What is "loaded" in California?

[Liberty1]

D,

You might consider cc ing your correspondence to TMLLP and the Calguns Foundation for their information.

[Decoligny]

Originally Posted by Liberty1

D,

You might consider cc ing your correspondence to TMLLP and the Calguns Foundation for their information.

Most definitely. I will send a copy of the letter with a complete list of the names, addresses, and dates sent, of the letters I send out. I will also scan any responses and provide them to whoever needs them.

[Rob454]

it seems that if a 44 magnum and a 357 bullet are within 100 yards of each other the gun is considered loaded by some ninnies.
Too many people have their own idea of what loaded is.

[Decoligny]

Originally Posted by Rob454

it seems that if a 44 magnum and a 357 bullet are within 100 yards of each other the gun is considered loaded by some ninnies.
Too many people have their own idea of what loaded is.

The unfortunate part of that is that too many of those people who have their own idea of what loaded is, are police officers and district attorneys.

[swhatb]

Originally Posted by Librarian

I think it's shameful that DOJ will not issue an advisory opinion to the DAs providing consistent guidance on state law. Claiming that state law must be interpreted separately in each county is contrary to the concept of having a state.

That ought to be entertaining....

[Liberty1]

Sacramento PD loaded firearm in public and open carry memo (12031 (g) & 12025 (f) PC)

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...light=sac+memo



San Diego Open Carry lunch with pictures

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...01#post1373801

[San Fran John]

Thanks

[chris]

great thread librarian. i second that this thread be stickied for further reference.

[Electric Factory]

I too am late to this thread but it is indeed excellent- concisely presented , easy to understand and a valuable resource to all the membership.
Nice work, really.
And thank you.

[titus7]

So I know this is a stupid question that has probably been answered a million times, but is there any laws against carrying an unloaded firearm in your vehicle with the magazine in the firearm? Obviously locked up.

[MudCamper]

Originally Posted by titus7

So I know this is a stupid question that has probably been answered a million times, but is there any laws against carrying an unloaded firearm in your vehicle with the magazine in the firearm? Obviously locked up.

If you mean an unloaded magazine, then no, there is no law that forbids having unloaded magazines in your firearms. If the magazine is loaded, and in the firearm, then the firearm meets the definition of loaded, and violates 12031.

[gcrtkd]

Here's something I've been wondering... if you asked a patrol officer to go on duty with a loaded mag in his gun but an empty chamber, would anyone in their right mind (police sgt., judge, lawyer, lawmaker, DOJ) consider that gun "loaded"? Of course not. Is the definition of loaded then different depending on whether you're a LEO or a civilian? It doesn't seem to me that the law makes a distinction.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by gcrtkd

Here's something I've been wondering... if you asked a patrol officer to go on duty with a loaded mag in his gun but an empty chamber, would anyone in their right mind (police sgt., judge, lawyer, lawmaker, DOJ) consider that gun "loaded"? Of course not. Is the definition of loaded then different depending on whether you're a LEO or a civilian? It doesn't seem to me that the law makes a distinction.

The law doesn't care whether sworn LEOs have loaded weapons; bringing them up isn't especially useful.

But yes, if it came to an inquiry with legal implications, what you describe is certainly "loaded", for anyone, in California (except F&G while hunting).

[gcrtkd]

I understand and agree that the law does not care whether sworn LEOs have loaded weapons. What I'm getting at is a way to pin down the actual legal definition of loaded in a court of law. If a civilian is arrested for a loaded weapon violation with a loaded mag in the chamber but WITHOUT one in the pipe then they have the legal right to question the arresting officer in court, no? So, they ask the officer on the stand to remove the mag from their service weapon, eject the round in the chamber, then replace the mag without piping another round, AND then go on patrol like that... then turn the judge/jury and ask him/them if that weapon is loaded. It either is or it isn't. So, which is it? Is it loaded in the hands of a civilian but not in the hands of a LEO? (I know this was poorly-written, but I think you catch my drift. I also know that the law and common sense are often at odds, but this might be a way to force the issue by requiring a clear ruling.)

