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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #3001  
Old 04-19-2019, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dwinters14 View Post
Which is why I think SCOTUS may not moot the case. It's always been about the bigger picture, and the way I see it, the conservatives on the bench are as frustrated as we are with the infringements over the past 3 decades.

If they moot this case, I believe they will take another to make the wide reaching opinion they planned for.

The libs better buckle up because their house of cards is about to get mollywhopped.
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Pena
That may be why they are holding Pena.... Either case would serve to define scrutiny... Both would be better...
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  #3002  
Old 04-19-2019, 2:15 PM
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Which is why I think SCOTUS may not moot the case. It's always been about the bigger picture, and the way I see it, the conservatives on the bench are as frustrated as we are with the infringements over the past 3 decades.

If they moot this case, I believe they will take another to make the wide reaching opinion they planned for.

The libs better buckle up because their house of cards is about to get mollywhopped.
That would be nice.... I think I am suffering from "battered wife syndrome", I'm just expecting the worst and feel like we are going to get backhanded yet again.
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  #3003  
Old 04-19-2019, 2:44 PM
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That would be nice.... I think I am suffering from "battered wife syndrome", I'm just expecting the worst and feel like we are going to get backhanded yet again.
Battered California Gunowner Syndrome is real. We've been kicked around for 20+ years so now we expect it even when we may be about to get a big win. I want to believe it'll happen. I want to win for once. I'll hope against all odds.
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  #3004  
Old 04-19-2019, 2:49 PM
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Battered California Gunowner Syndrome is real. We've been kicked around for 20+ years so now we expect it even when we may be about to get a big win. I want to believe it'll happen. I want to win for once. I'll hope against all odds.


Amen, brother. We’re so battered that even when we get a win we’re so in denial that we think it’s a loss.
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  #3005  
Old 04-19-2019, 3:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mshill View Post
That would be nice.... I think I am suffering from "battered wife syndrome", I'm just expecting the worst and feel like we are going to get backhanded yet again.

I don’t know, this time feels different. Maybe I’m still drunk from buying all those magazines . But I have a good feeling this time.
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  #3006  
Old 04-19-2019, 3:47 PM
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Battered California Gunowner Syndrome is real. We've been kicked around for 20+ years so now we expect it even when we may be about to get a big win. I want to believe it'll happen. I want to win for once. I'll hope against all odds.
Definitely, and although it can be frustrating to hear sometimes I get it. Look at what happened with the mags... and SCOTUS granted cert on a 2A case, while having a conservative majority.

I know the past hurts, but we have to look at things right now. The 9th's liberal bias is slowly being diminished as well. At this point it's a matter of how big and far reaching of a victory we get.

If Trump gets re-elected I think we're going to be good. Not to mention I think most people are fed up with the gun control bs. Most Americans know it doesn't work and as far as I see it, unless running in navy blue districts, gun control is a losing battle nationally.
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  #3007  
Old 04-19-2019, 6:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dwinters14 View Post
Definitely, and although it can be frustrating to hear sometimes I get it. Look at what happened with the mags... and SCOTUS granted cert on a 2A case, while having a conservative majority.

I know the past hurts, but we have to look at things right now. The 9th's liberal bias is slowly being diminished as well. At this point it's a matter of how big and far reaching of a victory we get.

If Trump gets re-elected I think we're going to be good. Not to mention I think most people are fed up with the gun control bs. Most Americans know it doesn't work and as far as I see it, unless running in navy blue districts, gun control is a losing battle nationally.
Unfortunately those navy blue districts seem to be growing in size. Voter fraud anyone?

