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  #41  
Old 02-20-2019, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
Already answered that. See above.

You should contact your DOJ auditor and get an opinion.

Are you willing to risk your FFL doing any such transfers?
But what if they are NOT using the AR pistol for official duties. E.g, they intend to only use it at the range? Then how does that qualify based on your quoted info? It doesn't. It means it is a range toy and not used off/on duty in their official duties and should not be allowed to transfer.

Same for race guns or off roster guns never intended for carry or on duty use.

Or do I misunderstand off duty official use and that covers any activity for LEO?

I would contact my DOJ auditor to get an opinion if I needed to. But I've not seen the credentials of the person I gave my example of so I could not present the scenario accurately. I can tell you that his boss told him they qualify for the exemption, for whatever that's worth.
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  #42  
Old 02-20-2019, 2:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
But what if they are NOT using the AR pistol for official duties. E.g, they intend to only use it at the range? Then how does that qualify based on your quoted info? It doesn't. It means it is a range toy and not used off/on duty in their official duties and should not be allowed to transfer.

Same for race guns or off roster guns never intended for carry or on duty use.

Or do I misunderstand off duty official use and that covers any activity for LEO?

I would contact my DOJ auditor to get an opinion if I needed to. But I've not seen the credentials of the person I gave my example of so I could not present the scenario accurately. I can tell you that his boss told him they qualify for the exemption, for whatever that's worth.
All guns can be used to practice and improve your shooting skills (training). All of that training is considered part of a LEO's "official duties"...


LEO's can claim firearms, ammo and other items used for training as for "business use" and deduct those costs on their state and federal income taxes. Those items don't ever have to be carried or used while "on duty".

LEO's are "Peace Officers" in California 24-7 365. Being "off duty" does not change that status.

As to your question about "credentials" for DDA's

I was going to make that question.

What credentials could a regular Deputy DA who is not a DA's investigator with LEO authorities give you to prove they qualified to purchase off roster handguns.

I seriously doubt a Bar card and ID from the DA's office would suffice.

Otherwise every single DA employee would be exempt, and common sense tells us that isn't the case.

The whole purpose of the LEO exemption is to exempt people who are actually involved in Law Enforcement.

As stated in the law. "for use in the discharge of their official duties."

The only employees of the DA's office who use firearms " "in the discharge of their official duties" are DA's investigators, who have actual LEO arrest authorities and have the required training.

Trial attorneys have no such authorities or training.
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  #43  
Old 02-20-2019, 2:34 PM
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socialism is for the people, not the socialists so of course they are exempt.
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  #44  
Old 02-20-2019, 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
All guns can be used to practice and improve your shooting skills (training). All of that training is considered part of a LEO's "official duties"...





LEO's can claim firearms, ammo and other items used for training as for "business use" and deduct those costs on their state and federal income taxes. Those items don't ever have to be carried or used while "on duty".



LEO's are "Peace Officers" in California 24-7 365. Being "off duty" does not change that status.



As to your question about "credentials" for DDA's



I was going to make that question.



What credentials could a regular Deputy DA who is not a DA's investigator with LEO authorities give you to prove they qualified to purchase off roster handguns.



I seriously doubt a Bar card and ID from the DA's office would suffice.



Otherwise every single DA employee would be exempt, and common sense tells us that isn't the case.



The whole purpose of the LEO exemption is to exempt people who are actually involved in Law Enforcement.



As stated in the law. "for use in the discharge of their official duties."



The only employees of the DA's office who use firearms " "in the discharge of their official duties" are DA's investigators, who have actual LEO arrest authorities and have the required training.



Trial attorneys have no such authorities or training.
From what I was told this guy is sworn in with a badge but I haven't seen it so not sure. He's a friend of a friend and I know does trial stuff but was told he also had a badge.

Without further first hand knowledge I will leave it at that.

So what he could show me is a badge/credential that has similar wording on it as an LEO and that would be what I would present to my CA DOJ auditor to further confirm exempt or not.

I can't imagine his boss being a lawyer would knowingly tell their employee they are roster exempt if they did not believe it was legal. I guess it's not a stretch that they do not understand the penal code either though.

