Military PCS and Off-Roster Handguns (Also Inheritance)

[CEDaytonaRydr]

Right off the bat, sorry for the long title of this thread but there's a lot going on with my situation, and I really couldn't find any previous threads that answered these questions. Thanks in advance for the expertise!

We're getting PCS orders back to California but we plan on keeping Alabama residency while we're there. We left in 2014, so some of my handguns were purchased through California FFLs. If I understand the laws correctly, those are okay to bring back in.

I've bought a few things since we moved in 2014 and my father passed away in 2022. He left me and my wife a few pistols and they're very sentimental. I would really like to avoid selling them, if at all possible. I'm currently in Alabama, and my father died in Colorado. I called an FFL there but they said I don't need to do an FFL transfer (which I'm 99% sure is wrong).

So I guess the real question is: Can I move back to CA with these, and what do I need to do to make that happen?

[Quiet]

As long as you did not maintain your CA residency while you were residing in another State, then CA will consider you a new resident of CA when you move to CA.

As a new resident of CA, you can legally bring any type of CA legal firearm to CA.

If you are active duty with permanent orders for CA, then you are not required to report any of the firearms you bring to CA.
This exemptions remains as long as you are active duty and have orders for CA.
If you are no longer active duty or no longer have orders for CA, then you are required to report the CA legal firearms you brought to CA within 60 days of no longer being on active duty or having orders for CA.


If you maintained you CA residency while you were residing in another State, then CA still considers you a resident of CA.
^There is no exemption to this for being in the Military.

As a CA resident, any firearm you want to legally bring to CA must be transferred to you through a CA FFL dealer. [PC 27585(a)]
^There is no exemption to this for being in the Military.

The CA FFL dealer can only transfer CA legal firearms and if the firearms are handguns, then they must be listed on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale or be exempt from it (LEO, C&R, OTP, SAE, SSE2).

Failure to utilize a CA FFL dealer to import the firearms into CA equates to a misdemeanor per long gun [PC 27590(a)] and a felony per handgun [PC 27590(c)(7)].
^There is no exemption to this for being in the Military.


Examples of maintaining CA residency...
A. Having a valid CA DL/ID.
B. Owning or renting property in CA.
C. Being registered to vote in CA.
D. Being employed in CA.
E. Being enrolled in a CA college/university as a resident.
F. Having your children enrolled in a CA K-12 school.

[CEDaytonaRydr]

Originally Posted by Quiet

As long as you did not maintain your CA residency while you were residing in another State, then CA will consider you a new resident of CA when you move to CA.

As a new resident of CA, you can legally bring any type of CA legal firearm to CA.

Ok, great! We switched from Alabama to Georgia and back again. (we've PCS'd twice more since we left California)

By "California Legal", does that mean they have to be on the roster?

If you maintained you CA residency while you were residing in another State, then CA still considers you a resident of CA.
^There is no exemption to this for being in the Military.

We did not

As a CA resident, any firearm you want to legally bring to CA must be transferred to you through a CA FFL dealer. [PC 27585(a)]
^There is no exemption to this for being in the Military.

So, if I want something, buy it now?

The CA FFL dealer can only transfer CA legal firearms and if the firearms are handguns, then they must be listed on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale or be exempt from it (LEO, C&R, OTP, SAE, SSE2).

This is for when our orders end, if we stay I assume?

Failure to utilize a CA FFL dealer to import the firearms into CA equates to a misdemeanor per long gun [PC 27590(a)] and a felony per handgun [PC 27590(c)(7)].
^There is no exemption to this for being in the Military.

Examples of maintaining CA residency...
A. Having a valid CA DL/ID.
B. Owning or renting property in CA.
C. Being registered to vote in CA.
D. Being employed in CA.
E. Being enrolled in a CA college/university as a resident.
F. Having your children enrolled in a CA K-12 school.

We have owned CA property the whole time. We will be moving back to a home we lived in previously. I assume this is only if we don't have orders and we stay in CA..?