But I agree, we have a victory on the horizons. I just hope it is sooner rather than later. What sucks is the state is able to make these laws and even if it gets overturned we are the people who end up following them for the years until that happens.
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  #3008  
Old 04-19-2019, 6:06 PM
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Battered California Gunowner Syndrome is real. We've been kicked around for 20+ years so now we expect it even when we may be about to get a big win.
Gun owners in CA be like:

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  #3009  
Old 04-19-2019, 6:40 PM
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Default Peña v. Cid (Handgun Roster) **CERT PETITION 12/28/18**

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Originally Posted by daninger4995 View Post
What sucks is the state is able to make these laws and even if it gets overturned we are the people who end up following them for the years until that happens.
While gangbangers and other criminals have off-roster firearms and ARs with standard capacity mags


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  #3010  
Old 04-20-2019, 2:59 AM
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Didnt read thru all of this but if the roster were to be removed, would we be able to purchase AR lowers DROSed as pistol lowers or is that a completely different law?
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  #3011  
Old 04-20-2019, 4:11 AM
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It may be on hold. See this from SCOTUSblog. Probably because of the NYC case.
This is my take as well. We could very well be looking at a scenario where numerous 2A cases will be in the black hole just waiting for NYSRPA to be handed down. Presuming a win in that case, all black hole cases get sent back to the lower courts for resolution.
They're already "holding" Pena and Mance at the moment.
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  #3012  
Old 04-20-2019, 5:46 AM
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Didnt read thru all of this but if the roster were to be removed, would we be able to purchase AR lowers DROSed as pistol lowers or is that a completely different law?
I believe so, it would just have to be mag locked when built and 10rnd mags.
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  #3013  
Old 04-20-2019, 6:27 AM
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I believe so, it would just have to be mag locked when built and 10rnd mags.
I wonder if the roster gets tossed, what the determining factor would be. If it's based around the restriction of the firearms (Micro stamping, LCI, and all the other little tidbits the roster includes) I think the AW on pistols may go as well.

It just wouldn't make sense for them to cherry pick certain restrictions to get rid off and not others. I think if the roster gets vacated it will come along with an opinion much like Benitez's about magazines. Which I think would open the door to upending almost all of these idiotic restrictions on our firearms in CA.
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  #3014  
Old 04-20-2019, 7:18 AM
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Originally Posted by dwinters14 View Post
I wonder if the roster gets tossed, what the determining factor would be. If it's based around the restriction of the firearms (Micro stamping, LCI, and all the other little tidbits the roster includes) I think the AW on pistols may go as well.

It just wouldn't make sense for them to cherry pick certain restrictions to get rid off and not others. I think if the roster gets vacated it will come along with an opinion much like Benitez's about magazines. Which I think would open the door to upending almost all of these idiotic restrictions on our firearms in CA.

We would be able to buy stripped lowers and dros them as pistols. But the AW feature bans would still be valid, until those are stricken down also.
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  #3015  
Old 04-20-2019, 7:52 AM
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We would be able to buy stripped lowers and dros them as pistols. But the AW feature bans would still be valid, until those are stricken down also.
That would mean we dont have to pay $300+ for a stripped pistol lower right? Cuz if that’s the case, i’m gonna have to buy like 5 lowers DROSed as pistols when/if that time comes.
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  #3016  
Old 04-20-2019, 8:55 AM
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That would mean we dont have to pay $300+ for a stripped pistol lower right? Cuz if that’s the case, i’m gonna have to buy like 5 lowers DROSed as pistols when/if that time comes.

If that happen I think you can dros them as other, or something like that. Then you build them into whatever you want. I believe that’s what happens in most other states.
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  #3017  
Old 04-20-2019, 9:39 AM
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Let us not drift into speculations regarding other parts of CA law - this thread is Roster-specific, at least until there might be a SCOTUS opinion covering more ground.

(I realize that waiting for something to happen is quite difficult. Please work on it - builds character.)
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  #3018  
Old 04-20-2019, 11:29 AM
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I don't want to be the skunk at the garden party, and I hope I am wrong, but.... The reason for the delay in entry of a result of the status conference could be a decision to deny that is having a dissent being written. This dissent might have multiple authors, so it takes longer to get to a final product.
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  #3019  
Old 04-20-2019, 11:36 AM
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I don't want to be the skunk at the garden party, and I hope I am wrong, but.... The reason for the delay in entry of a result of the status conference could be a decision to deny that is having a dissent being written. This dissent might have multiple authors, so it takes longer to get to a final product.
Possible but not likely considering the new make up of the SCOTUS. There are enough judges that are Pro 2A that want to fix things.