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  #45  
Old 02-20-2019, 3:46 PM
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I guess it's not a stretch that they do not understand the penal code either though.
That's why it's called "practicing" law... LOL

Same with doctors. They "practice" medicine.

Nothing about getting it right...
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  #46  
Old 02-20-2019, 4:15 PM
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There are differences in sworn members of a DA office and employees of the DA office. Clerks and administrative staff are not sworn members. Deputy DAs are sworn by Oath, and in some counties are issued a badge and I’d, while in others are just issued an I’d.

DA investigators are sworn peace officers.

SVT is highly relying on the fact that Sworn member means Sworn peace officer only.

While it is true all peace officers are sworn members, not all sworn members are peace officers. Not all members are sworn members either. Which is why, very importantly, we rely on which term is used, sworn member or sworn peace officer. Words have meanings. (See fixed mag vs non-detachable mag. See fixed stock vs fixed mag - multiple examples of how the word fixed can mean two different things with regard to the ability to use a tool To unfix the stock or mag)

I think that DDAs being sworn members is established and even though DAs are just lawyers, they still take a sworn oath to enforce and execute the law As required for their part in the executive branch of government. I think the fact that they are not peace officers as defined by penal Code 832 or other relevant statutes is agreed upon by all. No one is saying they are peace officers. Only that they are sworn members of a DA’s office and the statute calls For sworn members.

Which leave the “in the discharge of their official duties” portion.

First, that statement is extremely vague in multiple ways. Does it mean it’s for the use of duties while acting in their official capacity? Law enforcement officers are not acting in their official capacity when off duty. Despite your statement that they are cops 24-7/365. Their actions are not 100% within the scope of their duties all the time either. If a LEO gets into a fight while off duty with someone, the other person does not get to claim Police brutality, much less is it an assault on a peace officer if the other person did not know they were engaging a police officer and assualting them on purpose.

A cop is not a cop when driving off duty. He does not have the authority to speed or drive recklessly, he cannot pull people over and issue citations. He must be in his official capacity to do so.

Furthermore the agency for which the peace officer works will not take on the liability for all of their officers 24/7, only while within the scope of their official duties. So, is the off roster exemption only good for the discharge of their official duties.

Next, Is the possibility of it being within the scope of their official duties the same as for the actual discharge of their official duties. Does the officer that purchased an AK pistol truly intend on training with that weapon for the purposes of training within the official training exercises of their official duties or the idea that it is simply possible to train with an ak possible enough to satisfy the requirement of “discharge of their official duties”?

I’ll thing you’ll find the line being blurred and blurred with more what ifs.

Next there is also the statement “PC3200 does not prohibit members of these agencies from purchasing unsafe handguns” notice that stamens does not say pc3200(a)... it says the entire penal code 32000! So arguably, the discharge of their official duties requirement is not even applicable to members of the agency, only the agency themselves. Sworn members are exempt from The whole statute according to the statute.

Now lastly, there seems to be a bit of hate on how you view lawyers, and rightfully so, a lot of people do. To say it’s called practicing law or practicing medicine because they can’t get the law right is not true and that’s why they are still practicing. It’s because the law constantly changes and so does medicine. But I think you knew that.

Just remember, everything a lawyer does in their official capacity gets documented for history to learn from. Every argument made, every motion filed, and every piece of evidence brought forward. They play a very important role for
All three branches of government. DAs especially have the highest duty to preserve justice as set forth in the constitution. That 4th amendment violation issue, needs to be disclosed and shared with the defendant even if it is bad for the prosecutions case. It is in their hands that justice and rights are actually delivered. So don’t downplay lawyers my man, especially DAs.
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  #47  
Old 02-20-2019, 5:02 PM
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25 year prosecutor, supervisor, worked in 4 different counties.

Deputy DA's are not roster exempt, not peace officers, not able to buy any off-roster gun they want. Doesn't matter that they're "sworn" to be prosecutors or that they get issued badges. Security guards get issued badges, too.

Jeezus Crist, can you imagine how many off roster guns I'd have by now???
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  #48  
Old 02-20-2019, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by p7m8jg View Post
25 year prosecutor, supervisor, worked in 4 different counties.

