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  #1  
Old 01-08-2020, 10:10 AM
ammolytics ammolytics is offline
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Default Rifle Brass Sorting Experiment - Part One

Hey everyone!

I published the first part of an ongoing experiment which explores the relationship between the weight and volume of rifle brass.

https://blog.ammolytics.com/2020-01-...-part-one.html

The results were pretty interesting, and I was surprised by a few of the findings. I hope that it's high quality enough to justify the time you spend reading it, and how much time it took me to create it.

I'd love to hear your feedback and answer any questions!
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  #2  
Old 01-08-2020, 10:16 AM
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That is a lot of data, look forward to digging into it.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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Old 01-08-2020, 12:25 PM
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I’m not a long-range or serious competitive shooter but I am interested I. The practical implications of confirming or debunking “conventional wisdom” (aka “old wives tales”). So for what little it’s worth, here’s my take on your paper, which I thought was very well done and thoroughly enjoyed reading.

The Quickload simulations suggest every one percent variation in case volume results in a one half percent change in muzzle velocity. The range of volume variations in your sample is about a half percent after one firing and one quarter of a percent after four firings. In your sample, that suggests the variation in MV due to variations in case volume starts at about 14 FPS after one firing and drops to 7 FPS after four firings, which tends to confirm the conventional wisdom about fire forming.

Using your reference load and a ballistic calculator, I ran a couple of calculations assuming a 1.75 high zero at 100 yards to see how the POI varies at 500 and 1000 yards with a Hornady 140 grain ELD match bullet at a starting MV of 2710 FPS. At 500 the drop is 44.5 inches and at 1000 it’s 302.3 inches. At an MV of 2717 the drops are 44.2 and 300.4. At 2724 the drops are 43.9 and 298.5.

Realizing that case volume is only one source of variation in competitive shooting and that variations can be cumulative as well as offsetting, It seems to me your research supports a conclusion that buying high quality brass makes more sense than sorting cases by weight, which confirms the results of the precision shooter poll.
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Old 01-09-2020, 9:21 AM
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Nice response, Jack. Appreciate someone doing the math (especially since it means I don't have to...)

As to the OP, I'm just getting to your report, and looking forward to seeing what you find.
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Old 01-09-2020, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divingin View Post
Nice response, Jack. Appreciate someone doing the math (especially since it means I don't have to...)

As to the OP, I'm just getting to your report, and looking forward to seeing what you find.
Not knowing squat about how long range matches are scored, I also concluded that using my example if there was a bull on the target at either of those distances, the effect on POI of such relatively small differences in MV would be swamped by factors like how well the shooter can steady the rifle, variations in wind over the bulletís trajectory, and variations in the powder charge.

YMMV but for me, another reason to get closer to the critter.
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Old 01-09-2020, 9:20 PM
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So what the OP is claiming is that a 185gr Hornady case has the same internal volume as a 155gr Hornady case??
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Old 01-09-2020, 10:35 PM
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So what the OP is claiming is that a 185gr Hornady case has the same internal volume as a 155gr Hornady case??
Thatís not what I took away from his paper but maybe you read something I overlooked.
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Old 01-10-2020, 9:24 AM
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I took away that he didn’t see any evidence of case weight affecting internal volume. With that said, Hornady makes 185gr cases, 165gr cases and 155gr cases for the 308. Is the OP’s position that there is no difference in internal volume in these cases?
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Old 01-10-2020, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
I took away that he didnít see any evidence of case weight affecting internal volume. With that said, Hornady makes 185gr cases, 165gr cases and 155gr cases for the 308. Is the OPís position that there is no difference in internal volume in these cases?
If Hornady or any other manufacturer sells cases for the same chamber with significantly different weights, itís news to me. I can see selling projectiles with different weights but even with bad brass Iíve never seen an article that talks about weight sorting or case volume where the spread in case weights is more than maybe 2 or 3 percent.
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Old 01-10-2020, 11:30 AM
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It may be news to you, but it’s real. The brass they sell as components weighs @165grs. Their loaded ammo brass varies from @155 to 185 grains depending on the line.

Every 5 years or so I see someone try to prove that brass weight is unrelated to internal volume. And they do experiments just like the OP. And then some people post about lawyers censoring load data, not knowing that manufacturers like Hornady have a variety of brass out there and their load data has to defer to the lowest capacity brass variant.

