ATTN FFLs: Rostering doesn't apply to intrafamily xfers from outside CA

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by philobeddoe

I haven't read every post, so forgive me if this has been covered,

it would have been nice if you had at least read the first post of this thread, where it explains that you can't do an intrafamily interstate transfer without using a CA FFL.

but over the years I have done numerous intrafamily transfers, legally, with off roster handguns, between out of state family members

there is no requirement for background check or roster compliance, nor FFL transfer

if you didn't use a CA FFL to facilitate the transfer, federal law was violated in the process, so it wasn't done legallly.

registering the handgun with CA DOJ is completely elective

how do you figure. CA says that intrafamily handgun transfers have to be reported to CADOJ.

the only issue is that the transfer must be done FTF,
either by the family member coming to CA with the handgun,
or you traveling to the family member to pick up the handgun,
and then transporting it legally back to CA ... for example via car or airline

but you may not ship the gun into the state

.

both options you mention violate federal law. In both cases, the out-of-state person violates federal law by transfering a firearm to a person of a different state, without using an FFL.

In the second case, if you bring a firearm you acquire out-of-state back to your home state, you also have violated federal law.

[JeepFreak]

Originally Posted by LexLuther

Please correct / advise me on this idea.

Colorado sister could gift a new non-list handgun to California Father. Once it is here, California father could gift the item to California son?

Should there be a period of time between each transfer, or could it just be as simple as Dad gets the gun in Cali, decides he doesnt like / want it and gifts it to son?

Thanks in advance for the comments, I really appreciate the contributions from the CG members / founders who have posted to this thread. Artherd, Librarian, or any other CG board member...If you are ever up in the Redding area, the drinks are on me.

Thanks Lex

I'm still looking for an answer to this question. If somebody knows, please share. If I find the answer elsewhere, I'll be sure to post it here as well. This thread has really helped me and I think this would make it a bit more complete.

Thanks,
Billy

[luckystrike]

Originally Posted by B.J.F.

luckystrike, you also cannot do a PPT of an off roster handgun if the person you are getting the handgun from is not present in the store at the time of the registration. PPT is only for the currently registered owner to transfer to a new owner

It never said that, from what I got from it, it can be shipped to me ffl

[jtmkinsd]

Originally Posted by JeepFreak

I'm still looking for an answer to this question. If somebody knows, please share. If I find the answer elsewhere, I'll be sure to post it here as well. This thread has really helped me and I think this would make it a bit more complete.

Thanks,
Billy

If the sister is shipping the firearm to a CA FFL, the father would do a 4473 and DROS, wait ten days, and pick up the firearm. There is no specific time limit on when the father can then gift the firearm to his son. Theoretically, he could bring the firearm home, give it to his son, and the son would then have to fill out the Operation of Law / Intrafamilial Handgun Transfer form and mail it to DOJ with the $19 fee.

[JeepFreak]

Originally Posted by luckystrike

It never said that, from what I got from it, it can be shipped to me ffl

It can be shipped... you just have to find a CA FFL to receive it. Many of the ones I called want the sendor to be there in person.
Billy

[JeepFreak]

Originally Posted by jtmkinsd

If the sister is shipping the firearm to a CA FFL, the father would do a 4473 and DROS, wait ten days, and pick up the firearm. There is no specific time limit on when the father can then gift the firearm to his son. Theoretically, he could bring the firearm home, give it to his son, and the son would then have to fill out the Operation of Law / Intrafamilial Handgun Transfer form and mail it to DOJ with the $19 fee.

Thanks jtmkinsd!
Billy

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by jtmkinsd

If the sister is shipping the firearm to a CA FFL, the father would do a 4473 and DROS, wait ten days, and pick up the firearm. There is no specific time limit on when the father can then gift the firearm to his son. Theoretically, he could bring the firearm home, give it to his son, and the son would then have to fill out the Operation of Law / Intrafamilial Handgun Transfer form and mail it to DOJ with the $19 fee.

No. Not quite so fast.

You can't structure such a transfer thru multisteps. There's PC out there I don't recall, I saw it the other week.

While there's no time specified, and dad can decide he doesn't like the gun, such "flipping" would be easily determined from the DROS data.

At best, Dad should spend some time really figuring if he likes the gun or not.

[jtmkinsd]

Originally Posted by bwiese

No. Not quite so fast.

You can't structure such a transfer thru multisteps. There's PC out there I don't recall, I saw it the other week.

While there's no time specified, and dad can decide he doesn't like the gun, such "flipping" would be easily determined from the DROS data.

At best, Dad should spend some time really figuring if he likes the gun or not.

A day at the range? I've determined I don't like a particular firearm after two shots. Really I wouldn't even need to fire a firearm to determine I don't like it...if I don't like how it feels in my hand, don't like the weight, a hundred reasons. And while it is illegal to intentionally avoid an FFL...evidence of such intent is extremely hard to prove...While I agree with the factual essence of your statement...practical application is another issue.