[Liberty1]

Originally Posted by gcrtkd

I understand and agree that the law does not care whether sworn LEOs have loaded weapons. What I'm getting at is a way to pin down the actual legal definition of loaded in a court of law. If a civilian is arrested for a loaded weapon violation with a loaded mag in the chamber but WITHOUT one in the pipe then they have the legal right to question the arresting officer in court, no? So, they ask the officer on the stand to remove the mag from their service weapon, eject the round in the chamber, then replace the mag without piping another round, AND then go on patrol like that... then turn the judge/jury and ask him/them if that weapon is loaded. It either is or it isn't. So, which is it? Is it loaded in the hands of a civilian but not in the hands of a LEO? (I know this was poorly-written, but I think you catch my drift. I also know that the law and common sense are often at odds, but this might be a way to force the issue by requiring a clear ruling.)

It 's a nice thought but for the purposes of a 12031a violation they've given us the definition of loaded in subsection "g" and explained in People vs Clark. It doesn't matter what a dictionary definition might be when the law's definition is that explicit.

[gcrtkd]

Roger that... that's what I get for thinking. It would make for an interesting courtroom exchange though, wouldn't it? "Would you go on patrol without a round in your chamber, officer? Of course not... because then your firearm wouldn't be loaded, would it?"

[Liberty1]

Originally Posted by gcrtkd

Roger that... that's what I get for thinking.

Don't ever stop thinking about the law and how it does or doesn't apply. It is the combined efforts of these forums which dissected the AW "ban" and neutered it with OLLs, BBs, and Monsterman/u-15 attachments.

Same for the "safe" roster, bring it in as a single shot then convert it!

Its the combined efforts of these forums which came up with the OC brochures to make understanding otherwise very complicated codes understandable so that some individuals have actually started OCing in everyday life.

Keep your thoughts coming! Victory is ours!

[diginit]

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm;

This means that the mag cannot be in the magwell, But next to the firearm is legal. Correct? including, but not limited to?... What else is there? Sounds like another gray area.

[ElvenSoul]

well as far as our law makers are concerened even dreaming of a gun is a crime...how did these guys get in office again tell me????????????

[GuyW]

Originally Posted by ElvenSoul

well as far as our law makers are concerened even dreaming of a gun is a crime...how did these guys get in office again tell me????????????

The Obama-ites voted them in...

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by diginit

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm;

This means that the mag cannot be in the magwell, But next to the firearm is legal. Correct? including, but not limited to?... What else is there? Sounds like another gray area.

Read the quote from People vs Clark in the first post.

[Liberty1]

BTT

[kcmiller]

[QUOTE=ElvenSoul;1654078]even dreaming of a gun is a crime...QUOTE]

Guilty...

[Jeffu]

thanks for much for this info!

how about a round hidden in the insert of a glock 19...

[Librarian]

Seriously? You wouldn't do that deliberately - what would be the point?

That looks like a reason to buy one of the plugs, or to avoid carrying loose rounds with the pistol. Technically, since it would not be in a place where it could be fired, that would not be loaded.

[Jeffu]

Originally Posted by Librarian

Seriously? You wouldn't do that deliberately - what would be the point?

That looks like a reason to buy one of the plugs, or to avoid carrying loose rounds with the pistol. Technically, since it would not be in a place where it could be fired, that would not be loaded.

i don't like having ammos at home since i only use the guns for shooting range purposes, but i have 1 round hidden in the plug just in case...that was 1.5 month ago when i first purchased the gun. forgot about it and took the gun to the range 2 days ago, busted on the way home...

was charged with possession of loaded weapon in vehicle, waiting for the letter from right now...

[MP5]

Originally Posted by Jeffu

i don't like having ammos at home since i only use the guns for shooting range purposes, but i have 1 round hidden in the plug just in case...that was 1.5 month ago when i first purchased the gun. forgot about it and took the gun to the range 2 days ago, busted on the way home...

was charged with possession of loaded weapon in vehicle, waiting for the letter from right now...

ouch!

Originally Posted by Jeffu

i don't like having ammos at home since i only use the guns for shooting range purposes, but i have 1 round hidden in the plug just in case...that was 1.5 month ago when i first purchased the gun. forgot about it and took the gun to the range 2 days ago, busted on the way home...

was charged with possession of loaded weapon in vehicle, waiting for the letter from right now...

1) I suggest keeping some ammo at home incase the need arises.

2) You are good to go. The bullet was not in a position where it was ready to fire. I suggest legal help to get the charge dropped and the gun returned.

3) Surprised they did not charge you with a concealed weapon too.