Denying a right is denying a right and they may only need one case to solve the problems of states rights and the 2A
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  #3020  
Old 04-20-2019, 11:48 AM
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Possible but not likely considering the new make up of the SCOTUS. There are enough judges that are Pro 2A that want to fix things.

Denying a right is denying a right and they may only need one case to solve the problems of states rights and the 2A
My concern is that CJ Roberts has gone squish. While it only takes 4 votes to grant a petition for cert, if you don't have 5 votes, why bring up the case to create a binding nation-wide precedent?
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  #3021  
Old 04-20-2019, 12:19 PM
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My concern is that CJ Roberts has gone squish. While it only takes 4 votes to grant a petition for cert, if you don't have 5 votes, why bring up the case to create a binding nation-wide precedent?
They wouldn't do that. They've been pushing 2A cases off for a reason. As upset as we've been, they've been patiently waiting to make the proper ruling. Had they done it before, it could have tarnished the 2A.

If they're taking cases now, it's because they're confident they'll set precedent.
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  #3022  
Old 04-20-2019, 12:23 PM
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My concern is that CJ Roberts has gone squish. While it only takes 4 votes to grant a petition for cert, if you don't have 5 votes, why bring up the case to create a binding nation-wide precedent?
Kennedy was the fly in the ointment
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  #3023  
Old 04-21-2019, 3:16 AM
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I don't want to be the skunk at the garden party, and I hope I am wrong, but.... The reason for the delay in entry of a result of the status conference could be a decision to deny that is having a dissent being written. This dissent might have multiple authors, so it takes longer to get to a final product.
This would not be consistent with SCOTUS' recent actions regarding cert denial dissents.
Normally the case would be relisted numerous times followed by the dissent.
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  #3024  
Old 04-21-2019, 6:42 AM
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This would not be consistent with SCOTUS' recent actions regarding cert denial dissents.
Normally the case would be relisted numerous times followed by the dissent.
I agree. I don't want to get overly optimistic, but this is definitely different.
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  #3025  
Old 04-21-2019, 9:27 AM
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Maybe they can’t make a decision because RBG keeps on calling in sick as she seeking treatment.
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  #3026  
Old 04-21-2019, 12:40 PM
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About 17 hours to go!

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  #3027  
Old 04-21-2019, 6:27 PM
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Originally Posted by aBrowningfan View Post
My concern is that CJ Roberts has gone squish. While it only takes 4 votes to grant a petition for cert, if you don't have 5 votes, why bring up the case to create a binding nation-wide precedent?
I am concerned about Roberts in general but when it comes to Pena or the NY case I am not. A couple things to consider:

John Paul Stevens, who wrote the dissent in Heller, published in his book or for a newspaper interview (I can't remember which), that he convinced Kennedy to only sign onto Heller if certain language was added. For example, the line quoted by all gun control advocates about the 2nd amendment not protecting carrying in sensitive places. If it wasn't for Kennedy flip-flopping, that language would have never made it into Heller. Scalia had to add that in order to keep the 5-4 majority. This is a good indication that Kennedy was the hold out vote from 2008-2018 and it was not Roberts.

If you read the oral argument transcript in Heller, he refers to a history and tradition test a handful of times during questioning. This is a good indication that he believes that is the correct standard. He did talk about the a law banning guns in market places during the 18th century, so a law like that one would be presumptively lawful nowadays. Not the greatest news for carry, but it does mean CA could have a shall issue CCW like Illinois does one day. Basically you can carry walking your dog and driving too and from places, but you won't be able to carry in schools, court houses, events, public markets, city owned shopping centers, etc.

Roberts overall voting record is far more conservative than people claim, because he has had a few high profile cases where he swung the other way. Forgetting Obamacare, his recent denial of abortion cases or allowing certain laws to stand (respecting stare decisis), is not an indication that how he will vote when one of those cases finally reaches SCOTUS. I think he is trying way too hard to make the court seem middle of the road and favorable to the public, but when the time comes for moderately conservative decisions, he will follow through assuming there is evidence that he would in the past.

