Mossberg 590/590S

[No Spam]

Hey, all.
I'm stuck on a kick of this Mossberg 590S Shockwave, because: RAD!

Anyway, I'm finding that the "S" version is pretty pricy, and wondering if maybe I just get the older regular 590 and get an adapter from Defender Tactical and get the same ability to use 1.75" - 3" shells.

Same goes with the buttstock. If I could, I'd get the 14" barrel, but... California. So I'm looking at the 18.5" barrel, and really want the raptor grip. Is there a reason I couldn't just get 590 with a full size buttstock, and then swap it out for the raptor grip? I know there's issue with purchasing the 14" barrel and raptor grip combo, and then adding a full size buttstock, but since I have to get the 18" version, my understanding is that I could swap it out for whatever.

Anybody have any experience with this?


Thanks in advance.

[L-2]

https://shockwavetechnologies.com/pr...-mossberg-500/
Here's a potential source to buy a "Raptor" grip for a Mossberg 500 series shotgun. I also saw some for sale via Ebay.com. I've not heard of "Shockwave Technologies" prior to this search.

I see no legal problem installing this grip onto an existing Mossberg shotgun with its 18.5" or longer barrel. In the past, I have installed a regular pistol grip, replacing its stock. Mossberg still packages it regular pistol grip in combination with a regular stock on various models, for example:
https://www.mossberg.com/590-mariner-9-shot-50299.html

I just haven't seen Mossberg package these combos with a Raptor-grip. In fact, I didn't even see Mossberg listing the Raptor-grip being sold alone on Mossberg's website. Perhaps Mossberg will just defer to the Shockwave Tech company, but I don't know or understand whatever business relationship Mossberg might have with its Raptor-grip supplier.

The main thing for California is the shotshell-shooting firearm must have a barrel 18" or longer. There might be an overall length requirement, too, but I think that OAL is ~26" as I recall (somebody please check out Calif. law's specs) and the pistol grip with an 18.5" barrel supposedly is 28.75". A Raptor-grip should extend the OAL a bit longer even.

MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE.
I'll add, I don't particularly like a pistol grip-only shotgun, whether regular or Raptor styled, and prefer a regular stock. I'm ok with a pistol gripped stock but personally prefer a straight stock. However, I'm in Nevada and I can and do have a 14" SBS after I converted my Remington 870 Tac-14. It would have been cheaper to just order and buy an SBS made as such by Mossberg or (now) Remarms, but I didn't do that.

I also don't know or quite understand "AOW" rules/laws if that should be an option, especially in California.

[sigstroker]

Mossberg sells an 18" version with just a pistol grip. Shockwave sells just the Raptor by itself.

[Capybara]

As someone who has owned and shot a 12" barrel Remington 870 AOW for a good amount of years, trust me, don't waste your money. Just buy a regular 590S with a shoulder stock and the 18.5 or 20" barrel. PG shotguns are not totally useless but pretty close to useless.

[Quiet]

CA SBS laws are more strict than Federal SBS laws.

A firearm that can discharge shotgun shells and has a barrel length of less than 18" is considered a SBS under CA laws. [PC 17180(a)]

A firearm that can discharge shotgun shells and has an overall length of less than 26" is considered a SBS under CA laws. [PC 17180(b)]


The CA legal Mossberg 590S Shockwave has a 18.5" barrel length and a 30.75" overall length.
^ These are transferred as ATF 4473 "other" and CA DROS "long gun, other, pump-action".

The CA legal Mossberg 590S with shoulder stock are transferred as ATF 4473 "shotgun" and CA DROS "long gun, shotgun, pump-action".

Why how it is transferred matters...
... A firearm that is transferred as a Title 1 Other can be made into a BATFE approved Title 2 AOW and a firearm that is transferred as a Title 1 Shotgun can only be made into a BATFE approved Title 2 SBS.
... BATFE will not approve a Title 2 SBS for a CA resident that does not have a valid CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit for SBS.
... No CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit is required to legally make/own/possess a Title 2 AOW.
... Title 2 AOW can legally have a less than 18" barrel length.

Therefore...

The CA legal Mossberg 590S Shockwave can be legally acquired as a Title 1 Other (long gun, other, pump-action) and then the owner can submit a Form 1 ($200 tax stamp) to make it into a Title 2 AOW to BATFE and once BATFE approves it, the owner can legally replace the 18.5" barrel with the 14.375" barrel.

However, if a shoulder stock is ever installed on the Title 1 Other (long gun, other, pump-action), it can no longer be legally made into a Title 2 AOW and can only be made into a Title 2 SBS. This is because installing a shoulder stock onto the Title 1 Other (long gun, other, pump-action) will make it into a Title 1 Shotgun (long gun, shotgun, pump-action) and shortening the barrel on it will cause it to be a SBS (weapon made from a shotgun).

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by Quiet

CA SBS laws are more strict than Federal SBS laws.