Bottom line is cartridge brass composition is close enough between brands that we can infer capacity from weight. Heavy brass cases have less capacity than lightweight cases. There’s nothing that’s going to change that.
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Old 01-10-2020, 1:28 PM
JackEllis JackEllis is offline
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Well, I learned something new, sort of. This post https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=549685from The Firing Line supports the idea that .308 case weights vary significantly from one manufacturer to the next, but it doesn’t necessarily demonstrate similar variations in case weights from the same manufacturer. Three different types of cases from Lake City have surprisingly similar weights.

But in the ammolytics paper, the author is using brass from a single manufacturer and it is perfectly reasonable for the volume differences in brass fired once through his rifle to be relatively insensitive to case weight since the cases have expanded to fit the chamber dimensions while case weights remain unchanged.

The author acknowledges that he probably should have tallied case weights and volumes for his unfired brass, in which case we might be having a different discussion.

One other fact to keep in mind is that brass is roughly 8 times more dense than water so if my math is correct, it takes an 8 grain different in case weight to yield a one grain difference in case volume as measured by the water filling method. A 35 grain variation in case weight translates to about a 4.5 grain difference in case volume assuming no dimensional differences in parts of the case that do not affect volume, and an 8 grain difference in case weight translates to a 2% diffence in case volume for .308 brass.
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Old 01-11-2020, 6:08 AM
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http://www.benchrest.com/hoehn/html/ammo___brass.html

Your answer
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  #13  
Old 01-12-2020, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
I took away that he didnít see any evidence of case weight affecting internal volume. With that said, Hornady makes 185gr cases, 165gr cases and 155gr cases for the 308. Is the OPís position that there is no difference in internal volume in these cases?
I'm having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say, actually. Maybe you can clarify a few things?

Can you provide some reference to the claim that Hornady makes cases of different weights for the 308? Their website doesn't seem to indicate this, so some clarity may help.

As I wrote in the article, the cases I tested were 6.5mm Creedmoor from Peterson Cartridge. This served as my starting point for the research, but there's more to be done.

I didn't test Hornady cases or 308 cases and I haven't seen any company sell cases of vastly different weights like you stated, so I'm not sure where you get the idea that I would have claimed any such thing like you wrote here.
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Old 01-12-2020, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackEllis View Post
The author acknowledges that he probably should have tallied case weights and volumes for his unfired brass, in which case we might be having a different discussion.

One other fact to keep in mind is that brass is roughly 8 times more dense than water so if my math is correct, it takes an 8 grain different in case weight to yield a one grain difference in case volume as measured by the water filling method. A 35 grain variation in case weight translates to about a 4.5 grain difference in case volume assuming no dimensional differences in parts of the case that do not affect volume, and an 8 grain difference in case weight translates to a 2% diffence in case volume for .308 brass.
I did weigh the unfired brass and that data is in the article as well as the raw dataset. Measuring case volume of unfired brass, while interesting, is likely a useless dimension.

A 35gr difference in brass weight from case to case would be... alarming. I'm not following how the difference between brass and water density really matters for the measurements or comparison you're suggesting.
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Old 01-12-2020, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ammolytics View Post
I'm having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say, actually. Maybe you can clarify a few things?

Can you provide some reference to the claim that Hornady makes cases of different weights for the 308? Their website doesn't seem to indicate this, so some clarity may help.
Are you disputing my claim?

I have Hornady 308 brass that weighs 155, 165, and 185 grains.
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Old 01-12-2020, 1:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-cat View Post

I have Hornady 308 brass that weighs 155, 165, and 185 grains.
I have been using and buying once-fired Hornady Match brass for quite a while and it has always been 165ish grains. Perhaps the standard Hornady varies?
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Old 01-12-2020, 2:24 PM
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The first Hornady 308 Match weighed 155 grains, then it increased to 165. Standard Hornady 308 weighs 165. Lately I have been finding “dot Hornady dot” weighing 185 grains.

The point is you can’t assume. You have to know. This isn’t just Hornady. Winchester is just as bad. A few years ago when Starline came out with 308 brass they were real heavy. On Wed I found a Starline 308 case that weighs 174 grains. So it looks like they’re changing too. CBC has two different 308 cases: 185 and 177. FC is consistent at around 176 grains. But in the 90’s they made 165gr cases. You still occasionally find those at the range. LC varies from 172 to 183 depending on year. WCC varies from 150 to 180 depending on year. Etc, etc.
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Old 01-12-2020, 2:59 PM
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I agree that mfr can change products from lot to lot and we must confirm rather than just assume.
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Old 01-13-2020, 8:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
Are you disputing my claim?