[skidkid22@hotmail.com]

So... I have been through this as well, my dad lives out of state and when I ask my FFL in Oceanside they say he has to bring the Springfield XDM to California to do the transfer in person. I am seeing alot of back and forth here, can someone please let me know of an FFL in San Diego that knows how to do this transfer without him flying it out to me?

[jtmkinsd]

Originally Posted by skidkid22@hotmail.com

So... I have been through this as well, my dad lives out of state and when I ask my FFL in Oceanside they say he has to bring the Springfield XDM to California to do the transfer in person. I am seeing alot of back and forth here, can someone please let me know of an FFL in San Diego that knows how to do this transfer without him flying it out to me?

Try Gussler's in Santee, CA

[koxx.dta]

do lowers work the same way? how about a pistol ar lower? just curious

[jtmkinsd]

Originally Posted by koxx.dta

do lowers work the same way? how about a pistol ar lower? just curious

Intrafamilial transfers are exempt from the roster, so yes, if dad had a pistol lower he wanted to transfer to his son, it's fine.

[philobeddoe]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

it would have been nice if you had at least read the first post of this thread, where it explains that you can't do an intrafamily interstate transfer without using a CA FFL.

if you didn't use a CA FFL to facilitate the transfer, federal law was violated in the process, so it wasn't done legallly.



how do you figure. CA says that intrafamily handgun transfers have to be reported to CADOJ.


both options you mention violate federal law. In both cases, the out-of-state person violates federal law by transfering a firearm to a person of a different state, without using an FFL.

In the second case, if you bring a firearm you acquire out-of-state back to your home state, you also have violated federal law.

Thanks for the response, but you're wrong.

I pursued and prosecuted my transfers in full compliance with Federal and State Law, and in direct consultation with BATF and CA DOJ.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by philobeddoe

Thanks for the response, but you're wrong.

I pursued and prosecuted my transfers in full compliance with Federal and State Law, and in direct consultation with BATF and CA DOJ.

what did BATF give you in writing that shows that 478.29 and 478.30 don't apply to you interstate intrafamily transfers?

§ 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.
top
No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or shotgun obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector in a State other than the transferee's State of residence in an over-the-counter transaction at the licensee's premises obtained in conformity with the provisions of §478.96(c) and

(c) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with the provisions of §§478.30 and 478.97.

[T.D. ATF–270, 53 FR 10493, Mar. 31, 1988]


§ 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.
top
No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and

(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[T.D. ATF–313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991; 57 FR 1205, Jan. 10, 1992]

there is no intrafamily exemption in the above federal regs.



and how did you comply with state law without reporting the transfers to CADOJ? did CADOJ tell you in writing that you don't have to report intrafamily handgun transfers to CADOJ?

12078(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent transfer of a handgun by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means by one individual to another if both individuals are members of the same immediate family and all of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person to whom the firearm is transferred shall, within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the Department of Justice.
(B) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a basic firearms safety certificate. If taking possession on or after January 1, 2003, the person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a handgun safety certificate.
(C) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older.
(3) As used in this subdivision, "immediate family member" means any one of the following relationships:
(A) Parent and child.
(B) Grandparent and grandchild.

[jtmkinsd]

Originally Posted by philobeddoe

Thanks for the response, but you're wrong.

I pursued and prosecuted my transfers in full compliance with Federal and State Law, and in direct consultation with BATF and CA DOJ.

I'm afraid you're misinformed, no matter who gave you the information. There is no Federal exemption for intrafamilial transfers. So driving or flying into CA and leaving a gun with anybody is a Federal Crime. CA offers a Safe Handgun Roster exemption for intrafamilial transfers, and if they are both CA residents, no FFL is needed. If the firearm comes in from out of State, both Federal, and CA State law requires it to go through an FFL. There are a number of threads on this site which point to the relevent statutes.

[vico512]

OK - gang. I've read so many strings (including the CGF Wiki) that, every time I think I've "got it", I read something else that adds to the confusion. So, here's the specifics:

I live in Washington State. My son (in his mid-20s) lives in the LA area, and belongs to a club in Burbank. I would like to buy him a Springfield XDm .45ACP. So, I purchase the gun here in Seattle, and also buy a couple of 10-round magazines for it. I find an FFL in the LA area that will accept it. I send it to the FFL with a clear statement that it's a gift, and who I am and who he is. He goes in and fills-out the paperwork, waits the 10 days, pays the fee and gets the handgun (He has his HSC.).

Do I have this correct, or am I missing something?

Thanks.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by vico512

OK - gang. I've read so many strings (including the CGF Wiki) that, every time I think I've "got it", I read something else that adds to the confusion. So, here's the specifics:

I live in Washington State.