My hope in Roberts current abortion rulings (choosing to not intervene in cases while they play out in the lower courts), is that he is doing what will most likely benefit conservatives in the long run. Hold out for 6 conservative justices before turning over precedent or making controversial decisions. That would be the smartest thing to do, because with a 5-4 majority, the left will destroy conservatives in an election if their "right" to kill a baby is overturned. A 6-3 decisions allows those cases to stand for much longer.



Regarding Pena- if the supreme court is holding Pena while NY plays out, then they are almost certainly setting a standard for review in that case, and not trying to overturn a super obscure law with a very narrow decision that will have about as much impact as Caentano did.

Last edited by wireless; 04-21-2019 at 6:30 PM..
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  #3028  
Old 04-21-2019, 6:39 PM
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Roberts is a virtual clone (90% agreement) with Kennedy. That's a problem in my book. He only agrees with Thomas 79% of the time. Gorsuch is still too new to judge agreement.

https://www.scotusblog.com/statistics/

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Old 04-21-2019, 7:43 PM
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About 17 hours to go!


What happens in 17 hours? Or less now actually.
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Old 04-21-2019, 8:31 PM
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What happens in 17 hours? Or less now actually.
I think there may possibly be an update on this case from the 4/18 conference published at 6:30am PT.
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Old 04-22-2019, 5:23 AM
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  #3032  
Old 04-22-2019, 5:43 AM
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Still nothing.
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Old 04-22-2019, 6:20 AM
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Set aside $$$ for off-roster firearms purchase & a portion of charitable money to CalGunsFoundation. Always wanted a Ruger Charger.
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Old 04-22-2019, 8:40 AM
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This is actually better than getting relisted multiple times and then forgotten. But I wish we could know more.
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Old 04-22-2019, 8:40 AM
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Originally Posted by CCWFacts View Post
Some recent analysis of number of relists and chances of cert.

It seems like one or two relists is good, and most cases that are accepted have had a relist or two but more than two is not good.


Of course gun cases are special and the court is timid.
1 week to go!

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  #3036  
Old 04-22-2019, 9:29 AM
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This is actually better than getting relisted multiple times and then forgotten. But I wish we could know more.
I don't recall any re-lists "falling into a black hole" like this has. Isn't this more characteristic of a denial with an attached dissent? Of course, there's also the possibility of holding it until NYSRPA, but wouldn't its status be updated even then?
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Old 04-22-2019, 9:30 AM
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Grab your tinfoil or tea leaves...


An update on NYSRPA v NYC is set for 5/7 from SCOTUS. Perhaps an update on Pena will follow.
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Old 04-22-2019, 10:15 AM
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I don't recall any re-lists "falling into a black hole" like this has. Isn't this more characteristic of a denial with an attached dissent? Of course, there's also the possibility of holding it until NYSRPA, but wouldn't its status be updated even then?

The last time I followed a case on that website, I remember it getting relisted numerous times and then not taken up. This is the first time I’ve seen this happen. Maybe people that follow this more have an idea. But that original email that was deleted from Alan Gura seemed like something bigger was going to happen with this. I’m not sure how he would know, probably just him being familiar with the different patterns of how the courts act and react.
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Old 04-22-2019, 11:07 AM
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Is it possible that SCOTUS could be working on a Summary Reversal?

Understand, I'm not claiming any particular insight and I certainly have no insider information.

But if his case sort of disappeared I'd imagine that Gura might inquire as to what had happened and it is possible that someone in the SCOTUS infrastructure could have told him that the case was not killed but that a different avenue was being taken.

A Summary Reversal might fit into that - or it might not.
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Old 04-22-2019, 11:40 AM
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Yes it’s possible but unlikely considering all of the current factors like NY case, court composition, and previous lower court opinions. I think they will want to clarify the standard of review for 2A cases.
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