I have Hornady 308 brass that weighs 155, 165, and 185 grains.
I have found the same thing. I have Hornady 308 brass that weighs 155, 165 and 174 grs, The brass has gotten heavier over the years.

I found the same thing with Winchester 308 brass.

I also have some Federal 308 GMM brass from the 1970's that weigh 163 grains. Current GMM brass weighs in around 182-184 gr. and has for a number of years.

I have segregated the Hornady and Winchester brass in their weight ranges. The older 155-158 brass does have more internal capacity than the newest 170+ cases. I know this for a fact.

I was lucky to work at a Police range for 30+ years and collected the once fired 308 brass for reloading. Over the years, we used Federal GMM, Winchester Match and then Hornady TAP when that became available.
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Old 01-13-2020, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
I have found the same thing. I have Hornady 308 brass that weighs 155, 165 and 174 grs, The brass has gotten heavier over the years.
I have found I have trouble taking a reloader seriously when they declare they are THE EXPERT on brass.

Again I have brass in large lots; out of the large lots I sort cases into 20 case groups because 20 cases fit into 20 case boxes. When I go to the range I dumpster dive for containers with the approval of management.

I keep cases together through their little short lives, It is much easier to rumble and then sort by separating cases by head stamp.

And then there is the 'fire one case' and then zero the scope for the other 19 rounds.

I know that makes no sense but I load as many as 6 different loads using 6 different cases with different head stamps. After tumbling I get all of the cases back into the box they started in.

F. Guffey

And then I made a tool for sorting cases by height, the tool allows me to be able to sort the cases as fast as I can pick them up. there is no need in explaining how the tool works because it would take years to convince a reloaders it works.

F. Guffey
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Old 01-13-2020, 1:07 PM
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I separate casings by tensions.
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Old 01-13-2020, 1:07 PM
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And then there was the article written by a shooter/reloader back in the 60s. He purchased 500 cases from one manufacturer; the manufacturer claimed the cases were considered 'from the same lot'.

He sorted, separated, measured, compared, fired and fired again. After all of that work he went back and fired the culls; out of the 500 cases he settled on 47 of the cases that he claimed to be perfect and matched.

With a lot of work he could get the same accuracy from the culls but it took a lot of work. After reading the article I have not found it necessary to rediscover the art of sorting and culling and I only use about half of the criteria he used.

F. Guffey
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Old 01-13-2020, 9:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
I have found I have trouble taking a reloader seriously when they declare they are THE EXPERT on brass.
Who is that?
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Old 01-14-2020, 4:26 AM
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He posts under the name FGuffey and he claims he knows more than all the engineers at the various ammunition manufacturers and reloading manufacturers daily.
He does all of his accuracy testing with a 30 year old barrel and brass sized with a feeler gauge shoved in his press.
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Old 01-14-2020, 6:16 AM
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And it seems I am the only reloader that read the article, those that did not read his article want to claim his work for theirs.

F. Guffey
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:30 AM
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Who is claiming the OP’s work for theirs?
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:12 PM
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Old 01-14-2020, 5:02 PM
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SO is there any summary conclusion to this? Some of us more casual shooters don't latch on to the really granular points.

If you don't want to do the alcohol volume measures, is just weighing okay?
Will that get the average Joe some medium to offset flyers?

BTY, I get that the companies change their product from time to time, so nothing about shooting ever stays the same.

Would love to hear a summary.
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Old 01-15-2020, 7:21 AM
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Quote:
If you don't want to do the alcohol volume measures, is just weighing okay?
The problem, you will need to find a way to get reloaders to take their hands off of the keyboard. They read military brass is heavier and then they decided if a case is heavier it is thicker. Before the Internet I knew thicker did not mean heavier.

When it came to assuming it did not stop there. I believe the volume test is cute it is not absolute, but reloaders swear by it as they believe it is the only way.