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by CEDaytonaRydr

By "California Legal", does that mean they have to be on the roster?

CA legal firearm means it is not considered an assault weapon, destructive device, machine gun, or generally prohibited weapon (short barreled rifle, short barreled shotgun, unconventional pistol, pen gun, etc) under CA laws.

Being listed on the CA Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale is not a requirement for being CA legal.

[CEDaytonaRydr]

Originally Posted by Quiet

Being listed on the CA Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale is not a requirement for being CA legal.

Awesome! Thank you so much!!!

[Quiet]

Also be aware that the old exemption to CA large capacity magazine laws that allowed a person who legally owned/possessed large capacity magazines in CA to take them outside of CA and bring them back to CA has been repealed and none of the Court actions have reinstated it.

Which means it is illegal for you to bring any personally owned large capacity magazines or large capacity magazine parts kits to CA.

Active duty Military are only exempt from the prohibition on importation for the purpose of bringing the large capacity magazines that are issued to them by the Military.
^The Military owns those magazines, not the person that was issued them, and the Military is exempt.

Which means, legally, you can only bring personally owned 10 or less round magazines into CA.
^Your personally owned large capacity magazines will need to remain outside of CA or be permanently altered into 10 or less round magazines.


In addition...

It is illegal to bring any prohibited ammunition to CA.

CA prohibited ammunition means it is considered flechette, explosive, incendiary, tracer, or handgun armor piercing.

[CEDaytonaRydr]

Originally Posted by Quiet

Also be aware that the old exemption to CA large capacity magazine laws that allowed a person who legally owned/possessed large capacity magazines in CA to take them outside of CA and bring them back to CA has been repealed and none of the Court actions have reinstated it.

Which means it is illegal for you to bring any personally owned large capacity magazines or large capacity magazine parts kits to CA.

Active duty Military are only exempt from the prohibition on importation for the purpose of bringing the large capacity magazines that are issued to them by the Military.
^The Military owns those magazines, not the person that was issued them, and the Military is exempt.

Which means, legally, you can only bring personally owned 10 or less round magazines into CA.
^Your personally owned large capacity magazines will need to remain outside of CA or be permanently altered into 10 or less round magazines.


In addition...

It is illegal to bring any prohibited ammunition to CA.

CA prohibited ammunition means it is considered flechette, explosive, incendiary, tracer, or handgun armor piercing.

Good to know!

What about the issue with the guns I inherited? They were purchased in California but my Dad retired in Colorado when he passed. Do I need to do anything about those?

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by CEDaytonaRydr

Good to know!

What about the issue with the guns I inherited? They were purchased in California but my Dad retired in Colorado when he passed. Do I need to do anything about those?

No. CA has no way to look at any transfers outside of CA, absent a criminal investigation.

Also note, the 'no need to report to CA' applies to service members transferred here, but not to dependents. So of course, all the guns you bring belong to the service member, right?

But if you happen to separate in CA, then you and dependents would report whatever guns not yet known to CA.

[CEDaytonaRydr]

Originally Posted by Librarian

Also note, the 'no need to report to CA' applies to service members transferred here, but not to dependents. So of course, all the guns you bring belong to the service member, right?

But if you happen to separate in CA, then you and dependents would report whatever guns not yet known to CA.

Yeah, because a lot of my firearms will be going to my children someday. Should we look into a trust?

[RickD427]

Mr. "Quiet" covered the "New Resident" and "Returning Resident" and the magazine importation issues quite well. Please read his postings in detail. These are both issues likely to trap military folks.

With regard to your statement about retaining your Alabama residency, you may be able to keep it for several purposes under the "Soldiers and Sailors Civil Relief Act". But you can't do that for purposes of federal firearms laws. Under 18USC921, you're a California resident, and only a Californian resident, while in California on PCS orders.

