NFA Trusts (EDIT: Fee Added)

[oaklander]

I have been approached by quite a few people interested in NFA Trusts. I am currently researching the issue and expect to be able to draw these up very soon.

Just wanted to put this out there so that people didn't think I had forgotten about them.



EDIT: thread updated - see this post http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...3&postcount=97

[6172crew]

Do you need a LE sign off for a trust? As a class 3 holder I think you do but not 100%.

Plus I know the ATF wont give you a stamp if its not allowed in your state.

Just some things you prolly already know.

[ke6guj]

Thats one of the main points of a trust, no LE sign off. No fingerprints or photos either.

ATF has given CA trusts tax stamps for CA-legal NFA items.

[NorCal MedTac]

Originally Posted by oaklander

I have been approached by quite a few people interested in NFA Trusts. I am currently researching the issue and expect to be able to draw these up very soon.

Just wanted to put this out there so that people didn't think I had forgotten about them.

Thanks for your effort!

[DesertGunner]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

Thats one of the main points of a trust, no LE sign off. No fingerprints or photos either.

ATF has given CA trusts tax stamps for CA-legal NFA items.

Enlighten me: what NFA items would be CA-legal?

[Diabolus]

I think you can make a short bbl shotgun.

[thedrickel]

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by DesertGunner

Enlighten me: what NFA items would be CA-legal?

There is a thread about this if you search.

Basically AOWs, and C&R SBSs/SBRs are CA legal NFA items.

Sound suppressors, MGs, and non-C&R SBSs/SBRs are not.

[ptoguy2002]

Ooh.
What is the approx cost, normal NFA trust set up, standard, no outside issues, etc to set up a trust for NFA guns?
Thanks

[mauritz45]

good to know, thanks for tackling this.-cam

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by DesertGunner

Enlighten me: what NFA items would be CA-legal?

Technically, just about everything is CA legal if you have CLEO sign-off and a CADOJ permit.

Practically, only C&R SBS/SBR, DDs under .60", and AOWs (except pen-guns). They also need to comply with the AW regs.

I'd take any more specific NFA firearms questions to the AOW/SBS/SBR thread, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=82693 so we don't further hi-jack oaklander's NFA trust thread.

[thedrickel]

Did somebody say "AOW"???

[ke6guj]

As is, that AK pistol is not an AOW. Planning on putting the forward grip back on? There is another calgunner planning on the same thing, getting an AOW form 1 so he can put the forward grip back on.

[thedrickel]

Yep, I'd like to put the front grip back on. Still have to keep the BB, but oh well. I'll live I guess

[LOW2000]

Mmm, serbu super shorty sounds mighty appealing. Would be nice to have a 12ga in the dresser drawer

ETA: Oh my, I just got giddy at the thought of OCing a serbu super shorty since is not classified as a shotgun and i think there may be no prohibition on the OC of an AOW.

[hoffmang]

Hey Oak - how much you charging per?

-Gene

[Richy]

Hello, also wondering how much would you be charging for your service? I know there are programs that you can buy that will draft a quick Trust for you.

[oaklander]

Not sure yet. I will know in a couple of days. . .

Originally Posted by hoffmang

Hey Oak - how much you charging per?

-Gene

[oaklander]

Originally Posted by Richy

Hello, also wondering how much would you be charging for your service? I know there are programs that you can buy that will draft a quick Trust for you.

There are some people doing it that way. I would not advise it. Based on my preliminary research, there appear to be some issues specific to NFA Trusts that the off-the-shelf programs do not accommodate. Without going into specifics, you do not want a situation where the operation of a trust could later create an illegality.

I will have more details in a couple of days.

[blackberg]

Originally Posted by oaklander

Not sure yet. I will know in a couple of days. . .

Looking forward for the info.


How about someone coming up with a list of ideas of what to buy. Kind of like a shopping cart...err..wishlist of what to get

-bb

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by blackberg

How about someone coming up with a list of ideas of what to buy. Kind of like a shopping cart...err..wishlist of what to get

-bb

Basically any AOW that is not a pen-gun and does not run afoul of the pistol AW regs. AR-pistol AOWs should be ok, but they still need to be fixed-mag.

And C&R SBS/SBRs are ok as well.

And I gues if you really wanted a big boomer, you could make something in 14.5mm Russian or find one of these, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTRD .

[M. Sage]

Originally Posted by thedrickel

Yep, I'd like to put the front grip back on. Still have to keep the BB, but oh well. I'll live I guess

I thought that AOW was exempt from CA's dumb bans?

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by M. Sage

I thought that AOW was exempt from CA's dumb bans?

Remember, a federally registered AOW is exempt from only 12020 prohibitions. All other sections of the PC may still apply.

The pistol AW regs may apply per

12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."

(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.

(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.

[M. Sage]

Ah, that's it. I forgot. Thanks for reminding me.