Many years ago a shooter, reloader, bench rest type shooter purchased 500 cases from a manufacture that claimed the cases were from the same lot. He shot, sorted, separated and sorted and shot again; when finished he settled on 47 cases out of the 500. He got fantastic results from his culled cases as long as he kept them together and indexed the cases in the chamber.

Reloaders today want to be the 'go to guy' to accomplish that they have to spend a lot of time at the key board.

I have worked with cases, you will not believe how much trouble I had moving the shoulder back. I found it was impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that supported the case body.

Reloaders today find moving the shoulder back is so easy they can 'bump' it back. Not a one of them understand that 'bump' is a function of the press. All of my bump presses bump twice, they bump because they are cam over presses.

F. Guffey
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Old 01-15-2020, 8:46 AM
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Thicker does not necessarily mean heavier, but heavier means less internal volume and therefore higher pressure.
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Old 01-16-2020, 4:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
The problem, you will need to find a way to get reloaders to take their hands off of the keyboard. They read military brass is heavier and then they decided if a case is heavier it is thicker. Before the Internet I knew thicker did not mean heavier.

When it came to assuming it did not stop there. I believe the volume test is cute it is not absolute, but reloaders swear by it as they believe it is the only way.

Many years ago a shooter, reloader, bench rest type shooter purchased 500 cases from a manufacture that claimed the cases were from the same lot. He shot, sorted, separated and sorted and shot again; when finished he settled on 47 cases out of the 500. He got fantastic results from his culled cases as long as he kept them together and indexed the cases in the chamber.

Reloaders today want to be the 'go to guy' to accomplish that they have to spend a lot of time at the key board.

I have worked with cases, you will not believe how much trouble I had moving the shoulder back. I found it was impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that supported the case body.

Reloaders today find moving the shoulder back is so easy they can 'bump' it back. Not a one of them understand that 'bump' is a function of the press. All of my bump presses bump twice, they bump because they are cam over presses.

F. Guffey
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Old 01-16-2020, 5:26 AM
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And yet I remember a little while ago. Ol' Guffy saying you can't cam over a press.
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Old 01-16-2020, 8:16 AM
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I have worked with cases, you will not believe how much trouble I had moving the shoulder back. I found it was impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that supported the case body.
Well, hell, why didn't you mention this before?

Oh, wait...
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Old 01-16-2020, 8:28 AM
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And yet I remember a little while ago. Ol' Guffy saying you can't cam over a press.
SHHHHHH , he will be back to explain it using tensions
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Old 01-16-2020, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
SHHHHHH , he will be back to explain it using tensions
tensions: I have tension gages, I accept the fact none of my tension gages will measure tension, All of my tension gages are marked off in pounds. The first tension gage I used was mounted on a double, I was 14 and working on the inside floor, I noticed the snapping back and forth violently, I asked the driller if he was conserved about the gage coming apart; he said no, I then asked him how many tensions were being weighed. They all had a good laugh, none of them were reloaders.

The driller examined the tension gages was marked off to weight in thousands of pounds and if I thought the gags was recording a lot of weight multiply the weight indicated on the gage times the number of cables because the gage was installed on one cable.

And then unknow to all reloaders a manufacturer made a seating die with a hydraulic piston and pressure gage. I am the only reloaders that noticed the gage was not marked off in tensions and they did not provide a conversion chart to convert pounds to tensions.

For years and years I have said the case does not have head space. Most reloaders started by making this stuff and they have too much time invested in useless information. One reloader called SAAMI and informed them they were mistaken, after he told them how wonderful he was I know it must have been difficult for them not to take him seriously.

Cam over; Before the internet as in the mid 50s to early 60s presses came with instructions; I make no excuses, I read the instructions and now you blame me for knowing nothing about cam over.

I do not want your sympathy and I know by your giggly responses understanding is not possible. I have got to build an engine, I had decided I had built my last one. And now I am going to dig out all of my machinery and equipment; to do that I had to start making room. I moved 5 prese's to the top shelf, the instructions for those presses said those presses were cam over presses, included in the instructions they added; the cam over press is a bump press. And they went on to say the cam over press bumped twice, once on the way up and once on the way down. Being the humble person I am I decided 'bump' was a function of the press.

I have 3 RocK Chuckers, none of my Rock Chuckers are cam over presses meaning my Rock Chuckers are not bump presses'.