[TitanCi]

I have a sig p226- if i keep the pistol and loaded magazines in the same blue sig case, but LOCKED with padlocks in the back of my trunk...is this legal? the magazines are NOT loaded into the pistol at all. they just sit next to it. TIA.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by TitanCi

I have a sig p226- if i keep the pistol and loaded magazines in the same blue sig case, but LOCKED with padlocks in the back of my trunk...is this legal? the magazines are NOT loaded into the pistol at all. they just sit next to it. TIA.

Since that condition does not place the ammunition in a position where it can be fired, it is a legal way to transport your handgun.

So, what part of the preceding thread lead you to believe things might be otherwise? Post number 1 says

Yes, you may transport loaded magazines and speed loaders, so long as they are not inserted into the magazine well or cylinder of the firearm. That does not make a gun loaded, because the ammunition carried that way is NOT “placed into a position from which it can be fired”.

[Vbravo]

When transporting an OLL rifle with an installed bullet button, between your home and the range an back, should the non-detachable magazine be installed in your rifle. Would this prove the case of the non-detachable magazine, or place you in violation of some other law.

[aplinker]

Originally Posted by Vbravo

When transporting an OLL rifle with an installed bullet button, between your home and the range an back, should the non-detachable magazine be installed in your rifle. Would this prove the case of the non-detachable magazine, or place you in violation of some other law.

An empty magazine is completely legal and prudent to have in a BB-equipped rifle, at all times.

Internal/external fixed magazines are common in other firearms (SKS, for example).

The reason to transport with a mag affixed is it's much easier to describe the rifle as having a non-detachable magazine if there's a magazine attached. Just saves that step of explanation.

[TitanCi]

Originally Posted by Librarian

Since that condition does not place the ammunition in a position where it can be fired, it is a legal way to transport your handgun.

So, what part of the preceding thread lead you to believe things might be otherwise? Post number 1 says

just gettin' a second opinion

[YZINGERR]

Most LEOs will tell you different things. I had two friends over for beers (one a sheriff and one a local LEO), and they both said slightly different things about transporting.
One said that the firearms dont have to be in a locked container as long as they arent loaded (as a loaded firearm is illegal in any case).
I have been told that you must keep mags sep regardless if they are loaded or not, but most LEOs say it doesnt matter..

I had a similar conversation with a LEO a few weeks back. He firmly believed gun + loaded magazine in the same container = loaded gun. The bottom line is, given the complexity of California gun laws we cannot expect LEOs to get it straight. The first defense is making sure the camel does not get it nose into the tent but not giving cause for getting searched. If they do, it will all get cleaned up in the end but you're be spending some $$ on a lawyer and have to DROS your guns again:-)

[cmme17]

What about open carrying or *fill in the blank* a revolver loaded with blanks? 12031(6)(g) defines loaded as having "an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder AND a bullet or shot..."

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by cmme17

What about open carrying or *fill in the blank* a revolver loaded with blanks? 12031(6)(g) defines loaded as having "an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder AND a bullet or shot..."

And what would be the point of that? 'Stop, or I shall make loud noises!'

But according to the definition, not loaded.

[qtrxist]

Originally Posted by Jeffu

i don't like having ammos at home since i only use the guns for shooting range purposes, but i have 1 round hidden in the plug just in case...that was 1.5 month ago when i first purchased the gun. forgot about it and took the gun to the range 2 days ago, busted on the way home...

was charged with possession of loaded weapon in vehicle, waiting for the letter from right now...

so you go to range from home, then back and you get pulled over? it couldnt be for your firearm right? unless its not on your trunk locked and on open view. enlighten me, im curious.

[scr83jp]

Originally Posted by Dont Tread on Me

I had a similar conversation with a LEO a few weeks back. He firmly believed gun + loaded magazine in the same container = loaded gun. The bottom line is, given the complexity of California gun laws we cannot expect LEOs to get it straight. The first defense is making sure the camel does not get it nose into the tent but not giving cause for getting searched. If they do, it will all get cleaned up in the end but you're be spending some $$ on a lawyer and have to DROS your guns again:-)

The former atty general had problems identifying the assault type rifles declaring some illegal that weren'tl.I had a class by an LA LEO trainer who ided jhp ammo as illegal which wasn't, I told him my carry weapons all had jhp ammo he told me he wouldn't arrest me because I was a peace officer.

[ro442173]

This made me change my mind on opencarry. I used to think that loaded mags (uniserted) were deemed "loaded"... that's what I was told anyways.

But since it sounds like I can open carry with uniserted loaded mags, then hey I can dig it.