Deputy DA's are not roster exempt, not peace officers, not able to buy any off-roster gun they want. Doesn't matter that they're "sworn" to be prosecutors or that they get issued badges. Security guards get issued badges, too.

Jeezus Crist, can you imagine how many off roster guns I'd have by now???
Someone in the know! Thanks appreciate it.

I’m Curious about the bolded part. I agree with everything else. The bolded part is a bit conclusive. Think you can shed some light on how you got that conclusion?
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  #49  
Old 02-20-2019, 7:16 PM
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I think that varies by jurisdiction. Our DDAs are LE. They carry badges and can make arrests, and they carry openly while on duty if they qualify.
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  #50  
Old 02-20-2019, 8:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p7m8jg View Post
25 year prosecutor, supervisor, worked in 4 different counties.

Deputy DA's are not roster exempt, not peace officers, not able to buy any off-roster gun they want. Doesn't matter that they're "sworn" to be prosecutors or that they get issued badges. Security guards get issued badges, too.

Jeezus Crist, can you imagine how many off roster guns I'd have by now???
In my example why would his boss tell him Off Roster is ok then? I guess I could have the guys title wrong. I've done an escape room with the guy, but didn't know at the time his line of employment or would have prodded more..my buddy told me later what he did for work...

ETA: He's a Deputy DA (I just got clarification) in LA County... I don't understand why his boss would be setting them up given they (like you probably) are much more lawyer speak versed then most of us in this thread..
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  #51  
Old 02-21-2019, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
In my example why would his boss tell him Off Roster is ok then? I guess I could have the guys title wrong. I've done an escape room with the guy, but didn't know at the time his line of employment or would have prodded more..my buddy told me later what he did for work...

ETA: He's a Deputy DA (I just got clarification) in LA County... I don't understand why his boss would be setting them up given they (like you probably) are much more lawyer speak versed then most of us in this thread.

Because, his boss does not fully understand California gun law and never took the time to fully research the issue. Hopefully the FFLs will not be duped by such BS. p7m8jg has it correct.

Last edited by BAJ475; 02-21-2019 at 12:17 AM..
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  #52  
Old 02-21-2019, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by p7m8jg View Post
25 year prosecutor, supervisor, worked in 4 different counties.

Deputy DA's are not roster exempt, not peace officers, not able to buy any off-roster gun they want. Doesn't matter that they're "sworn" to be prosecutors or that they get issued badges. Security guards get issued badges, too.

Jeezus Crist, can you imagine how many off roster guns I'd have by now???
That depends on the number your spouse would let you buy.
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  #53  
Old 02-21-2019, 6:15 AM
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Originally Posted by caliguy93 View Post
Someone in the know! Thanks appreciate it.

Iím Curious about the bolded part. I agree with everything else. The bolded part is a bit conclusive. Think you can shed some light on how you got that conclusion?
You "swear" to uphold the laws and constitution of the state of California. The word "sworn" is not conclusive making anyone LE. There are 832 PC requirements by POST that have to be met, etc.
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  #54  
Old 02-21-2019, 6:18 AM
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Originally Posted by wichlaz View Post
I think that varies by jurisdiction. Our DDAs are LE. They carry badges and can make arrests, and they carry openly while on duty if they qualify.
If you're saying the are PC 832 sworn peace officers as Deputy District Attorneys, I'd like to know what county that is.

You have to attend a police academy to be a peace officer. Prosecutors do not attend a police academy as a requirement for their job (I know, some have been peace officers and then become DDA's - like me). But I'm not a cop. I have no further powers of arrest than the average citizen.

I'm not saying it's impossible for a DDA to be LE, just like DDA's sometimes get sworn in as Federal Attorneys so they can work on task forces.

but I'd like to know which county has DDA's as PC832 full powers of arrest, carry LE, if you're willing to share.

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  #55  
Old 02-21-2019, 6:20 AM
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Because, his boss does not fully understand California gun law and never took the time to fully research the issue. Hopefully the FFLs will not be duped by such BS. p7m8jg has it correct.
This.