I am the only reloader that has taken his hands off of the keyboard to examine the Rock Chucker. All of my RC presses go into a bind before the ram can stop and change directions. The bind misaligns the ram by kicking the ram back at the botton and forward at the top.

I will never understand reloaders choosing to be silly when all they have to do is remove their hands from the keyboard, remove the press from the bench and then look at the bottom of the press. Again I have three Rock Chuckers, I can not imagine owning something and know nothing about it.

F. Guffey

Last edited by fguffey; 01-16-2020 at 10:43 AM.. Reason: add not
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Old 01-16-2020, 1:26 PM
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Told you he would hear and be back .

For someone that has been around as long as he has been() , he can't take a joke . Even from someone who at one time tried like the dickens to explain to others what he was trying to say to make it seem like he was smart .

From here on I will just read what he types , laugh , then watch the fallout .
He isn't worth putting on an ignore list just for the laughs.

Remember , don't cam over , just don't .

PS ; I do not remember blaming you for not knowing anything about cam over.
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Let those without fault cast the first stone .

Bweise says "I have to say the situation was not at all helped by 22 yr old former Airsoft douches who kept touting here, "But possession is not illegal!" "

Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones , cause I got a sling shot

Fighting on the internet is like being in the special Olympics , everybody wins but your still retarded.

Last edited by Capt.Dunsel; 01-16-2020 at 1:30 PM..
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  #37  
Old 01-16-2020, 2:03 PM
kcstott kcstott is offline
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Originally Posted by Capt.Dunsel View Post
Told you he would hear and be back .

For someone that has been around as long as he has been() , he can't take a joke . Even from someone who at one time tried like the dickens to explain to others what he was trying to say to make it seem like he was smart .

From here on I will just read what he types , laugh , then watch the fallout .
He isn't worth putting on an ignore list just for the laughs.

Remember , don't cam over , just don't .

PS ; I do not remember blaming you for not knowing anything about cam over.

I knew you were right I just knew it.

Guffy is one of those guys that reminds you that the internet should be regulated like smoking. second hand stupidity is deadly and if you wish to partake well do that in your own home.
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  #38  
Old 01-16-2020, 2:53 PM
Capt.Dunsel Capt.Dunsel is offline
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At least I figured out what the F in his name is .
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Let those without fault cast the first stone .

Bweise says "I have to say the situation was not at all helped by 22 yr old former Airsoft douches who kept touting here, "But possession is not illegal!" "

Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones , cause I got a sling shot

Fighting on the internet is like being in the special Olympics , everybody wins but your still retarded.
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  #39  
Old 01-17-2020, 7:42 AM
fguffey fguffey is offline
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SHHHHHH , he will be back to explain it using tensions
I did not believe that was funny; and by your response I do not believe you found anything funny about my response. You remind me of many other reloaders on this and other forums; you can dish that nonsense out but you can not take it.


I started in the oil field at 14, it seemed we used a different class of tools, one was called a binder, a friend was securing a load of drill pipe with binders, one got loose, the handle buried itself into his head; that almost killed him, they fitted him with a stainless plate. The binder did not cam over and the policy was to use the slack side of the chain to secure the handle.

And we had all kind of vise-grip type plyers, none of the vise grips cammed over, the instructions claimed the vise grips were designed with a leaver lock function that had a patent like the binders. And then there were Come-A-longs. No cam over just leaver locks. The name was caset into the housing.

Today, I doubt there are many that would recognize the old tool.

F. Guffey
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  #40  
Old 01-17-2020, 7:56 AM
fguffey fguffey is offline
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Remember , don't cam over , just don't .
I had to store 6 presses to make room, All 6 presses were cam over presses, again and typing as slow as they will allow me to type. All 6 presses were cam over presses. Cam over is a function of the press, all 6 presses are bump presses because the are cam over presses. All 6 of the ogresses bump twice when raising and lowering the handle, they bump once on the way up and once on the day down.

I do not believe there is member on this forum that understands why the manufacturer included the above information in the press instructions. And then in a few years they introduced another set of press information. Because reloaders do not read the second set of instructions was a waste of time.

It is like making something 'fool proof', it is not possible to make something fool proof because fools do not read.

If you do not understand cam over do the polite thing and say "I do not understand the difference between a cam over press and a non cam over press".

F. Guffey

Last edited by fguffey; 01-17-2020 at 7:57 AM.. Reason: change on
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