[Telperion]

I would be interested, but I would like to know specifics about the "value added" over Quicken Willmaker trusts, which have shown to be perfectly adequate as NFA ownership vehicles in other states.

I understand some lawyers who have advertised specialized NFA trusts have highlighted the issues regarding transfer after the grantor's death. It seems to me that leaving a detailed letter of instruction to the successor trustee along with a partly completed form 5 would take care of these issues. Am I mistaken, and are there other concerns?

[adamsreeftank]

PM Sent.

[oaklander]

The main idea is to make sure that the trust, by its operation, never creates an illegal situation. This has to remain true now, 20 years from now, 40 years from now, etc. . .

If you, or anyone else for that matter, wishes to use commercially available software to generate a revocable living "NFA trust" - by all means, give it a shot - and let me know how it works. . .



BUT, please, please, please make sure that you have a lawyer who is familiar with NFA issues review the completed document before you submit it to the ATF.

There is simply too much at risk to attempt to save a few bucks on something like this.

Originally Posted by Telperion

I would be interested, but I would like to know specifics about the "value added" over Quicken Willmaker trusts, which have shown to be perfectly adequate as NFA ownership vehicles in other states.

I understand some lawyers who have advertised specialized NFA trusts have highlighted the issues regarding transfer after the grantor's death. It seems to me that leaving a detailed letter of instruction to the successor trustee along with a partly completed form 5 would take care of these issues. Am I mistaken, and are there other concerns?

[Telperion]

I've read into the use of NFA trusts since they became widely known. It seems the common places where the legality of ownership comes into question are:

- someone other than trustee in possession
- trustee unable to serve, or legally disabled from possession
- beneficiary legally disabled from possession
- situations arising from a trust merger

Again, I've seen a lot of innuendo from lawyers, but I'd like to hear specifics of why Willmaker trusts are deficient.

[oaklander]

It is not proper for me to answer specific legal questions here. Nor do I wish to debate the relative costs vs. benefits of using a real lawyer versus using a "lawyer-in-a-box."

The purpose of this thread was simply to give a "status update" to the people who have contacted me in the past about NFA trusts. I'd like to stay on topic.

You sound like you have done a lot of research on NFA trusts. That's a good thing. I would still strongly recommend that you have an experienced attorney look over the resulting document that you create.

Originally Posted by Telperion

I've read into the use of NFA trusts since they became widely known. It seems the common places where the legality of ownership comes into question are:

- someone other than trustee in possession
- trustee unable to serve, or legally disabled from possession
- beneficiary legally disabled from possession
- situations arising from a trust merger

Again, I've seen a lot of innuendo from lawyers, but I'd like to hear specifics of why Willmaker trusts are deficient.

[oaklander]

OK - the waiting is over - the fee is $600.



Anyone who is interested is welcome to PM me - I can start immediately!

Originally Posted by hoffmang

Hey Oak - how much you charging per?

-Gene

[ptoguy2002]

Do income tax returns need to be filed on trusts, even if there is no money made?

[asymmetricalwarfar3]

Originally Posted by ptoguy2002

Do income tax returns need to be filed on trusts, even if there is no money made?

Not necessary....

[ldivinag]

[crying mode]

but i want a supressor...

[/crying mode]

[Stormfeather]

ok, here goes the bank account again. . . .
first it was OLL's. . . .
then it was ammo. . .
now its NFA. . . . . .

my kids didnt need a college education anyways. . . .

[Stormfeather]

PM in bound Kev

[artherd]

Guys, if you want to own an NFA weapon in CA this is the way to do it. Kevin knows what he's doing, and will see that you don't get into trouble.

This is actually pretty complex, and things like Quicken Will Maker and the like can quite easily create accidental felons out of you and your loved ones. (infact, they will...) they are not built with the NFA in mind and do not take into account state law either.

Kevin's done the DD.

[ptoguy2002]

After setting up the trust, will you reveiw the NFA paperwork, form 1, form 4, whatever it is?
Or is this even needed?

[asymmetricalwarfar3]

Is that what the fees are for O? A review/look-over to make sure everything is kosher?

[m24armorer]

Tomorrow I will give you guys a link to NFA trusts, it's on a favorite silencer forum. And it works.

[383green]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Basically AOWs, and C&R SBSs/SBRs are CA legal NFA items.

Sound suppressors, MGs, and non-C&R SBSs/SBRs are not.

Hmm, so does this mean that with:

1) $600 NFA trust
2) $250 NFA tax stamp
3) $50 80 year old rusty POS shotgun with a ringed barrel

it would then be legal to cut on the dotted lines?



Assuming this would be legal, would the resulting very short 80 year old POS shotgun then be considered "transferrable" under NFA rules?

And would the POS be worth the $900 invested until/unless NFA gets overturned, thus immensely de-valuing it along with all of those $10k Sten tube guns?

Please forgive me if these are dumb questions. I haven't seen much reason to seriously look into NFA weapons before.