No offense to his boss. Ask him who in his office he personally knows has purchased an off-roster weapon from an FFL as a DDA. Not PPT, from an FFL. Something nobody else can buy except for LE. I love the Ruger Mk whatever with the fancy colors and ventilated barrels. But I can't buy them.
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  #56  
Old 02-21-2019, 8:14 AM
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Originally Posted by p7m8jg View Post
You "swear" to uphold the laws and constitution of the state of California. The word "sworn" is not conclusive making anyone LE. There are 832 PC requirements by POST that have to be met, etc.
Please explain where it says a sworn member must be a LEO?


I’ll post again what stance the CRPA has taken on the subject

https://www.crpa.org/crpa-news/sworn...-roster-alert/

Quote:
The law also “does not prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies of a handgun.” So what constitutes a “sworn member”?

The term “sworn member” is not defined in the law. But any individual who can show proof that they are a “sworn member” of any of the above listed agencies should be exempt from the Roster requirement. This should be true even though they may not qualify as “peace officers,” as that term is defined under California Penal Code section 830. Typically, “peace officers” are “sworn members.” But, “sworn members” may not always be “peace officers.”

Problematically, DOJ has cited several licensed firearm retailers with violations of the law for selling an off-Roster handgun to individuals who are not “peace officers,” even though they are “sworn members” of the exempted agencies. That is wrong. DOJ is conflating the term “sworn member” in the “unsafe handgun” law with specific exceptions for “peace officers” created in other laws that apply when purchasing firearms, such as the “peace officer” exceptions to the 10-day waiting period and Firearm Safety Certificate (FSC).

In light of DOJ’s confusion, “sworn members” of the above referenced agencies who want to purchase firearms that are not on the Roster should bring written proof of their “sworn member” status to their local firearm dealer at the time of purchase (even though there is no requirement under California law that a “sworn member” of an agency provide written proof of the member’s status.) This should protect the firearm dealer and the sworn member. Any dealer processing these transactions should keep a copy of the sworn member’s letter along with the other transferee’s paperwork.

Sadly, this incorrect policy edict is yet another sad example of the California Department of Justice interpreting California law to satisfy its own inclinations about how the law should read, rather than how the law actually does read.
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  #57  
Old 02-21-2019, 9:38 AM
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Please explain where it says a sworn member must be a LEO?

Iíll post again what stance the CRPA has taken on the subject

https://www.crpa.org/crpa-news/sworn...-roster-alert/
This thread is becoming pointless - everybody "knows" what they "know" or what they read somewhere or heard from someone else We can argue back and forth that A means B or C under the law. But until somebody shows me a deputy district attorney / prosecutor, not peace officer, bought any gun he wanted that was off roster, reading and re-reading the law means nothing, because the law is always open to interpretation and appellate courts often disagree on meaning until it's settled by the STate Supreme Court.

Reasonable minds can differ. Unsubscribing to this thread since it's not going anywhere. No offense to anyone.
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  #58  
Old 02-21-2019, 9:45 AM
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Originally Posted by p7m8jg View Post
This thread is becoming pointless - everybody "knows" what they "know" or what they read somewhere or heard from someone else We can argue back and forth that A means B or C under the law. But until somebody shows me a deputy district attorney / prosecutor, not peace officer, bought any gun he wanted that was off roster, reading and re-reading the law means nothing, because the law is always open to interpretation and appellate courts often disagree on meaning until it's settled by the STate Supreme Court.

Reasonable minds can differ. Unsubscribing to this thread since it's not going anywhere. No offense to anyone.
What this thread DOES highlight is the fact that our gun laws are so jacked up the DAs/DDAs that are supposed to help enforce them do not fully understand/agree on the interpretation of them.

That being said how is anyone else in the state supposed to understand them. Why is there a legal expectation that all citizens are required to understand laws that the legal profession cannot seem to 100% agree on?

...it's sad...
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  #59  
Old 02-22-2019, 11:18 AM
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https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/exemptpo

Does this mean that military personnel/california guard can legally purchase off-roster firearms from ffl?
Im still confused after reading everyones input...

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  #60  
Old 02-24-2019, 4:57 AM
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Originally Posted by eddiea89 View Post
https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/exemptpo

Does this mean that military personnel/california guard can legally purchase off-roster firearms from ffl?
Im still confused after reading everyones input...

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NO
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