[BAJ475]

Originally Posted by RickD427

Mr. "Quiet" covered the "New Resident" and "Returning Resident" and the magazine importation issues quite well. Please read his postings in detail. These are both issues likely to trap military folks.

With regard to your statement about retaining your Alabama residency, you may be able to keep it for several purposes under the "Soldiers and Sailors Civil Relief Act". But you can't do that for purposes of federal firearms laws. Under 18USC921, you're a California resident, and only a Californian resident, while in California on PCS orders.

Yes, but what that means is that he can purchase firearms in California the same as other California residents once he gets to California. 18 U.S.C. 921(b) states: "For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located." Thus, it does not effect any other rights the person may have including choosing their place of domicile. So to me this raises an interesting question. Could he legally go back to Alabama and purchase firearms while he is stationed in California, assuming that Alabama has no law to prohibit such a sale and purchase?

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by BAJ475

Yes, but what that means is that he can purchase firearms in California the same as other California residents once he gets to California. 18 U.S.C. 921(b) states: "For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located." Thus, it does not effect any other rights the person may have including choosing their place of domicile. So to me this raises an interesting question. Could he legally go back to Alabama and purchase firearms while he is stationed in California, assuming that Alabama has no law to prohibit such a sale and purchase?

No.

That's an exclusive place of residence in the law you quote - only one, the place of PCS location, applies for gun purposes. (There is an 'adjacent state' special case.)

See http://web.archive.org/web/202002160...y_requirements

[dbub]

So if my son moved to Texas for college, gave up his California license and got a Texas license, then came back to California after college, could he bring his Glock 43x back with him through an ffl even though it?s not on roster? This is a real question. Thanks

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by dbub

So if my son moved to Texas for college, gave up his California license and got a Texas license, then came back to California after college, could he bring his Glock 43x back with him through an ffl even though it?s not on roster? This is a real question. Thanks

Looks like no.

Perfectly legal for him to buy in TX - feds say resident students are residents of their states of education for gun purposes.

And, running those purchased guns back through a CA FFL is the way to satisfy PC 27585.

But, unless there's some exemption from the Roster here, and you didn't mention one, the CA FFL will not be able to transfer the off-Roster handgun back to him.

[RickD427]

Originally Posted by BAJ475

Yes, but what that means is that he can purchase firearms in California the same as other California residents once he gets to California. 18 U.S.C. 921(b) states: "For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located." Thus, it does not effect any other rights the person may have including choosing their place of domicile. So to me this raises an interesting question. Could he legally go back to Alabama and purchase firearms while he is stationed in California, assuming that Alabama has no law to prohibit such a sale and purchase?

There is no state or federal issue if the OP purchases a handgun, either from a dealer, or via PPT while he is in California under PCS orders.

I also don't see any violation of Alabama law if he were to purchase a handgun while in Alabama, and in possession of Alabama ID documents.

I don't see any violation of law if he were to retain his Alabama ID documents while in California. The Soldiers and Sailors Civil Relief Act specifically permits this, and also provides that Alabama documents remain valid even if facially expired during his tour of duty in California.

The problem exists in the federal law. 18USC922(b) specifically defines him as a California resident for purposes of the federal firearms laws. It makes no provision for him to be a resident of any other state during that time. It is possible to read 27CFR478.11 to the conclusion that he is a Alabama resident when in Alabama (assuming that he maintained a home in Alabama while stationed in California. But that reading would create a conflict between the statute and the regulation. The statute wins that one.

Federal law (18USC922(a)(9)) makes it a felony for him to receive a firearm in a state where he does not reside, but with the "Sporting Purposes" exception for which I haven't seen any case law. If the Alabama dealer had knowledge that the OP was stationed in California, then the dealer commits a felony under 922USC((b)(3) unless the weapon is a rifle or shotgun and is permitted in the purchasers home state (used to be called the "adjoining state" clause, but now applies to all states).