A firearm that can discharge shotgun shells and has a barrel length of less than 18" is considered a SBS under CA laws. [PC 17180(a)]

A firearm that can discharge shotgun shells and has an overall length of less than 26" is considered a SBS under CA laws. [PC 17180(b)]


The CA legal Mossberg 590S Shockwave has a 18.5" barrel length and a 30.75" overall length.
^ These are transferred as ATF 4473 "other" and CA DROS "long gun, other, pump-action".

The CA legal Mossberg 590S with shoulder stock are transferred as ATF 4473 "shotgun" and CA DROS "long gun, shotgun, pump-action".

Why how it is transferred matters...
... A firearm that is transferred as a Title 1 Other can be made into a BATFE approved Title 2 AOW and a firearm that is transferred as a Title 1 Shotgun can only be made into a BATFE approved Title 2 SBS.
... BATFE will not approve a Title 2 SBS for a CA resident that does not have a valid CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit for SBS.
... No CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit is required to legally make/own/possess a Title 2 AOW.
... Title 2 AOW can legally have a less than 18" barrel length.

Therefore...

The CA legal Mossberg 590S Shockwave can be legally acquired as a Title 1 Other (long gun, other, pump-action) and then the owner can submit a Form 1 ($200 tax stamp) to make it into a Title 2 AOW to BATFE and once BATFE approves it, the owner can legally replace the 18.5" barrel with the 14.375" barrel.

However, if a shoulder stock is ever installed on the Title 1 Other (long gun, other, pump-action), it can no longer be legally made into a Title 2 AOW and can only be made into a Title 2 SBS. This is because installing a shoulder stock onto the Title 1 Other (long gun, other, pump-action) will make it into a Title 1 Shotgun (long gun, shotgun, pump-action) and shortening the barrel on it will cause it to be a SBS (weapon made from a shotgun).

The Shockwave model has the shorter barrel. The longer barrel model is just a 590.

Here's a question - supposing I go insane and move to kali. Can I bring a Shockwave with me and ppt it to someone as a pistol? Does it require rifling, because that can be arranged if need be.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by L-2

https://shockwavetechnologies.com/pr...-mossberg-500/
Here's a potential source to buy a "Raptor" grip for a Mossberg 500 series shotgun. I also saw some for sale via Ebay.com. I've not heard of "Shockwave Technologies" prior to this search.

Shockwave has been around for awhile. They make the Blade AR pistol brace, and were in that market almost from the start. They got an opinion letter from the ATF saying it was legal. I'm interested in seeing what happens in the first Blade court case. Congress can't pass a law and then change their minds about it a few years later. Why should ATF be able to do it?

Shockwave has also made magazines for weird guns for years. The M11/9 comes with plastic magazines that are less than robust, to put it kindly. Shockwave makes steel mags for it. Their rep is up and down on them, in part because the gun was not exactly precision made, and dimensions of the magwell, and other things, vary.

Originally Posted by Capybara

As someone who has owned and shot a 12" barrel Remington 870 AOW for a good amount of years, trust me, don't waste your money. Just buy a regular 590S with a shoulder stock and the 18.5 or 20" barrel. PG shotguns are not totally useless but pretty close to useless.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Someone has never heard of Demonstrated Concepts.

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by sigstroker

The Shockwave model has the shorter barrel. The longer barrel model is just a 590.

Mossberg 590S Shockwave (18.5" barrel) SKU 51600

Originally Posted by sigstroker

Here's a question - supposing I go insane and move to kali. Can I bring a Shockwave with me and ppt it to someone as a pistol? Does it require rifling, because that can be arranged if need be.

A firearm that can discharge shotgun shells and has a barrel length of less than 18" is a SBS. [PC 17180(a)]
It is illegal (felony) for a non-exempt person to import, advertise for sale, transfer, or possess a SBS in CA. [PC 33215]

Originally Posted by sigstroker

Shockwave has been around for awhile. They make the Blade AR pistol brace, and were in that market almost from the start. They got an opinion letter from the ATF saying it was legal. I'm interested in seeing what happens in the first Blade court case. Congress can't pass a law and then change their minds about it a few years later. Why should ATF be able to do it?

Effective 01-31-2023, all previous ATF brace letters were rescinded and no longer has any legal weight.
Starting 06-01-2023, possession of a firearm with an arm stabilizing brace that is not a BATFE approved Title 2 SBR is Federally illegal.

BATFE has never approved an arm stabilizing brace for use on a Title 1 Other "pistol grip only shotgun" and, effective 01-31-2023, any firearm that can discharge shotguns shells with an arm stabilizing brace installed is considered an illegal SBS. The window to acquire SBR status for firearms with arm stabilizing braces does not include the opportunity to legally acquire SBS, because those firearms were all automatically considered to be illegal SBS by BATFE and no amnesty period has been granted for those firearms.

[Capybara]

Originally Posted by sigstroker

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Someone has never heard of Demonstrated Concepts.

I've watched it, I just don't want to do it. I don't like the method. Not saying it doesn't work but it takes a lot of practice and discipline and I still don't think the results are going to be good for the average shotgunner.

[No Spam]

Thanks, Quiet.

That info about "Why how it's transferred matters..." is exactly what I was interested in. I knew the parts about the 18" minimum barrel length and 26" minimum overall length, but deciding how to start it is very helpful.