My son (in his mid-20s) lives in the LA area, and belongs to a club in Burbank.

I would like to buy him a Springfield XDm .45ACP.

1. So, I purchase the gun here in Seattle, and
2. also buy a couple of 10-round magazines for it.
3. I find an FFL in the LA area that will accept it.
4. I send it to the FFL with a clear statement that it's a gift, and who I am and who he is.
5. [My son] has his HSC.
6. He goes in and fills-out the paperwork, waits the 10 days, pays the fee and gets the handgun .

Do I have this correct, or am I missing something?

Thanks.

That's exactly right - I reformatted your post so the steps are clear, but you have all of them.

[vico512]

OK - thanks much.

I joined this forum primarily to attempt to become familiar with all "stuff" he will have to put up with down there. This has been helpful. I intend to make donation to the CGF to help your cause.

Cheers from "up North".

[jtmkinsd]

Perfect...just make sure in the gift letter you include the firearm's make, model, and serial number. The FFL will probably require a legible copy of your state ID as well.

[philobeddoe]

Originally Posted by jtmkinsd

I'm afraid you're misinformed, no matter who gave you the information. There is no Federal exemption for intrafamilial transfers. So driving or flying into CA and leaving a gun with anybody is a Federal Crime. CA offers a Safe Handgun Roster exemption for intrafamilial transfers, and if they are both CA residents, no FFL is needed. If the firearm comes in from out of State, both Federal, and CA State law requires it to go through an FFL. There are a number of threads on this site which point to the relevent statutes.

Don't be afraid. You are correct and I owe you an apology. I apologize.

I reviewed my records, and you are correct. The particular transaction I referenced, involving the 1911's, was in fact an intrafamily transfer, but the transfer from my family member to me was intrastate and not interstate.

Again, my humble apologies.

[edlacy]

Anyone know of an FFL in the northern central valley who will do an Intrafamial transfer?

My FFL says it can't be done. Period, end of story....

I'm in Modesto and would really apperciate knowing of a dealer who could do the transfer for me.
It would be between me and my son who lives in Florida.
Thanks
Ed

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by edlacy

Anyone know of an FFL in the northern central valley who will do an Intrafamial transfer?

My FFL says it can't be done. Period, end of story....

I'm in Modesto and would really apperciate knowing of a dealer who could do the transfer for me. It would be between me and my son who lives in Florida.

Ed,

Time for a competent FFL.

If you can get over to Tracy, I am confident that Polish Mike's shop can help. Send a PM to PolishMike here... he's good guy and has a good IQ.

[PacMan]

Originally Posted by jtmkinsd

Try Gussler's in Santee, CA

Great thread, tried Gussler, no luck there ... he was of the opinion that an FFL wasn't needed. I really want to believe him, but am pretty concerned about violating federal law. Any other recommendations for an FFL in San Diego for intrafamilial interstate transfer of an off roster handgun? If Gussler thought it was necessary I would go to him, seemed like a nice guy.

[ke6guj]

ask him how you can do an interstate intrafamily transfer without involving and FFL and not violate these federal regulations?

§ 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or shotgun obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector in a State other than the transferee's State of residence in an over-the-counter transaction at the licensee's premises obtained in conformity with the provisions of §478.96(c) and

(c) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with the provisions of §§478.30 and 478.97.

[T.D. ATF–270, 53 FR 10493, Mar. 31, 1988]

§ 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and

(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[T.D. ATF–313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991; 57 FR 1205, Jan. 10, 1992]

alternatively, even thought he was of the opinion that an FFL wasn't needed, that doesn't mean that you couldn't use an FFL to be extra safe. Similiar to how some people won't do a paperless transfer of a 50+ year-old rifle, but want it done as a PPT through a dealer "for their protection". Just because it doesn't have to be done through a dealer doesn't mean that it can.t


I've had friends sell rifles while out of state and the buyer's FFL tried to say that they could just do a cash-and-carry FTF transfer, no FFL needed. My friend was smart enough to get that sale through the FFL's books, to protect himself. He explained to the FFL that the FFL could just log it in from him, and then do a 4473 to the buyer (with whatever NCIS stuff he needed to do as well) and my friend was willing to pay him his transfer fee to do that. the FFL agreed.

[jtmkinsd]

Originally Posted by PacMan

Great thread, tried Gussler, no luck there ... he was of the opinion that an FFL wasn't needed. I really want to believe him, but am pretty concerned about violating federal law. Any other recommendations for an FFL in San Diego for intrafamilial interstate transfer of an off roster handgun? If Gussler thought it was necessary I would go to him, seemed like a nice guy.

I know he's done these types of transfers in the past...so as suggested, I would ask him to receive the firearm and you'd like to do the paperwork on it.