Even if the OP could lawfully purchase the handgun in Alabama, he would be committing both state and federal felonies by personally bringing it into California (please refer to 19USC922(a)(3) for the federal violation and PC 25785 and 27590 for the state violations).

California state law really has the potential to inadvertently screw over military folks, and I like to look out for them. You did real good going to Idaho. If you had good surfing and a real seaport (Lewiston don't count), I'd be there also.

[BAJ475]

Originally Posted by RickD427

There is no state or federal issue if the OP purchases a handgun, either from a dealer, or via PPT while he is in California under PCS orders.

I also don't see any violation of Alabama law if he were to purchase a handgun while in Alabama, and in possession of Alabama ID documents.

I don't see any violation of law if he were to retain his Alabama ID documents while in California. The Soldiers and Sailors Civil Relief Act specifically permits this, and also provides that Alabama documents remain valid even if facially expired during his tour of duty in California.

The problem exists in the federal law. 18USC922(b) specifically defines him as a California resident for purposes of the federal firearms laws. It makes no provision for him to be a resident of any other state during that time. It is possible to read 27CFR478.11 to the conclusion that he is a Alabama resident when in Alabama (assuming that he maintained a home in Alabama while stationed in California. But that reading would create a conflict between the statute and the regulation. The statute wins that one.

Federal law (18USC922(a)(9)) makes it a felony for him to receive a firearm in a state where he does not reside, but with the "Sporting Purposes" exception for which I haven't seen any case law. If the Alabama dealer had knowledge that the OP was stationed in California, then the dealer commits a felony under 922USC((b)(3) unless the weapon is a rifle or shotgun and is permitted in the purchasers home state (used to be called the "adjoining state" clause, but now applies to all states).

Even if the OP could lawfully purchase the handgun in Alabama, he would be committing both state and federal felonies by personally bringing it into California (please refer to 19USC922(a)(3) for the federal violation and PC 25785 and 27590 for the state violations).

California state law really has the potential to inadvertently screw over military folks, and I like to look out for them. You did real good going to Idaho. If you had good surfing and a real seaport (Lewiston don't count), I'd be there also.

Thank you for your response. It did seem to me that there was an exception for hunting rifles. Thank you for directing me to the statute. Are you aware of a case or maybe a federal statute or regulation that defines what is a "lawful sporting purposes?" Taken literally, I could have purchased all of my firearms in states where I did not reside because, to me, they are all for sporting purposes, such as target shooting. And now that we have Bruen, the prohibition seems unconstitutional.

Yes, moving from CA to ID was one of the best decisions I have made. The only down side is that we contributed to increasing the cost of housing in Idaho.

[RickD427]

Originally Posted by BAJ475

Thank you for your response. It did seem to me that there was an exception for hunting rifles. Thank you for directing me to the statute. Are you aware of a case or maybe a federal statute or regulation that defines what is a "lawful sporting purposes?" Taken literally, I could have purchased all of my firearms in states where I did not reside because, to me, they are all for sporting purposes, such as target shooting. And now that we have Bruen, the prohibition seems unconstitutional.

Yes, moving from CA to ID was one of the best decisions I have made. The only down side is that we contributed to increasing the cost of housing in Idaho.

I haven't seen any case law on the point, and that's really what makes me uncomfortable. I can easily see a nice prosecutor arguing that target shooting is a recreation rather than a sport (the old semantic "Divide and Conquer").

[Chewy65]

I wonder aout the conventional wisdom as to the application of PC 17000. The section provides how to determine if a person has entered the state as a resident. The question is confused with determining whether one is entering as a new resident. I don't believe that is appropriate and if it is in some circumstences, it is not in others. What of the person who goes off to school in another state and never manifests any thought of returning or does so manifest them, but manifrest an intention not to return after leaving "home". They fall in love with their state of schooling, or even a third state, only to end up returning to CA due to how the deck is played. Why should they not be treated the same as their Nabraska school chum, who also took a job with the same company at the same San Francisco employer?