Ideally, I'd really like to turn it into a 14" barrel, but that might be a ways off (also, I didn't know it was even possible in CA), so thank you for that.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by Quiet

Effective 01-31-2023, all previous ATF brace letters were rescinded and no longer has any legal weight.
Starting 06-01-2023, possession of a firearm with an arm stabilizing brace that is not a BATFE approved Title 2 SBR is Federally illegal.

I know what they did. But they don't have the power to do that. There is certainly no parallel in real law. Congress cannot pass a law and then when the opposing party takes power, just rescind all the laws passed in the past by the other side. That's exactly what this Brandon ATF is doing.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Or you could just buy a legal shotgun in the first place, and learn to use it properly.

I have NEVER been even slightly interested in owning a "Sawed off Shotgun" and after spending considerable time learning how to be effective with a combat shotgun I can tell everyone here that it is a waste of time and these guns were not produced to be Self Defense Weapons beyond about 5 yards. Inside of 5 yards you'd probably be better off using a Baseball Bat anyway but that Bat should be at least 30" long to avoid problems with the BATF!
(Bat Alcohol Tobacco Firearms)

Randy

[L-2]

I see this thread is still going as there were some tangents/deviations/caveats discussed.

Going back to the original question, in summary, yes buy this model:
https://www.mossberg.com/590s-51605.html

and buy this Shockwave grip:
https://shockwavetechnologies.com/pr...-mossberg-500/

and you should be GTG in CA (good to go in California).

You'll end up with an 18.5" Mossberg 590S which can be converted back & forth from a shoulder stock shotgun to a Raptor-gripped shotgun in an 18.5" "Shockwave" configuration.

[No Spam]

Well, I ended up getting the 590S Shockwave (raptor grip), since that's what I was really looking for, and the one with the full buttstock was more expensive, and wasn't in stock.

I ended up ordering it online through the Wilde Built Tactical website. Now I have to wait for them to ship it from their Arizona warehouse to their El Cajon store so I can go in and start the 10 day jailtime. I don't entirely understand why I can't just start the 10 days from the day I pay for the thing! Even if I went into the store to purchase it, the timer doesn't start until the firearm is in their possession (isn't it already), and then I have to sign papers AFTER that. Seems ridiculous.

Now I'm on the hunt for some cheap shells. Mostly interested in the minishells/shorties, but I want to try everything. Any suggestions as to where to start looking?

[xblax619]

see ammoseek.com

[enorbit3]

Opsol mini clip allows you to use the shorter shells.

https://www.opsolmini-clip.com/

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by enorbit3

Opsol mini clip allows you to use the shorter shells.

https://www.opsolmini-clip.com/

But you need to remove it in order to use non-mini length shells.

The Mossberg 590S was designed and made to use all (1.75" to 3") length shells without needing to install or remove anything.

The Kel-Tec KSG/KS7 series and the Winchester 1300 series can also use all (1.75" to 3") length shells without needing any type of modification.

[plumbum]

Isn't the Stevens 320 a Win 1300 clone?

[sigstroker]

The short shells are hard to find. The Federals are supposed to be really good but are unfindable.

[No Spam]

Originally Posted by enorbit3

Opsol mini clip allows you to use the shorter shells.

https://www.opsolmini-clip.com/

I got the 590S, so no need for the adapter.
This is exactly why:

Originally Posted by Quiet

The Mossberg 590S was designed and made to use all (1.75" to 3") length shells without needing to install or remove anything.

[No Spam]

Originally Posted by xblax619

see ammoseek.com

THANK YOU!

[No Spam]

Originally Posted by sigstroker

The short shells are hard to find. The Federals are supposed to be really good but are unfindable.

Thanks to xblax619 with his AmmoSeek.com suggestion, I was able to find some Federal #8 shot Shorties at J&G Sales. I ended up getting 25 boxes of 10 rounds each (I left 2 for somebody else ). Since I was already paying for shipping, I also got 500 of 22lr and another 250 of 38 spl. That should keep me busy for a while.

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by No Spam

Thanks to xblax619 with his AmmoSeek.com suggestion, I was able to find some Federal #8 shot Shorties at J&G Sales. I ended up getting 25 boxes of 10 rounds each (I left 2 for somebody else ). Since I was already paying for shipping, I also got 500 of 22lr and another 250 of 38 spl. That should keep me busy for a while.

If you are in SoCal, specifically the Inland Empire, the Route 66 Shooting Sports Park has Federal mini #4 buck shot in stock for $10.75 for 10 rounds.
^They do not ship ammo.

[No Spam]

Originally Posted by Quiet

If you are in SoCal, specifically the Inland Empire, the Route 66 Shooting Sports Park has Federal mini #4 buck shot in stock for $10.75 for 10 rounds.
^They do not ship ammo.

Thanks. I'm in San Diego, though.
I ended up getting the mini shells for about $.83 a piece, even after shipping (which ended up being less than that price per piece, since I bought other ammo with it) and the exchange fee that the FFL is going to charge me for the transfer. Seemed like a pretty good deal.

The cheapest I could find locally was like $1.20 a piece.