What is "loaded" in California?

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by ro442173

This made me change my mind on opencarry. I used to think that loaded mags (uniserted) were deemed "loaded"... that's what I was told anyways.

But since it sounds like I can open carry with uniserted loaded mags, then hey I can dig it.

Please be careful about this.

The reason so many are told these fairy tales is that is how many LEO have been (mis-)trained. (Or, to be charitable, not re-trained since Clark in 1996.)

You can easily be correct, and still be arrested, even prosecuted.

Lib.

Can you help me out here.

I was in conversation with a friend about what is considered loaded, and I quoted the Clark case law as I learned it form this thread. However when I do a Google search for CA PC 12031 i see section (g) as:

"(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder."

Is this failure of websites to update the PC?
This could be responsible for a lot of misunderstandings!

[Librarian]

No. That is the PC as it exists today, and as it was in 1996. The general way laws are interpreted is first the PC, and then case law, where the PC is enhanced, extended or explained by judicial application of the PC.

In this case, generally Clark has redefined 'loaded' from what the 'black letter' of 12031(g) says to the quoted version from the judge.

We have a similar situation regarding 'assault weapons'; the law at 12276 talks about 'AR-series' weapons, while the Harrot v County of Kings decision voids that language and replaces it.

The PC is not then amended to match the judicial ruling; that would take an explicit change by the Legislature, which they have not made.

If you look at hard-copy publications of PC, for example "West's", available in the reference section of some public libraries, there will be supplements to the text of the laws in 'pockets' inside the back covers of the volumes. Often these refer the reader to case law which modifies the meaning of some of the laws in application.

So does LEO receive a updated PC book with the Clark case law enhancement as a foot note? How does LEO make an on the spot decision when it comes to case law enhancement?

[scr83jp]

Originally Posted by Steve O

So does LEO receive a updated PC book with the Clark case law enhancement as a foot note? How does LEO make an on the spot decision when it comes to case law enhancement?

Every year we had required training on the new laws and pertinent decisions that applied to LE : new sections in the penal ,health & safety ,welfare & institutions ,california vehicle ,etc., codes we needed to be aware of to perform our jobs.The know nothing know it all criminals who interpreted everything to their advantage got some real shocks every year with the new codified laws and decisions.Many would come in for an interview telling me we didn't have a case ,that it should be dismissed until I read the new code and decisions to the perps.Many learned their bod was grass and the judge was the lawnmower.

[Librarian]

The training officers receive can be spotty. See the linked documents at http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...ning_Materials

Had officers regularly been trained in the results of Clark since 1996, these extra training documents would be merely reminders; instead, they read as revelations.

[Afterburnt]

0.08

[huganly]

I really love the painterly feel your digital coloring has. Also, I love all of the design work you've had on this thread. Keep on going!

[ALSystems]

What are the rules for legally transporting guns in a SUV or pickup truck which does not have a separate truck to lock things in?

(1) For example, you have guns in a closed cloth case (zipper closed but unlocked) and the ammo is stored separately in closed metal box (unlocked) in the back area.

(2) Same as #1 but the guns are on the front passenger seat or in the front foot rest area

(3) Same as #1 but the ammo is an open case.

(4) Same as #1 but stored under the seat.

In these examples, are the guns somehow considered "Loaded" ?

From reading this thread, it seems there are no consistent rules or rather the existing rules seem to get constantly redefined. It seems like the answer depends more on the interpretation or misinterpretation by LEO, judges, congressmen or lawyers.

Assume the guns no trigger locks and have no bullets in the chamber, tube or inserted magazines. Also assume you are not near a school or government office.

First Post

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by ALSystems

What are the rules for legally transporting guns in a SUV or pickup truck which does not have a separate truck to lock things in?

(1) For example, you have guns in a closed cloth case (zipper closed but unlocked) and the ammo is stored separately in closed metal box (unlocked) in the back area.

(2) Same as #1 but the guns are on the front passenger seat or in the front foot rest area

(3) Same as #1 but the ammo is an open case.

(4) Same as #1 but stored under the seat.

In these examples, are the guns somehow considered "Loaded" ?

From reading this thread, it seems there are no consistent rules or rather the existing rules seem to get constantly redefined. It seems like the answer depends more on the interpretation or misinterpretation by LEO, judges, congressmen or lawyers.

Assume the guns no trigger locks and have no bullets in the chamber, tube or inserted magazines. Also assume you are not near a school or government office.

First Post

Wrong thread - this is about loaded, not transport, but anyway ...

How do I legally transport a HANDGUN?

How do I legally transport a LONG GUN?

How do I legally transport AMMUNITION?

Short answer: handguns in a completely enclosed locked case; such case can be wherever is convenient. Long guns wherever you like.

[jdicesare]

The court therefore appears to be suggesting that there could be an "unconventional method" of loading a gun. I would suggest that this makes sense when a firearm that commonly requires a magazine; yet being loaded with a single round via an open chamber (without a magazine inserted in the receiver). This goes to clarify that a "loaded" firearm will include a round chambered or not as long as it is "ready to be fired" i.e. loaded magazine "inserted in the receiver" (or better said, "where a round is ready to be chambered"), and or a single round "in the chamber".

More simply put, loaded is in reference to a "bullet", not magazine. An empty chamber with a magazine inserted without any bullets is not loaded. It's only when the magazine has a bullet that it is considered "attached", and only then when it is inserted into the receiver.

This also supports why the court deemed anything other than the above as NOT loaded. So the "attached" appears to be in reference to "a magazine inserted into the receiver". See below...

"loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm"

[Soldier415]

Link to the what is loaded pamphlet no longer works. Anyone have a link that does?

[3B830]

btt

[Decoligny]

Originally Posted by Soldier415

Link to the what is loaded pamphlet no longer works. Anyone have a link that does?

Attached is the file that was linked. OCDO moved to a different forum, so most of the links are now invalid.

[GuyW]

What is loaded in CA?

...usually the legislature...
.

[Soldier415]

Originally Posted by Decoligny

Attached is the file that was linked. OCDO moved to a different forum, so most of the links are now invalid.

Thanks!