loophole" way to be a resident of CA and own NFA items in Nevada is not worth the time and effort. As there really isn't an easy way around both Federal and CA law as the ATF won't approve your application if it violates the laws of the state you legally reside in.

After you establish residency, there is no law preventing you from commuting out of state to work and stay, or to own property, etc. in other states. There are tons of people that do that now. As oppresive as CA law is, we still have freedom of movement. For now...